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2012/09/11 18:45:40
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
Some comments to add to the OnG one:
Wurzagg does not confer his Ward Save to a unit he joins, under any circumstance.
Skarsnik should be pointed out as being very fragile, being a T4 model with a 6+ save and... that's it.
Black Orc Bosses have Immune to Psychology and Quell Animosity, while Savage Orc Bosses also get Warpaint (6+ Ward Save).
Night Goblin Shamans must roll a "free" D6 with each spell (that isn't a power die), but have it added to their casting total provided the base total is 3+ and the Mushroom Die is not a 1. This ability means that a single Night Goblin Shaman, if they do not fail their Mushroom / Power Die rolls, will always cast on a minimum of 5 + Power Level (so a Level 2, on a single PD, will be anywhere between 7 and 14, as opposed to 3-8).
For Orc Boyz, mention that non-Big 'uns should generally look into a Boss upgrade due to them having three stats improved including WS (to-hit odds) and S (to-wound odds).
Orc Arrers are generally a worthwhile choice even excluding their points: Orc Arrers are WS3, S4 on the first round, and Toughness 4 with Light Armor. In other words, for the first round of each combat they get in, they essentially fight with Halberds for free, and have T4 going for them instead of the normally squishy T3.
Savage Orc Big 'Uns should be noted as being unable to purchase a magical standard like regular Big 'Uns. This means regular Big 'Uns can do better with certain equipment options (for example, taking the Banner of Flames and Add. Choppas or HW&S w/ Razor Banner), but in return sacrifice the pure "vanilla" killiness of AHW Savage Orc Big 'Uns.
Nasty Skulkers are, generally, a better choice than a Boss in Common Goblin units. Both have the same point cost, but a Boss replaces a model (versus being a new one), has less attacks (2 vs 3), and lacks all of the special rules... while costing the same price as a Skulker. If you can only put one character in a Common Gobbo unit, it's generally better to take the Skulker. Also, Common Goblins can get a 5+ / 6+ save if they buy shields, making them reasonable tarpits.
Wolf Riders are an odd case in that, for their cheap price, they can serve as a ranked up cavalry unit. While only boasting a 4+ Save, WS2, and T3, they can afford two ranks for relatively cheap AND fit in some cheapo characters (leading to a final result of, say, 10 S4, 6 S3, and 6 S5 or 6 S6 attacks on the charge). It can be an expensive choice, but - also - unexpected.
Night Goblins, it should be pointed out, must be very careful with Fanatic Deployment / Release. Generally, a General should be very careful when and where they release their fanatics, as such an act can make or break a battle plan.
Forest Goblin Spider Riders are a mixed bag, generally only so-so on their own due to their lack of armor and greater cost over Wolf Riders. However, take note that they're one of the few models that has I4 in the army that isn't a Lord or Night Goblin, meaning they can do a world of hurt before some armies' soldiers' strike.
Boar Boyz are iffy choices in general, due to their inability to decide what they want to do. They're not durable enough to count as Heavy Cavalry (only a 3+ save when bearing all armor), they don't have a reliable offensive capability (unless Big 'Uns, and even then their lack of re-rolls and single attack per is crippling), etcetera. Work well as a mounted character bunker, but for their price little else.
Savage Orc Boar Boyz are generally the same... except when using Additional Choppas as Big 'Uns. Dangerous Terrain's TERRIBLE then for such models, but between having either a 6+ or 5+ ward base, 5 S5 attacks per frontage, and so-on, they can at least do some hurt offensively. The next best option tends to be "vanilla" with spears, having only one less attack per frontage and - barring the loss in WS - generally the same advantages for a number of points less.
The Wolf Chariot, overall, hits just as hard as the Orc variety. It sacrifices 2 (/ 3) S5 Crew Attacks on the charge for 3 (/ 4) S4 Crew Attacks, same as 2 S5 Boar attacks for 2 S3 Wolf ones, but the impact hits are the exact same strength, odds for hit amount, etc. Wolf Chariots it could be said are more support (due to one less wound and one less armour), while the Orc one is slightly more stand-alone.
Spear Chukkas are, IMO, a much better buy than a Rock Lobba. Less than half the points per, better for handling Monstrous Infantry (due to the potential of multi-wounding multiple models), better anti-armour capabilities, etc. The main area a RL shines ahead is against lack-of-armor-save low-toughness enemy infantry, and OnG generally have plenty of other counters to such units.
