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Damn shame, was thinking about Gating the unit into the opponents face.

Thanks for the answer.

Shep wrote:I haven't had any table time with swarmlord or a walking shooty tyrant yet. my games have been coming with fexstars, which are VERY powerful.

You know, I wanted to ask you about that as I have not experimented in that direction. So what are you running as your fex star? 2 Dakkafexes with a Prime?

Roboute wrote:
On the other hand, if everything in your army is designed to hit the enemy at the same time, you force the enemy to make some tough choices, and increase the likelihood that something will see combat. If you've ever read about Jy2's "multiple threat overload" Necron list, it's a similar concept. In general, faster is better, because it gives your opponent less time to react. However, the Nids have some strong choices in a slower moving army for a different playstyle. If your army consists of Termagants, Tervigons and Hive Guard, it's a slower list, that wins using other strengths. In that list, would a brood of Raveners be a synergistic choice? Probably not. On the other hand, an army with Flying Tyrants, Ymgarls, Podding Zoans, Infiltrating Stealers, Raveners, Gargoyles and some Podding Fexes moves much more quickly - would a footslogging brood of Warriors be the best choice for this list?

OK so you run a type of Threat Saturation list. You look to engage the enemy as fast as possible and limit the ability to focus thier fire and destroy a single target at a time based on who the immedete threat is because everything is a threat.

My lists are much more slight of hand lists becasue that matches my playstyle. I try to force a reaction from my opponent by giving them an direct threat to deal with and then anouther direct threat to deal with until the game ends (unless playing for KP and then my style changes dramaticly). For example I have a "Deathstar" of with Swarmlord, 2 TG with Lash and a Prime with LS/BS. I take the shortest route to the most expensive unit with it. It usually dies horribly. But that is it's job. 2 Screamer-Killers come in with drop pods to shake things up turn 2 or 3. Unit of 5 Shrikes patroling near objectives to take out any elite units that are avoiding my distractions.

Mean while my list is doing two things. I am doing everything I can to kill his scoring units. I am moving my scoring units to the objectives.

I am still greatly amused by some of the marine lists that I see that have 2 squads of tactical marines as thier only scoring even if they are combat squaded. While they are trying to protect thier tanks or deathstar they generally don't even notice that they can't win the game. Get Line Breaker, Kill the Warlord and First Blood. Its 3VP. I hold one objective and we draw in most games. I hold 2 and I win.

shamroll wrote:On a different Tyranid Tactic issue, I am having trouble keeping my Genestealers alive long enough to get into CC. They are usually my opponents #1 target so by the time I get into charge range, they are either dead or in such low numbers that they aren't very effective. I usually infiltrate them into cover then I either move them out to go for the attack or have them camp an objective in or close to cover. Either way they take so much fire that I'm not sure if they are worth the points. I know I'm using them wrong but I don't know how to use them right. Do I just need to use more Genestealers?

Genestealers, like most troop choices with 5+ saves, aren't particularly survivable. If you are trying to do something aggressive with them early in a game, they are going to get your opponents attention, and then they are going to die. i don't like to use my troop choices like that. They score, so I would advocate patience with them. Don't overinvest, and go to ground in good cover during the early turns of the game. They are one of the only tyranid creatures who can really utilize go to ground, and go to ground is pretty crazy now with so many different terrain types giving +2 to cover on GtG.

When it is time to make an aggressive move with the stealers, lead with the broodlord, he can lose two wounds before you've lost any effectiveness, and he has a 4+ armor save which will let you take a save against a lot of the different overwatch fire you'll have to face. That can be BIG when you eat a wall of death from regular flamers.

 Shep wrote:

shamroll wrote:On a different Tyranid Tactic issue, I am having trouble keeping my Genestealers alive long enough to get into CC. They are usually my opponents #1 target so by the time I get into charge range, they are either dead or in such low numbers that they aren't very effective. I usually infiltrate them into cover then I either move them out to go for the attack or have them camp an objective in or close to cover. Either way they take so much fire that I'm not sure if they are worth the points. I know I'm using them wrong but I don't know how to use them right. Do I just need to use more Genestealers?

Genestealers, like most troop choices with 5+ saves, aren't particularly survivable. If you are trying to do something aggressive with them early in a game, they are going to get your opponents attention, and then they are going to die. i don't like to use my troop choices like that. They score, so I would advocate patience with them. Don't overinvest, and go to ground in good cover during the early turns of the game. They are one of the only tyranid creatures who can really utilize go to ground, and go to ground is pretty crazy now with so many different terrain types giving +2 to cover on GtG.


