Lemen Russ update needed?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**ImpGuardPanzies**

Lumbering Behemeth: let your tank kick @$$ over every other vehical in the army, shoot ordinance and all other weapons. USELESS IN NEW EDITION

Tanks can now shoot ordinance and then shoot others are snap shots...Lumbering butt-kicker should be updated to give the lemen russ its special spunk back. I'm not saying that the tank sucks now, and it certinly still has advantages over other armies, however, the rule that it used to have, applies to ALL vehicals of ALL armies, kinda useless. I think the fix is to fire at non-bs1. go to firing at normal bs. Any ideas? Again, sorry to anyone who has already posted this idea. I dont brouse this area of the forum much

**DarknessEternal**

Any ideas? Yes, suck it up.

Lots of units lose their specialness in edition changes.

**Shas'o_Longshot**

Flickerfields are now pretty useless unless yourskimmer is sitting still. Disruption pods the same.

Just cope with old rules

**Buttons**

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:Flickerfields are now pretty useless unless yourskimmer is sitting still. Disruption pods the same.

Just cope with old rules

Or you know, you could make house rules so that your rules are still useful. I don't understand the opposition to this, if you care so much about your flickerfields or disruption pods you can make house rules for them.

**ArbitorIan**

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:Flickerfields are now pretty useless unless yourskimmer is sitting still. Disruption pods the same.

Just cope with old rules

Hold on - why are disruption pods now useless??

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

Its not useless. You can fire you turret weapon in addition to any other weapon you may normally fire. So you fire your Hull weapon at normal BS if you move. Ohs no according to the rulebook you can't fire the big gun since its a blast. Well your codex says otherwise. And Codex overrules BRB.

**Valkyrie**

I'm with the notion that you should just suck it up and deal with it.

**Buttons**

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Its not useless. You can fire you turret weapon in addition to any other weapon you may normally fire. So you fire your Hull weapon at normal BS if you move. Ohs no according to the rulebook you can't fire the big gun since its a blast. Well your codex says otherwise. And Codex overrules BRB.

Honestly this is how I have been playing it.

**Shas'o_Longshot**

ArbitorIan wrote:
Shas'o_Longshot wrote:Flickerfields are now pretty useless unless yourskimmer is sitting still. Disruption pods the same.

Just cope with old rules

Hold on - why are disruption pods now useless??

Unless I'm mistaken, DPs grant Obscured. Obscured is a 5+ cover save, which is the same as the Jink save you get from moving. There's really no downside to moving (Devilfish have a single weapon, the Piranha will ALWAYS be moving and the Hammerhead is usually carrying a main weapon firing against targets the secondary weapon won't hurt) unless you're a Hammerhead/Ion Cannon/Burst cannons.

But seriously, house rules are fine if you have a coherent group of players. Something gives me the feeling if I approached my GW store and requested that I get a 4+ cover against every opponent that walked in off the street I'd be laughed out of the place, and my local GW is a pretty easygoing place.

Also I feel kind of insulted any guard player thinks they need this

**kenshin620**

Leman russes are quite fine in this edition

I mean no half S shots with blasts? Yes please

**liquidjoshi**

Buttons wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Its not useless. You can fire you turret weapon in addition to any other weapon you may normally fire. So you fire your Hull weapon at normal BS if you move. Ohs no according to the rulebook you can't fire the big gun since its a blast. Well your codex says otherwise. And Codex overrules BRB.

Honestly this is how I have been playing it.

Same here.

**Buttons**

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
Also I feel kind of insulted any guard player thinks they need this

I just like it because it is a fun rule. Isn't like I am taking things specifically to win anyway, very rarely take vets and generally give them something that is a waste of points like carapace armour when I do, don'y own a single vendetta or manticore. TBH if an IG player is WAAC all they need is CCS for HQ, Mech Vets for troops, vendettas for FA, and manticores and hydras for HS. I mean a Leman Russ is far from the most efficient choice anyway. Also, if I ever did start taking manticores I would probably make a house rule, perhaps 20 points cheaper and they get 1 shot instead of D3, or same price, 1 shot, and you can make a battery of them.

