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Barksdale wrote:So if the dread, DC, and reclusiarch are inside the stormraven, they also get ignored.

No they are not ignored, as the Stormraven does not have to deep strike. It does have to start in reserves.

Barksdale wrote:It doesn't matter if the unit is a dedicated transport or not. The DS rule says that when determining how many units can go into reserve, units that must deepstrike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored. Again, models that are embarked upon them are ignored. So if the dread, DC, and reclusiarch are inside the stormraven, they also get ignored.

The only problem with fliers is when someone wants to bring an all flier list thanks to the auto-lose for no models on the table.

They are not ignored. Flyers start the game in Reserves not DS. The Stormraven has the option to DS but is not forced to so it follows the rules for units that must start in Reserves, not the rules for units that must arrive by DS.

Right, my mistake.

Captain Antivas wrote:What you are ignoring is the fact that ANY model embarked in a transport that must DS is ignored for the purpose of determining how many other units can DS. DS rules override Reserve rules. This includes an IC. If an IC joins a unit in a DP he, the pod, and the unit are ignored for the purposes of counting how many units may start in reserve.

What is wrong with the OPs list is that a Stormraven is not a DT and so the troops embarked in it count towards the total in reserves. Three units (Reclusiarch, Dread, DC) so one of them must start on the board. The only way it would work for them to be in the Stormraven is to have 2 other units start on the board.

The Stormraven is ignored because it must start in reserves, but the Dread and the DC are choosing to be in Reserves and cannot claim to be one unit since the Stormraven is not a DT. The Reclusiarch is an IC so he always counts as 1.

I am not ignoring this fact. What I am pointing out is you must determine the number of units you have before you can put units into reserves. The reason that the Drop pods and the units within them are not counted as the rules for Preparing Reserves states that they are not counted. Here, allow me to demonstrate.

You have built your Army Roster, its essentially this same list previously mentioned bar one addition. Another Chaplain, which counts as an HQ. We now have 10 units in this roster total. Now we move into the Preparing Reserves portion. We have already determined that 4 of these units are Dedicated Transports that must start the game in reserves. This now puts us at six units total for counting reserves. Next, we are going to assign four of the troops choices into these Dedicated Transports. This leaves us with two units for calculating the 50% reserves. We now move into deploying (as this rule happens before you deploy). You may now assign up to 50% of the units you have left to reserves. In this case, the Reclusiarch will go into the reserves, which then we attach to a unit, which allows him access to the Dedicated Transport, which states that they (the unit and Dedicated Transport) both come in at the same time. Due to the 50% section of Preparing Reserves, you must now field the Chaplain. It does not matter into the fact that you wanted to put the chaplain into a unit thats in reserves. Its an Independant Character thats outtlined by the rules of Preparing Reserves to count as its own unit, specifically for calculating to the 50%.

Now, since this list only has one HQ, half of 1 is .5. We are told in this instance to round up, thus allowing one unit into reserves. Which then allows the HQ into the unit, into the Dedicated Transports, which all come down together.


I hope this illustrates it for the folks that do not understand.

Just to throw a monkey wrench in this discussion...

While the Drop Pods MUST start in reserve..

The units inside them DO NOT... (as a DP may be empty)

SO by RAW, I would have to say that not all those units can ride inside their drop pods....

Landrain wrote:Just to throw a monkey wrench in this discussion...

While the Drop Pods MUST start in reserve..

The units inside them DO NOT... (as a DP may be empty)

SO by RAW, I would have to say that not all those units can ride inside their drop pods....

Re-read Page 36. Left Column, Deep Strike Section, 3rd Graph, 3rd sentence (Including the part in parenthesis)

It has info you may have missed.

yeah, my mistake there...

Xzerios wrote:I am not ignoring this fact. What I am pointing out is you must determine the number of units you have before you can put units into reserves. The reason that the Drop pods and the units within them are not counted as the rules for Preparing Reserves states that they are not counted. Here, allow me to demonstrate.