When it is time to make an aggressive move with the stealers, lead with the broodlord, he can lose two wounds before you've lost any effectiveness, and he has a 4+ armor save which will let you take a save against a lot of the different overwatch fire you'll have to face. That can be BIG when you eat a wall of death from regular flamers.

Fearless units can't go to ground.

@rollawaythestone.

Stealers are not Fearless unless they are in synapse. Considering they outflank and infiltrate they are out of synapes a lot of the time. They just don't have to make IB rolls out of synapse do to brood telepathy.

One of the things i like to do with them is just infiltrate on top of an objective and GtG and make them waste shots until i can get my gaunts there to relieve them.

What do we think about this guys?

Flyrant Devx2 HC, 285
Flyrant Devx2 260

5 Genestealer/Broodlord 116
5 Genestealer/Broodlord 116
5 Genestealer/Broodlord 116
5 Genestealer/Broodlord 116
5 Genestealer/Broodlord 116
5 Genestealer/Broodlord 116

Trygon 200
Trygon 200
Trygon 200

1841

Thats a lot in the opponents face turn 1/2.
Plus, not even to mention the amount of OM (for mech/flying veichles) ,Enfeeble (troops/eldar bikers) or Terrify (Daemons/Nids) you could roll up.

Stealers aren't dead and the Broodlord is a power house, especially when spammed like this.

So basically infiltrate all of the Stealers, Keep them in cover/out of line of sight where possible and try to get them all into a chargeable range for turn two.
Swoop both Flyrants up, your opponent then has 1 turn to kill the Stealers or Flyrants. Then potentially all 3 Trygons coming in Turn 2.

I realise that you'd have to be careful with the stealers if going second otherwise you'll have to face two rounds of shooting before you got to use them.

Also thought about how Terrify synergises with the Broodlords native power and cumulative effect of multiple Broodlords reducing your Leadership.
Morale check on a 4 or less? Ouch.

 shamroll wrote:
I've been itching to use a Swarmlord but he is so point heavy and running him without at least 1 guard makes me nervous with all the krak missiles out there. I've also considered the walking HT with 2x Brainleech, armored shell, and 1-2 guards. This would allow me to LOS! any AP1-2 while throwing saves for everything else on a 2+.

On a different Tyranid Tactic issue, I am having trouble keeping my Genestealers alive long enough to get into CC. They are usually my opponents #1 target so by the time I get into charge range, they are either dead or in such low numbers that they aren't very effective. I usually infiltrate them into cover then I either move them out to go for the attack or have them camp an objective in or close to cover. Either way they take so much fire that I'm not sure if they are worth the points. I know I'm using them wrong but I don't know how to use them right. Do I just need to use more Genestealers?

being possibly the best cc troop choice in the game, other players will almost never pass up the chance to shoot at them. typically, I try to infiltrate 10 poisoned stealers in cover, and make a mad dash as far as possible to next available cover, or the enemy line itself. I play IG alot, and my biggest vulnerability is always ordinace. that said, even if you DONT get them into combat, you have created an ideal distraction, and I have yet to see an imperial player( or any kind) not get nervous at seeing a handful of genestealers running balls out towards them. hopefully this spares the undoubted swarms of nasties from large blast templates getting dropped on them. hope I helped.

 wyomingfox wrote:

Shep wrote:I haven't had any table time with swarmlord or a walking shooty tyrant yet. my games have been coming with fexstars, which are VERY powerful.

You know, I wanted to ask you about that as I have not experimented in that direction. So what are you running as your fex star? 2 Dakkafexes with a Prime?

3 fexes and 2 primes

After some reflection, and a recent loss to grey knights, three single carnifex are probably better at almost everything the big fexstar does. You get some comical overwatches with the big unit, but as more and more people I know are starting to experiment with the nastier death stars, I don't think fexes and primes should be trying to fight in that weight class. Wound spreading ends up being the least of my worries, since I last posted in this thread, my new worry is having a big deathstar that isn't quite as big as the other guys death star.

Just as I was about to just swear off playing nids against draigo, I started to realize how awesome fearless is, and how lame 950 points of paladins are when they have to slog through 60+ termagants.

The book is really rewarding me for trying different things and reacting to new enemy units that kick my butt. I am holding out hope that we will have a functional all-comers deathstar but it will take GW overruling some offensively bad FAQ rulings about spore pods.

Just as soon as that chucklehead who wrote the nid FAQ wakes up, I will be running 9x warriors with toxin sacs and lash whip bonesword, led by two tyranid primes .

What do you mean shep? Whats wrong with doing that now and why is that warrior combo such a good unit?

How about a deep striking tyranid list?

running 2-3 mycetic spores, filled with 20 devil gaunts each (expensive, but man, shooting with 20 devilgaunts REALLY kills anything except for vehicles), backed with 2-3 tervigons, with 2 units of zoanthorpes in mycetic spores, and the doom in a mycetic spore.