Manticores are rape machines this edition with the new rules regarding blast templates and vehicle penetration.

**HawaiiMatt**

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:Flickerfields are now pretty useless unless yourskimmer is sitting still. Disruption pods the same.

Just cope with old rules

You're not forced to buy Disruption pods though, and the flicker fields are only on venoms.
The thing with the Russ is that it is a slower more stable tank; able to dish out more shots but unable to move fast.
Now it's just slow.

I think it's like how the tau got boned with the target lock. Snipe Drones were priced with an abiltity that they lost for no apparent reason.
The only thing sponsons do now is give you a few more weapons to randomize between when you take a weapon destroyed hit.
It's made the marginal tank choices (punisher, executioner) a much worse choice, as they depended on the volume of fire from pintle, hull and sponson weapons.

For those that like the suck it up approach, that's fine. Just expect to see nothing but the Basic Russ or Demolisher.

-Matt

**kenshin620**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Just expect to see nothing but the Basic Russ or Demolisher.

Just like last edition?

**Eiluj The Farseer**

DarknessEternal wrote:Any ideas? Yes, suck it up.

Lots of units lose their specialness in edition changes.

I think that is a little harsh, the whole purpose of the Proposed rules is to propose things we would like to see, saying 'suck it up and deal' is not an answer to that...
I do think it will change what you bring to the table now for Russes, I think the punisher now is a better machine as even if it is shaken you can snapfire everything, vs templates you can not
It is true that older codexes need updating and rules may not really be needed anymore, but it is typical GW fashion, I am still waiting for a Tau and Eldar codex, at least IG has a kick ass flyer and I am not talking about the Valkyrie.

I do not think flicker fields are useless, it alows you to take a 'jink save' without having to snap fire next shooting phase which is big BS1 vs 4 for Dark Eldar is huge, would I put flicker fields on everything? Hell no, but on your flyer and on a transport with 10 Kabalites with gun racks to make them basically twin linked, you're darn tootin I am taking it

**chrisrawr**

Jink doesn't require you to snapfire unless you're a Flyer. Since all DE vehicles are Fast, they don't even care if they've moved combat or not. Since most other skimmers are fast, or only have 1 main weapon, they also don't care about moving for jink.

**ImpGuardPanzies**

Buttons wrote:
Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
Also I feel kind of insulted any guard player thinks they need this

I just like it because it is a fun rule. Isn't like I am taking things specifically to win anyway, very rarely take vets and generally give them something that is a waste of points like carapace armour when I do, don'y own a single vendetta or manticore. TBH if an IG player is WAAC all they need is CCS for HQ, Mech Vets for troops, vendettas for FA, and manticores and hydras for HS. I mean a Leman Russ is far from the most efficient choice anyway. Also, if I ever did start taking manticores I would probably make a house rule, perhaps 20 points cheaper and they get 1 shot instead of D3, or same price, 1 shot, and you can make a battery of them.

Manticores are rape machines this edition with the new rules regarding blast templates and vehicle penetration.

Buttons: my standard lists include 2 Lemen, 2 vendetta, manticore. they work well together, and if manticore was ap3 it would surely be a fearsome combination. I think the Lemen is eficiant for its points cost, 150pts gives you a high AV, kickbutt weapon, and HB or HF. Durable, portable, deadly. Best a hydra can do is kill 7 people (both AC and HB) Battle tank at best (this is a guess) 6-7 idiots cramme dunder a template and 3 w the HB, or HF. Granted you can take 2 hydra for 1 Lemen, but thats another vehical and leaves a larger footprint on the feild. Makes it apear to be a larger threat than it is, especially if it isnt needed w 2 vendettas covering the anti air.

Im not at all saying that i NEED this rule. I'm saying that new rules made the russ loose some spunk in that department. Although the new blast rules have changed, and that helps.