You have built your Army Roster, its essentially this same list previously mentioned bar one addition. Another Chaplain, which counts as an HQ. We now have 10 units in this roster total. Now we move into the Preparing Reserves portion. We have already determined that 4 of these units are Dedicated Transports that must start the game in reserves. This now puts us at six units total for counting reserves. Next, we are going to assign four of the troops choices into these Dedicated Transports. This leaves us with two units for calculating the 50% reserves. We now move into deploying (as this rule happens before you deploy). You may now assign up to 50% of the units you have left to reserves. In this case, the Reclusiarch will go into the reserves, which then we attach to a unit, which allows him access to the Dedicated Transport, which states that they (the unit and Dedicated Transport) both come in at the same time. Due to the 50% section of Preparing Reserves, you must now field the Chaplain. It does not matter into the fact that you wanted to put the chaplain into a unit thats in reserves. Its an Independant Character thats outtlined by the rules of Preparing Reserves to count as its own unit, specifically for calculating to the 50%.

Now, since this list only has one HQ, half of 1 is .5. We are told in this instance to round up, thus allowing one unit into reserves. Which then allows the HQ into the unit, into the Dedicated Transports, which all come down together.


I hope this illustrates it for the folks that do not understand.

No one is arguing against a single thing you said. I was actually answering the OP question when he asked if he could put the DC/Dread in a Stormraven. The answer is no, with the list he put up he cannot start the DC and Dread in the Stormraven.

Landrain wrote:Just to throw a monkey wrench in this discussion...

While the Drop Pods MUST start in reserve..

The units inside them DO NOT... (as a DP may be empty)

SO by RAW, I would have to say that not all those units can ride inside their drop pods....

You are correct. They may choose not to start the game in reserves, within their Dedicated Transport; In which case they would count towards the 50% rule. However, the goal the OP is looking to achieve is a full Reserve list. He wants to put them into the Dedicated Transport so they are not counted towards the total.

Captain Antivas wrote:
No one is arguing against a single thing you said. I was actually answering the OP question when he asked if he could put the DC/Dread in a Stormraven. The answer is no, with the list he put up he cannot start the DC and Dread in the Stormraven.

Understood. Carry on good sir. :3

Xzerios wrote:

Landrain wrote:Just to throw a monkey wrench in this discussion...

While the Drop Pods MUST start in reserve..

The units inside them DO NOT... (as a DP may be empty)

SO by RAW, I would have to say that not all those units can ride inside their drop pods....

You are correct. They may choose not to start the game in reserves, within their Dedicated Transport; In which case they would count towards the 50% rule. However, the goal the OP is looking to achieve is a full Reserve list. He wants to put them into the Dedicated Transport so they are not counted towards the total.

Maybe I don't understand what side you are on, but he is not correct. Re-read DS rules. Any unit that must DS and any model embarked are ignored for the purposes of determining how many units can be in Reserves. Any model. You could put 12 IC in a DP and not a single one of them would need to start on the board, or matter for the purpose of determining how many units must start on the board. The fact that they are there by choice is irrelevant, the rule says they are ignored.

The Stormraven is not a DT and doesn't have to DS so it falls under the Reserves rules and limitations. A DP has to DS so it follows the rules for DS, which are not the same.

The only hiccup to that Captain Antivas is that ICs dont have the Dedicated Transport option. They are not allowed to start in a Dedicated Transport (in this case, the Drop Pod), which would prevent them from being counted in the 50% tally. The way you get the ICs into the drop pod is by attaching them to a unit. You can attach them to said unit thats in reserves -after- you have tallied your Preparing Reserves 50%. The reason that the troops choices in this scenario are disbarred from the 50% tally is they have elected to start within the Drop Pod, which states that they are not counted towards this 50% total.

You do understand this correct? Your jumping the gun by going to page 36 and using the rules from that page (which are correct, whole unit comes down with the Drop Pod). At this stage of the game however, your still tallying your 50% to see what units must be fielded, and what units may start in the reserves (and thusly get attached to those units, with those Drop Pods, and all coming down together).

