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On overwatch, with Shootas, it'd probably be 20 hits, no?

120/60 = 20 hits, 10 wounds, almost 2 dead Termies.

Then the 30 Shoota boys hit with 2 attacks each (if they are vanilla terminators), for 30 hits, 15 wounds, and that's 2.5 dead.

Then you get .5 - 1 terminators to swing back.

Though, really, anyone charging a mob of shoota boys with Terminators is asking for it. You should only charge severly weakened squads of Orks, and even better if you relegate Terminators to counter Nobz.

And really, if you are letting a mob of 30 boyz stand as a Space Marine player, you are doing a bad job. There might be 10 Boyz left a marine player is thinning the herd properly. (shooting the boyz off the board until they are 18" away, especially now that you can step back and fire full range now!)

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:who cares about 2+ don't even need ap2 weps.

Terminators have and always will go down to mass small arms fire.

30 Shoota Boyz - 60 shots + overwatch bye terminators

10 hits, 5 wounds, slightly less than one dead Terminator. Then what?

120 shots = 10 hits?

How do you roll - spack handed?

I didn't think you meant for the Orks to move into charge range, shoot the Terminators and then not charge. Seriously, what kind of Ork player gives away the charge?

haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

mcpothead wrote:who cares about 2+ don't even need ap2 weps.

Terminators have and always will go down to mass small arms fire.

30 Shoota Boyz - 60 shots + overwatch bye terminators

To clarify

(in your shooting phase) 60 shots- 20 hits- 10 wounds-1 dead term
(my shooting phase) 10 s4 shots 6 hits 3 dead
(my charge phase)54 shots-9 hits-4.5 wounds-1dead

then weight of attacks grinds down.

but that is a poor example because DW will never take on an ork mob with one unit

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

Won't happen i will take out about 10 from shootin hit you with a LC squad and librarian and watch as you are down to 5 and you can't kill me. Trust me there is a reason why deathwing is still viable.

captain collius wrote:

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

Won't happen i will take out about 10 from shootin hit you with a LC squad and librarian and watch as you are down to 5 and you can't kill me. Trust me there is a reason why deathwing is still viable.

Who's talking about deathwing?

I'm talking about 1 squad of terminators vs 1 squad of shoota boyz

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

Because the game isn't played in a vacuum.

mcpothead wrote:

I'm talking about 1 squad of terminators vs 1 squad of shoota boyz

Fair enough, both squads clearly have the same goal and are most likely to fight each other in an actual batte.

Kevlar wrote:

spaceelf wrote:At the moment the army to beat is Necrons. I don't think that Terminators are especially good against them.

Necrons have almost no AP2 shooting, and the only strong infantry unit, wraiths, are hard countered by terminators. Heavy terminator armies are going to give wraiths a lot of problems, especially armies like chaos that can outfit their terminators with nice bonuses, and put reaper autocannons on characters for picking out pesky necron crypteks and lords.

I don't need AP 2/1 weapons to kill Termies when I'm putting out 160 shots every turn.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

Because the game isn't played in a vacuum.

Thank you. So many people forget this.

Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

Relapse wrote:Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

5+ invulnerable save, but you're point is taken. I really like the Flamers from the WD update for Daemons.

Relapse wrote:Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

Take it you ma Invul., but in most cases Terminators will have a 3+, not a 5+.

A loganwing this edition pretty much won't sweat anything from horde to hybrid.

Death wing, Logan wing and GK termi armies are gonna be tough cookies to crack.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Relapse wrote:Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

Take it you ma Invul., but in most cases Terminators will have a 3+, not a 5+.

In which case the flamers hang back at max range with pink horrors taking terminators out with volume of fire while heralds mutate any that survive, and screamers come in to clean up what's left.

Lokas wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Lokas wrote:Dark Harliestars, the infamous Nob Bikers, etcetera. They truly are the best CC units this edition.

And at 500+ points for one of these things, they fething well better be.

And with a teeny bit of mobility your archon is suddenly not the closest model, and your harlies get eaten veeery quickly. Nob bikers are comparable to terminators, because they are tough and heavy hitting individuals.

Emphasis mine.

Yes, you can outmaneuver and shoot up a harliestar. It's still one of (if not the) best close combat units in the game.