I'm also not saying that tau and eldar shouldnt be changed. I think that tau stealth squads got jipped a little, but are now better when outflanking in small numbers.

As far as flicker fields go, it was a nice perk, that hopefully will be brought back ( or will still be played depending on how rule addicted your opponent is)
This was a thread about thwe Lemen Russ, I dont want anyone to be confused and think im saying" screw all other armies, tough for them, mine is best and wins, so get over yourselves" Because thats not at all whats going on here.

**kinratha**

Lumbering bohemeth lets you fire the turret weapon at 6+ inch movement, so you can still fire its main gun and a sponsune at normal ballistic skill, then snap shot the other weapons if you have any. It hasn't changed.

**Buttons**

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:
Buttons wrote:
Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
Also I feel kind of insulted any guard player thinks they need this

I just like it because it is a fun rule. Isn't like I am taking things specifically to win anyway, very rarely take vets and generally give them something that is a waste of points like carapace armour when I do, don'y own a single vendetta or manticore. TBH if an IG player is WAAC all they need is CCS for HQ, Mech Vets for troops, vendettas for FA, and manticores and hydras for HS. I mean a Leman Russ is far from the most efficient choice anyway. Also, if I ever did start taking manticores I would probably make a house rule, perhaps 20 points cheaper and they get 1 shot instead of D3, or same price, 1 shot, and you can make a battery of them.

Manticores are rape machines this edition with the new rules regarding blast templates and vehicle penetration.

Buttons: my standard lists include 2 Lemen, 2 vendetta, manticore. they work well together, and if manticore was ap3 it would surely be a fearsome combination. I think the Lemen is eficiant for its points cost, 150pts gives you a high AV, kickbutt weapon, and HB or HF. Durable, portable, deadly. Best a hydra can do is kill 7 people (both AC and HB) Battle tank at best (this is a guess) 6-7 idiots cramme dunder a template and 3 w the HB, or HF. Granted you can take 2 hydra for 1 Lemen, but thats another vehical and leaves a larger footprint on the feild. Makes it apear to be a larger threat than it is, especially if it isnt needed w 2 vendettas covering the anti air.

Im not at all saying that i NEED this rule. I'm saying that new rules made the russ loose some spunk in that department. Although the new blast rules have changed, and that helps.

I'm also not saying that tau and eldar shouldnt be changed. I think that tau stealth squads got jipped a little, but are now better when outflanking in small numbers.

As far as flicker fields go, it was a nice perk, that hopefully will be brought back ( or will still be played depending on how rule addicted your opponent is)
This was a thread about thwe Lemen Russ, I dont want anyone to be confused and think im saying" screw all other armies, tough for them, mine is best and wins, so get over yourselves" Because thats not at all whats going on here.

I'm not saying a Russ is a bad choice, just that it isn't the most efficient use of points. Honestly the only Guard unit that is really bad are Ratlings, and that is only because sniper rifles suck, even Ogryn, Storm troopers, and Armoured Sentinels are just less efficient than other options. One of the good and bad things about Guard, it is a great army for new players since almost any list is playable, but it means that making a cheesy list is so much easier.

**ImpGuardPanzies**

There are so many options and ways to play guard. I love sentinels, I wish they were just a little better though. Gunlines w a couple support sents, or mech guard w a sent of 2 walking along w multilaser or PC. Rush guard, outflank.

So many options

**Stormtrooper520**

kinratha wrote:Lumbering bohemeth lets you fire the turret weapon at 6+ inch movement, so you can still fire its main gun and a sponsune at normal ballistic skill, then snap shot the other weapons if you have any. It hasn't changed.

^ This guy speaks the truth. No changes.

**portugus**

^ Concur. Thats how I play'em.

**McGibs**

If anything, Lumbering Behemoth got better. Russes are now more nimble than ever before! Move 6 +d6 inches, then flat out 6 inches. Handy for scooting away from assaulters for a turn.