On top of that, a flyrant with hive commander. Just pray that you deploy second though!

Razerous wrote:
What do you mean shep? Whats wrong with doing that now and why is that warrior combo such a good unit?

I would assume that the problem is that independent characters cannot join a unit in a mycetic spore.

trentblack201 wrote:
How about a deep striking tyranid list?

running 2-3 mycetic spores, filled with 20 devil gaunts each (expensive, but man, shooting with 20 devilgaunts REALLY kills anything except for vehicles), backed with 2-3 tervigons, with 2 units of zoanthorpes in mycetic spores, and the doom in a mycetic spore.

On top of that, a flyrant with hive commander. Just pray that you deploy second though!

Only half of your army can be kept in reserve in 6th ed. You would need more stuff on the board, so you do not get tabled.

Well, he'd start on the board with a Tervigon or two - which, depending on terrain, would take a lot to kill.

mmhmm usually my friends would field 3 tervigons, 1 hive guard squad, then reserve the doom, 1 zoanthrope squad (i said two as an exaggeration lol), and then reserve 3 devilgaunt squads in mycetic spores. i'm not quite sure about the details, but this is usually around 1750- 2000 points. usually more.

Yeah, Razerous... its the spore pod issue...

The warrior death star is perfectly functional. But it' particular achillies heel is TONS of strength 8 shooting, particularly barrage. The spore pod could put you down so close to a gunline that they couldn't get enough large blasts onto you.

You could run it on foot against paladins, particularly if you have enough shooting (hive guard) to tear down the psyflemen, but a couple manticores and its really tragic.

 Shep wrote:
Yeah, Razerous... its the spore pod issue...

The warrior death star is perfectly functional. But it' particular achillies heel is TONS of strength 8 shooting, particularly barrage. The spore pod could put you down so close to a gunline that they couldn't get enough large blasts onto you.

You could run it on foot against paladins, particularly if you have enough shooting (hive guard) to tear down the psyflemen, but a couple manticores and its really tragic.

lol, I hate manticores so much. basilisks too.

 spaceelf wrote:
Only half of your army can be kept in reserve in 6th ed.

Although note that units with spores must reserve (you can't drop an empty spore), so they get exempted. Haven't played reserve-heavy Tyranids in 6th yet, but I threw together some lists that reserved like 8/11 units.

I have found that the Hoard aspect of the Tyranid not only really appeals to me, but has been strikingly effective in my games as of late. I agree with whoever said they find the Tervigon/Hive Gaurd list pretty boring. It's just now how I imagine the Tyranids.

I recently ran a list as follows that did strikingly well against Grey Knights:
2000 pts.

1 Hive Tyrant
TL Dev w/ Brainleech Worms
Wings
Old Adversary

1 Hive Tyrant
Armoured Shell
Heavy Venom Cannon
Hive Commander

30 Hormagaunts
Toxin Sacs

30 Hormagaunts
Toxin Sacs

18 Hormagaunts
Toxin Sacs

28 Termagaunts (mostly for cover save)

20 Genestealers
Toxin Sacs
20 Genestealers
Toxin Sacs

1 Carnifex
Heavy Venom Cannon
Bioplasma

^ is something I am going for as well. I really like the idea of horde nids, it just feels right. I may be bringing a single Tervigon, because I like the fluff, but not for uber-competetiveness.

Tyrant-Armored Shell, Tl Brainleeches, Regen, OA, TS
Prime-LW and Bonesword, talons, Regen, TS

2X Zoans
2X Hivegaurd
2X Venomthrope

Tervigon-TS, Catalyst, Crushing Claw (not because of the debatable ruling of how many attacks you get, but because the model looks better imo)
12X Termagants-TS, Devourers
12X Hormagaunts-AG, TS
12X Hormagaunts-AG, TS
12X Hormagaunts-AG, TS

Carnifex-2X Scything talons, bio-plasma
Carnifex-2X Scything talons, bio-plasma
Trygon-TS

Around 2k, something based around that idea. A handful of MC's and lots of little guys. May swap around to either add more gaunts to each squad or an additional gaunt squad. The Trygon and the gants will hopefully be popping in after the trygon and follow the tunnel he made to cause the most damage. Not a fan of the mystic spore/devilgant combo.

EDIT:forgot the devourers on the gants

I've found myself dropping my Hive Guard from my list. I used to run a pair to take care of light/medium vehicles.

However, with 6th, I've started playing a lot more aggressively. Flyrant with dual devourers generally takes those light/medium tanks out before the Hive Guard are even in range. I'm trying dropping them for a few games and seeing how well the 'hive guard tax' is spent elsewhere.