In the end however, page 36's Deep Strike rules will be used to pull this unit out of reserves. You need to figure out which units are allowed into reserves first before you attach ICs to units.

Xzerios, units embarked in a transport that must DS are ignored. Is the IC embarked in a vehicle that must DS? If yes, then he is ignored when determining how many units must start on the table.

Xzerios wrote:The only hiccup to that Captain Antivas is that ICs dont have the Dedicated Transport option. They are not allowed to start in a Dedicated Transport (in this case, the Drop Pod), which would prevent them from being counted in the 50% tally. The way you get the ICs into the drop pod is by attaching them to a unit. You can attach them to said unit thats in reserves -after- you have tallied your Preparing Reserves 50%. The reason that the troops choices in this scenario are disbarred from the 50% tally is they have elected to start within the Drop Pod, which states that they are not counted towards this 50% total.

You do understand this correct? Your jumping the gun by going to page 36 and using the rules from that page (which are correct, whole unit comes down with the Drop Pod). At this stage of the game however, your still tallying your 50% to see what units must be fielded, and what units may start in the reserves (and thusly get attached to those units, with those Drop Pods, and all coming down together).

In the end however, page 36's Deep Strike rules will be used to pull this unit out of reserves. You need to figure out which units are allowed into reserves first before you attach ICs to units.

The rules say nothing about having your tally on the army list before the game starts. It simply says that you must deploy 50% of your army and the rest can be in reserves. The final tally is not relevant until you deploy your units or place them in reserves. It is a good idea to know what you are doing beforehand just to ensure there are no surprises when it is game time, but that puts no restriction on when you must have the decision made other than when you deploy.

People, yall are correct. Every last thing your saying is correct.


You miss the point however. Preparing Reserves brings these things to bear as you are deploying your army.

Units that start the game in Reserves are not counted towards the 50% tally

Units in Transports are a single unit for calculating the 50% tally

Independent Characters are not part of any unit prior to calculating the 50% tally

Second Paragraph outlines what you may do with your units after you have calculated the 50% tally and have your units that are fielded and in reserves

Independent Characters and Characters at this point are now eligible to attach to units in reserves if they are in reserves; Or units on the field if they are on the field.

Am I getting clearer? Not being sarcastic either, though I know this will come off that way.

OK, and as soon as you add the IC to a unit that is arriving via transport that must DS, it no longer counts.

Which is correct. But it must first be eligible to enter reserves first.

Xzerios wrote:Which is correct. But it must first be eligible to enter reserves first.

This is where you lose me. It can enter Reserves anytime before deployment. Anytime with no restrictions.

Correct.

Pg 124 BRB

Independent Characters are counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not.

Underlined is the exception.
You must first get past the rules on page 124 to get to the rules on page 36. *(haha, doesnt that sound backwards!?)*

This doesnt mean what you think it means. There is no conflict with that line and what people here are trying to explain to you.

However, in this case, the only way the HQ gains access to the unit is by being attached to said unit. This rule states that even if your HQ is attached on your list, you count him as a point. If your over the 50% tally, you HQ is ineligible to join that unit.

Xzerios, units embarked in a transport that must DS are ignored. Is the IC embarked in a vehicle that must DS? If yes, then he is ignored when determining how many units must start on the table.

Quoted from happy.

How did the HQ get with the unit? Cause he didnt start with them and he cant start in the Dedicated Transport.

Xzerios wrote:How did the HQ get with the unit? Cause he didnt start with them and he cant start in the Dedicated Transport.

Why can the IC not start with a unit in a Drop Pod?

Surely there eneds to be space for him, but if there is space, he can be joined to them in the Drop Pod.

The rules say nothing about having your tally on the army list before the game starts. It simply says that you must deploy 50% of your army and the rest can be in reserves. The final tally is not relevant until you deploy your units or place them in reserves. It is a good idea to know what you are doing beforehand just to ensure there are no surprises when it is game time, but that puts no restriction on when you must have the decision made other than when you deploy.