As other people have stated, you can fire both the turret weapon, and one additional as normal. If you're shooting everything snapfire, you're doing it wrong.

**valace2**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Shas'o_Longshot wrote:Flickerfields are now pretty useless unless yourskimmer is sitting still. Disruption pods the same.

Just cope with old rules

You're not forced to buy Disruption pods though, and the flicker fields are only on venoms.
The thing with the Russ is that it is a slower more stable tank; able to dish out more shots but unable to move fast.
Now it's just slow.

I think it's like how the tau got boned with the target lock. Snipe Drones were priced with an abiltity that they lost for no apparent reason.
The only thing sponsons do now is give you a few more weapons to randomize between when you take a weapon destroyed hit.
It's made the marginal tank choices (punisher, executioner) a much worse choice, as they depended on the volume of fire from pintle, hull and sponson weapons.

For those that like the suck it up approach, that's fine. Just expect to see nothing but the Basic Russ or Demolisher.

-Matt

I like the Executioner just fine, it is a terminator killing machine and it can't get hot, the side sponson plasma cannons might not be the best choice anymore, but the heavy bolters are cheaper anyway.

**Neighbor Kid**

I truly think the Russ needs to be updated along with various other vehicles..... heres my proposal for the russ.

LR MBT/ Vanquisher/ Exterminator/ Conqueror - F 14 Side 13 Rear 11 4 HP BS3

LR Demolisher/ Punisher/ Executioner- F 14 Side 14 Rear 11 5HP BS3 These are all close support tanks and in the older books the demolisher was built for taking fire and getting close. it used to be in city fights and shots at the tank from above all resulted on the side when all other tanks were rear.

MBT - 155
Demo- 170
Punisher-175
Exterminator- 160
Executioner- 200
Vanquisher-170
Conqueror-150

Lumbering Behemoth-
-8+D6 To take away the 6+D + flat out 6 to be possibly 18... its a heavy tank.. it will be slower then most.
- Move 6 inches and fire all weapons at full BS
-
"They 're coming from all directions!!!" if sponsons are purchased they grant the tank overwatch ( including the hull weapon! If in arc) ( really should be for all tanks with "sponson" classed weapons)

Now for tank specific rules.

MBT- none. This is your all around tank you fall too when in a pinch.
DEMO- None- This is a ST 10 tank made for seiges in old editions .. its balanced. as per my rules.
Exterminator- Skyfire/ Interceptor rules for 5 points train crew

Executioner- Plasma coolers- This tank was made eons ago.. it has the technology of the long time ago.. thus has coolors so instead of resulting on a -1 HP for sponson plasma weapons ( as the executioner plasma does not get not) should no longer suffer this problem and only result in the weapon no firing.

Vanquisher- AP shell hits at St 8 + 2D6, OR and HE shell at ST 8 AP 4 or 5 if you think its too OP( to be considerate that this is meant to be a tank destroyer)

Punisher- Skyfire/ Interceptor for 5 points. train crew. Incendiary punisher ammo- 40 points Shots are at ST4 AP 5 No cover save as the area covered by this deadly hail of bolts are essentially fireballs when they hit. ( this is not a for fetched idea.. Bolters fire RPG bullets that detonate after penetration) .....

Conqueror - St 7 AP4 Conqueror battle cannon
- Enhanced Gyrostabilizers : This system grants the Leman russ Conqueror to fire its main weapon at cruising speed. This is to show that the lighter weight of the shell with enhanced gyrostabilizers affords better ability to remain on target compared to the heavier Battle tank shells weight. Shooting at crusiering speed you do not subtract BS when firing the main gun. At combat speed the blast can scatter 1D6 instead of the normal 2 <- this is what the tank was made for back in 2nd edition.. move and shoot main gun.. just thought id bring a comeback for it.

**Valkyrie**

Neighbor Kid wrote:I truly think the Russ needs to be updated along with various other vehicles..... heres my proposal for the russ.