 -Loki- wrote:
I've found myself dropping my Hive Guard from my list. I used to run a pair to take care of light/medium armor

I dropped my hive guard as well. I added Deathleaper in thier place as an assassiin/disruption unit. With so many options for killing light armor now and MCs killing heavy armor I don't see a need for them. I haven't regretted it yet.

That's good to know. As I am just starting Tyranids and would prefer not buy units that won't see much action. This thread is really helping me make some decisions.

What about raveners in 6th? They are beasts and there seems to be a lot of benefits for them this edition.

Ravaners are great right up till they get hit with S8 weapons, mainly PF and ML. Lots of upsides, but they are a real glass hammer. No real options for wound allocation games, no assault grenades and no characters to tie up a PF sargent or eqiv. is a real liability.
Basicly a fun unit, but they die a bit too easily for their points. Better to take shrikes for about the same price. You can upgrade them, get SitW and HoW. And let's not forget boneswords and lash whips.

That was my thought as well, but the 5+ is somethng I really dont like. I feel like they would need either a flyrant of gargoyles to make them effective. I guess the multiple wounds does help, something as a guard player I keep forgetting to check...

Something I don't get with Raveners is, why do they have to replace a set of scything talons to get rending claws? They have 6 scything talon arms, and adding a set of rending claws still leaves them with 2 pairs. If Cruddace simply made Rending Claws an addition to dual scything talons (and not counting the 3rd set unupgraded), Raveners would be a lot tastier a choice.

But being a glass hammer... that's part and parcel of running Tyranids at the moment.

Oh how I love the idea and the look of Raveners but just like Warriors, they are too fragile. I want to use them, I really do, but I don't want to spend the money on the models if they are just going to die instantly (I made that mistake with warriors.) I know if I spent the time I could get some use out of them in a game but I'd rather spend the points on another set of Hive Guard, a Trygon, another Tervigon, etc. Something I know will last me more than a turn.

If I did run them, I would go with rending claws too just to give them that little extra anti-armor punch.

Shrikes are too point heavy for me. 40 points for a base model isn't appealing when Gargs are much more survivable by virtue of their weight in numbers.

 shamroll wrote:
Shrikes are too point heavy for me. 40 points for a base model isn't appealing when Gargs are much more survivable by virtue of their weight in numbers.

Matter of playstyle I guess. Gargs and Shrikes fill two totally diffrent roles in an army. Gargoyles are good tarpits and screens, but have problems killing most units. Shrikes are one of the best MEQ killers in our army. Kitted out properly they get HoW, ignore armor, make your opponent hit at I1, re-roll 1's to hit, re-roll failed to wounds and provide synapse/SitW. I take a unit of 4 and they will rip through a 5 man tactical terminator squad.

If they don't kill them all, things do get ugly though.

Hey hey hey...look here. Raveners are not warriors. Raveners are a lott better. They move 12", they have a better ws, inisiative, more attacks. They are very cool. Warriors provide synapse, do some shooting and can fight poorly. They are an allaround warriors that squises out some shots and dies horibly. Raveners runn towards your oponent and has to die or they kill your oponent. I recomend them as an alternative to a trygon. 6 raveners with rending claws are nice.

 Niiai wrote:
Hey hey hey...look here. Raveners are not warriors. Raveners are a lott better. They move 12", they have a better ws, inisiative, more attacks. They are very cool. Warriors provide synapse, do some shooting and can fight poorly. They are an allaround warriors that squises out some shots and dies horibly. Raveners runn towards your oponent and has to die or they kill your oponent. I recomend them as an alternative to a trygon. 6 raveners with rending claws are nice.

Don't forget that with the new rules, Raveners can shoot deathspitters and still assault up to 24"! If your opponents aren't packing enough S8 weaponry, then Raveners can shred anything they touch.

I like to field a 10 man squad with rending claws and DS's (spendy and fragile, i know), but my current greatest kill was a multiple combat where I defeated an avatar, a wraithlord, and a 7-man seer council in one charge. High-risk, high-pay. Just how I like my 'Nids! Sadly, About half of the time they just get gunned down.

 Niiai wrote:
Warriors provide synapse, do some shooting and can fight poorly. They are an allaround warriors that squises out some shots and dies horibly. Raveners runn towards your oponent and has to die or they kill your oponent. I recomend them as an alternative to a trygon. 6 raveners with rending claws are nice.

And yet, Warriors can be made to hit harder with the simple addition of Boneswords, while Raveners have to make do with Rending.

Not that I'm belittling Raveners, but saying Warriors fight in combat poorly shows to me that you're not utilising them properly as melee fighters. Scything talons don't make them good in melee, just like Raveners without Rending aren't going to hit hard.