Yes, but if ye cannot get it to CC, it's not a good CC unit is it

Honestly, I play nids and I make quick work of terminators with gene stealers, other than that I have monstrous creatures to deal with them. If our not playing nids though putting enough wounds on them from anywhere, close combat or shooting, termies will die.

How many armies relied on power weapons to down termies anyway?
GK maybe which I guess every other player was playing, but they have mostly changed to necrons.

Do I have to reminisce about 5th edition where you would have to rapid fire termies to death with tactical squads.

I disagree with terminators becoming the king of 6th. Some armies may have trouble with them as they always have, however armies like guard still have the demolishers and executioners which got better. A terminator heavy list will suffer to armies with a few of these units. The other problem been that demolishers have enough uses to warrent taking them in many lists. I think this is the counter that will stop termies been king.

That said, many armies will still be packing huge amounts of high strength ap2 from the mech armies of 5th.

They way I see it, Terminators got their tactical dreadnaught armored asses handed to them by Boyz, long before power weapons were AP3. So it hasnt changed my attack plan on them at all.

To be honest, the new snap fire rules are great and the bane of Terminators. If you take the ork approach of just hurling enough shots at them, regardless of BS you will eventually take them down.

Last weeks game, I had my full tactical squad rock up in a Rhino, on a 5 man Grey Knights Terminator squad. Got out, riddled them with Rapid fire, from 8 Bolters, bolt pistol and a snap fire Heavy Bolter. Killed 3 of them, then next turn the last two charged my unit, once again my unit Rapid fired with BS 2, and the Flamer and Sgt Combi-Flamer unleashed as did the Heavy Bolter. GK's are dead. To quote this website....MOAR DAKKA.

I would never have tried that in 5th, but snap fire and getting to shoot them during the assault is awesome. Tactical Squads are alot more powerful than ever, and I am going to be running lists with 4 Tactical Squads from now on, the sheer number of Bolter shots is brilliant.

Terminators? meh, I'll take 10 x Sternguard with combi-flamers/melta's & Hellfire rounds please!

mcpothead wrote:As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

QFT

They can deliver a scary amount of firepower in overwatch.

Relapse wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Relapse wrote:Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

Take it you ma Invul., but in most cases Terminators will have a 3+, not a 5+.

In which case the flamers hang back at max range with pink horrors taking terminators out with volume of fire while heralds mutate any that survive, and screamers come in to clean up what's left.

Because your whole army exists in a vacumm with that single unit of Terminators who for some reason brought no army with them

mwnciboo wrote:To be honest, the new snap fire rules are great and the bane of Terminators. If you take the ork approach of just hurling enough shots at them, regardless of BS you will eventually take them down.

Last weeks game, I had my full tactical squad rock up in a Rhino, on a 5 man Grey Knights Terminator squad. Got out, riddled them with Rapid fire, from 8 Bolters, bolt pistol and a snap fire Heavy Bolter. Killed 3 of them, then next turn the last two charged my unit, once again my unit Rapid fired with BS 2, and the Flamer and Sgt Combi-Flamer unleashed as did the Heavy Bolter. GK's are dead. To quote this website....MOAR DAKKA.

I would never have tried that in 5th, but snap fire and getting to shoot them during the assault is awesome. Tactical Squads are alot more powerful than ever, and I am going to be running lists with 4 Tactical Squads from now on, the sheer number of Bolter shots is brilliant.

Terminators? meh, I'll take 10 x Sternguard with combi-flamers/melta's & Hellfire rounds please!

FYI snapfire is at BS1, so either you pushed the wrong button, or your using the wrong rules. So youd be hitting on a roll of 6, not 5+

Sry yeah my fault it was 6's, forgot it always adds upto 7. Yeah hitting on 6's = BS1, my error in typing, we did do the game properly only hitting on 6's.

I always killed terminators by volume of fire anyway.

First rule: If you can stop them from rolling do so. If you give them the chance to roll they can make anything(my friend made 3 6+s to save a unit that was holding the last objective with GTG in the open)
Second rule: if you cant stop them make them roll ALOT Eventually they will roll ones.

I think that the conclusion here is that they got a boost in 6th through changes in cover and PW Nerf.
Nothing more nothing less.

Well, again, its only a nerf to certain armies and units. As an Ork player, the terminator boost doesnt affect us at all. Our PK will still shred them and boyz/mass DAKKA will drop them like flies. So to other MEQ players and the like, sure they are tougher, to Ork players, nope, no difference