LR MBT/ Vanquisher/ Exterminator/ Conqueror - F 14 Side 13 Rear 11 4 HP BS3

LR Demolisher/ Punisher/ Executioner- F 14 Side 14 Rear 11 5HP BS3 These are all close support tanks and in the older books the demolisher was built for taking fire and getting close. it used to be in city fights and shots at the tank from above all resulted on the side when all other tanks were rear.

5 HP? You have to be kidding. 3 is plenty on any variant. Remember that these tanks can be taken in squadrons as well.

MBT - 155
Demo- 170
Punisher-175
Exterminator- 160
Executioner- 200
Vanquisher-170
Conqueror-150

Exterminator and Punisher seem a bit overpriced IMO

Lumbering Behemoth-
-8+D6 To take away the 6+D + flat out 6 to be possibly 18... its a heavy tank.. it will be slower then most.
- Move 6 inches and fire all weapons at full BS
-
"They 're coming from all directions!!!" if sponsons are purchased they grant the tank overwatch ( including the hull weapon! If in arc) ( really should be for all tanks with "sponson" classed weapons)

Don't see why this vehicle in particular gets overwatch.

Now for tank specific rules.

MBT- none. This is your all around tank you fall too when in a pinch.
DEMO- None- This is a ST 10 tank made for seiges in old editions .. its balanced. as per my rules.

Exterminator- Skyfire/ Interceptor rules for 5 points train crew
Good idea, I'd say downgrade the cost of the Exterminator and give it Skyfire/Interceptor for 15-20pts.

Executioner- Plasma coolers- This tank was made eons ago.. it has the technology of the long time ago.. thus has coolors so instead of resulting on a -1 HP for sponson plasma weapons ( as the executioner plasma does not get not) should no longer suffer this problem and only result in the weapon no firing.

The main fluff behind the Executioner was that it was notorious for overheating. Surely an earlier design would mean that cooling tech would have improved since then?

Vanquisher- AP shell hits at St 8 + 2D6, OR and HE shell at ST 8 AP 4 or 5 if you think its too OP( to be considerate that this is meant to be a tank destroyer)

I would keep it as it is. S8 Ap2 2D6, but I woudl also add an option for a Co-Axial Autocannon or Heavy Stubber

Punisher- Skyfire/ Interceptor for 5 points. train crew. Incendiary punisher ammo- 40 points Shots are at ST4 AP 5 No cover save as the area covered by this deadly hail of bolts are essentially fireballs when they hit. ( this is not a for fetched idea.. Bolters fire RPG bullets that detonate after penetration) .....

I can't see this one being an AA vehicle. Sure, the Exterminator's Autocannons act like Hydra Autocannons but this is more akin to a minigun. 40pts to ignore cover is a lot. I would suggest that the weapon should have some sort of effect to Pinning tests, how about "For every casualty caused by the Punisher Cannon, the enemy suffers a -1 penalty to their Pinning test. Even though it's 20 shots, let's face it, with no Ap value you won't be killing whole squads anytime soon.

Conqueror - St 7 AP4 Conqueror battle cannon
- Enhanced Gyrostabilizers : This system grants the Leman russ Conqueror to fire its main weapon at cruising speed. This is to show that the lighter weight of the shell with enhanced gyrostabilizers affords better ability to remain on target compared to the heavier Battle tank shells weight. Shooting at crusiering speed you do not subtract BS when firing the main gun. At combat speed the blast can scatter 1D6 instead of the normal 2 <- this is what the tank was made for back in 2nd edition.. move and shoot main gun.. just thought id bring a comeback for it.

I would just rather not move as much and keep the S8 Ap3 large blast. To make this variant a viable choice, you'd have to reduce the points a lot, remove some of the sponson options to keep it akin to a faster, lighter variant, although I'd say that just making the main gun Heavy 2, Blast would be fine enough.

As for the Annihilator, that could just be fixed by upgrading the Lascannon turret to Heavy 2, Twin Linked.