Quoted from Antivas.

X, you arent countering the points made by people here. You are just re stating your previous assertions.

Re-read the rules on IC. There are two ways to join a unit, be placed in Reserves with them is one. Once the IC is part of the unit it can join the DT. The point doesn't count until the units are deployed. Before deployment you tell your opponent what the IC is doing, and everything is square. Like I said, and you agreed with, the final tally is not counted until you deploy. But you place units in Reserves before deploying so there is no conflict.

Captain Antivas wrote:Re-read the rules on IC. There are two ways to join a unit, be placed in Reserves with them is one. Once the IC is part of the unit it can join the DT. The point doesn't count until the units are deployed. Before deployment you tell your opponent what the IC is doing, and everything is square. Like I said, and you agreed with, the final tally is not counted until you deploy. But you place units in Reserves before deploying so there is no conflict.

Correct all the way to the last sentence. Reserves and Deploying are done at the same time. That is what the rules for Preparing Reserves is doing. Its checking to see how many units you may start the deployment with in reserves. It outlines specifically that Units that start the game in reserves are not counted. Dedicated Transports and their cargo count as one unit, and lastly that any Independent Character counts as one unit -regardless- of whether they are joined to another unit or not. It is by this statement of the rule that can pull your HQ out from the squadron you have him starting with to meet the requirements of Preparing Reserves 50% units.

Your reply is completely ignoring any and all rules for Deep Striking. Generally they count as 1 unit, unless they are in a transport that must DS, then they are ignored. This is a simple matter of specific trumping general. Reserves are the rules set up for all units who wish to start the game off the board (general), DS is a set of rules for units who wish to enter the game by DS (specific). All units can be in Reserves, unless a special rule prevents it. Only certain units can DS and require a special rule to do so.

"First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together." Page 124

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." Page 36

Not some, not most, but any model who is embarked on a transport that must Deep Strike is ignored when counting how many units can be in Reserves. You tell your opponent the Chaplain and the Captain are going to be deployed with the Tactical Squad in the Drop Pod (as 124 requires) and they are all ignored when determining how many units may start in reserves (as required by page 36). You cannot talk to me about units that must Deep Strike without taking the Deep Strike rules into account.

Xzerios wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Re-read the rules on IC. There are two ways to join a unit, be placed in Reserves with them is one. Once the IC is part of the unit it can join the DT. The point doesn't count until the units are deployed. Before deployment you tell your opponent what the IC is doing, and everything is square. Like I said, and you agreed with, the final tally is not counted until you deploy. But you place units in Reserves before deploying so there is no conflict.

Correct all the way to the last sentence. Reserves and Deploying are done at the same time. That is what the rules for Preparing Reserves is doing. Its checking to see how many units you may start the deployment with in reserves. It outlines specifically that Units that start the game in reserves are not counted. Dedicated Transports and their cargo count as one unit, and lastly that any Independent Character counts as one unit -regardless- of whether they are joined to another unit or not. It is by this statement of the rule that can pull your HQ out from the squadron you have him starting with to meet the requirements of Preparing Reserves 50% units.

Xzerios,

I see what you are trying to say but look at the reserve tally as a running total. So in this example, you have 4 DPs and embarked units that are ignored. This leaves your two ICs who are eligible to start on the board, meaning one can go into reserves. When the first IC enters reserves and joins a DP embarked unit, he is now a model on a mandatory deep striker and no longer counts in your reserve tally per the DS rules on pg 36. Now, your revised count is one IC eligible to start on the board and therefore one unit can go into reserves. The second IC joins another DP embarked unit and now also no longer counts toward the tally for eligible reserves. There is nothing in the deployment rules that establishes a fixed time when the number of units eligible to enter reserves is fixed rather than running.

Can GW really have made it this friggin hard to figure out your starting force...???? Cause im way lost........