**Buttons**

Neighbor Kid wrote:LR MBT/ Vanquisher/ Exterminator/ Conqueror - F 14 Side 13 Rear 11 4 HP BS3

Why? No one refuses to take the Vanquisher or Conqueror because they are too soft, they refuse to take them because they don't do as much damage as the LRBT or they are inferior at their niche role to various other units. The exterminator is simply redundant most of the time with the dozens of ways to get autocannons, from chimeras, to basic squads, to HWS.

LR Demolisher/ Punisher/ Executioner- F 14 Side 14 Rear 11 5HP BS3 These are all close support tanks and in the older books the demolisher was built for taking fire and getting close. it used to be in city fights and shots at the tank from above all resulted on the side when all other tanks were rear.

All Russ versions have equal protection on the side as a medium tank (Predator, Hammerhead), so that doesn't need to be improved, and RA 11 already represents the boosted armour. Also, why would they get 5 hull points? I can understand them having as many as a land raider since they are the heaviest vehicles in the game after Land Raiders and Monoliths, but 5? IIRC super heavies have 3 HP per structure point, which would mean that they would have almost as many as a Macharius. I already take Demolishers, I hate executioners and view them as redundant and overpriced, but still, with side armour 14 and 5 hull points they would be a complete no brainer.

MBT - 155
Demo- 170
Punisher-175
Exterminator- 160
Executioner- 200
Vanquisher-170
Conqueror-150

LOL, yeah lets make one of the most redundant vehicles in the codex (Vanquisher) cost 170 points before upgrades. Besides that most variants are greatly undercosted.

-"They 're coming from all directions!!!" if sponsons are purchased they grant the tank overwatch ( including the hull weapon! If in arc) ( really should be for all tanks with "sponson" classed weapons)

Why are your tanks getting assaulted so much that you want this as a special rule? You should protect them with some infantry, whether mechanized vets, foot slogging infantry, or mechanized infantry squads.

Executioner- Plasma coolers- This tank was made eons ago.. it has the technology of the long time ago.. thus has coolors so instead of resulting on a -1 HP for sponson plasma weapons ( as the executioner plasma does not get not) should no longer suffer this problem and only result in the weapon no firing.

Who would pay 240 points for 5 small blast templates anyway?

Vanquisher- AP shell hits at St 8 + 2D6, OR and HE shell at ST 8 AP 4 or 5 if you think its too OP( to be considerate that this is meant to be a tank destroyer)

Honestly the Vanquisher should simply be priced less than the LRBT, even if not by much, it will never be a truly efficient option until it is priced less than the LRBT.

Honestly the only variants that actually need improvement are the Punisher, Eradicator, Vanquisher, and Executioner, and all of them sans the Eradicator can be made better options simply by minor price decreases. Would it be nice if a Vanquisher could fire HE shells? Sure. Would it make me more inclined to take it? Not really. I spend the entire game firing my Vanquisher at vehicles, hell it takes 3-4 turns on average to kill an AV 14 vehicle outright simply because of the low BS. The only one that can be improved with rules is the Vanquisher and all you would need to do is make it AP 1.

**liquidjoshi**

I think that the rules for Russes are fine. For the Conqueror check forge world. The battle cannon is a heavy large blast weapon with 48" range, meaning (at least in 5th) that it could move and shoot without needing (or having) Lumbering Behemoth. It could outpace russes and keep up with other vehicles just fine. The Annihilator is also covered by forge world.

**Steve steveson**

Valkyrie wrote:
The main fluff behind the Executioner was that it was notorious for overheating. Surely an earlier design would mean that cooling tech would have improved since then?

Innovation is Heresy.

**Blacksails**

Russes are fine. The only thing they could use is 4HP like most vehicles with an AV of 14 somewhere, but otherwise, perfectly fine.

I also don't understand how people are getting all confused about Lumbering Behemoth. As above, quite simple, and works just like it used to. Now you have the additional option of snap-firing non blast/template weapons you bought (sponson bolters, stubbers, etc.).