Squig Herds work well either in big bricks as dedicated offensive units, or as semi-small units of flank runners. 9 Squigs + 6 Herders will run about 90 points, can do roughly 10-14 S5 attacks in combat at I3 (hoping you have at least the front rank and some 2nd rank squigs left), and being 90pts are an acceptable counter to most things that would typically be sent down flanks (Wolves? Sure, have at it... enjoy the 7-8 wounds done by the Squigs in the effort, likely wiping them out and saving whatever was on that flank. Light Cavalry? WS4 S5 can mulch them good if they don't be careful. Soak shots to protect the main line's flanks? That unit was only 90pts, and will never flee!).
Snotlings need to be mentioned as Unstable, which damages their tarpit capabilities heavily (Hint: Clanrat Slaves are marginally more lethal at the same basage as Snotlings, and cost less to boot!). Generally only there for when there's points you MUST have filled.
Trolls tend not to really shine until there's at least six of them, often one will need about eight or ten. Alternatively, a solitary troll can do well for blocking / redirecting charges, provided it (like the big bricks), remains in general range.
Bad Moon Banner, similar to some other units above, is not worth it IMO. Stubborn? You can buy a Crown of Command (for less!) on the BSB for the same price, OR another 16 Goblins (easily giving another 2-3 ranks for Steadfast Purposes). The Soft Cover is similarly negated, generally, by buying more Night Goblins, and the Dangerous Terrains are of the crummy "Chargers in base-to-base contact" variety, not the amazing Gnoblar Trapper "Anyone in the charging unit" sort (meaning you pay 50pts for a Crown of Command, lack of armor on a Night Goblin Big Boss, and maybe 1-2 wounds / game via Dangerous Terrain).
2012/09/14 11:35:41
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
tmarichards wrote: I have some major issues with the WE tactica, some of it is just plain wrong.
I agree with this statement, the idea that a Treekin/GladeGuard build is the only competitive one is misguided, it is a good way to start playing with Wood Elves and is a little forgiving but I found it too boring and changed my entire list.
I am now having great fun with my all Elf army and would like to add to the tactica about the pros and cons of the popular Eternal Guard/Harp build, will gather my thoughts and post something more construtive when I have time.
Loving the idea of this thread and will most certainly use when my next fantasy army project gathers pace
snurl wrote:I would like to build the Infinity stairs, but they will take forever.
2012/09/14 12:59:52
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
I'd like to suggest a couple of posts from another thread that I started as additions or modifications to the VC section. Also, the WoC section is accidentally lumped into the VC section spoiler.
The long post by Hellstorm and the long post by Nitros14 are both very good and comprehensive. They could probably be trimmed down a bit to fit this thread's more "succinct" style, but I think they both cover every unit in the VC book, unlike the current VC section. I think that Hellstorm's post contradicts things that I've read elsewhere on this board a little more than Nitros14's post, if it matters.
1500
500
Vampire Counts 2400
300
Circle Orboros 20
2012/09/15 18:02:03
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
Hellcanons are op and i love both of mine they are also really op :-P Also knights can't parry no one on horse can only mournfang cav can.
Overview of the WoC army book.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/388667.page#3171854 Ralin Givens is the chaos to my warriors. Ra Ra Ra go team awesome I mean chaos Tzack Vahr Zhen's unholy followers.
all hail Howie Mandel deal or no deal it dosnt matter tzeentch wins
Khorne flakes part of a good breakfast when you plan to kill maim and burn all!!!
Do you have enough Priests do you?
2012/09/15 19:39:35
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
I've always thought that, as brilliant as this is, each army could do with a "best way to start" section. I.e. it tells new players the best, cheapest and quickest way to go about getting a small, effective army of about 1000-1500pts that they can play games with to get the hang of things.
For woc get a battalion great buy unless you don't want warriors or marauders.
for ogres the same thing battalion and a character.
Overview of the WoC army book.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/388667.page#3171854 Ralin Givens is the chaos to my warriors. Ra Ra Ra go team awesome I mean chaos Tzack Vahr Zhen's unholy followers.
all hail Howie Mandel deal or no deal it dosnt matter tzeentch wins
Khorne flakes part of a good breakfast when you plan to kill maim and burn all!!!
Do you have enough Priests do you?
2012/09/21 21:20:10
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
Man, I spent all last night researching which army to pick and now I find this and I can't open the Spoiler boxes. Any idea why? Tried Chrome, IE8 and IE9.
The suspense is killing me...
2012/09/21 22:30:09
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/22 00:23:48
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2012/09/22 21:34:24
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
Extra in depth Wood Elf Tactica brought to you by: tmarichards
Part 1:
Spoiler:
Wood Elves do have it a bit rough in the current edition, but I'm finding them really rewarding to play with so if you want to give them a go I'd say absolutely go for it, don't let people put you off.
For a 2K list, I'd be inclined to go with the following, which also has some brief explanations as to why I'm going with certain choices and how they could be used:
2000 Pts - Wood Elves Roster - 2K no comp
Total Roster Cost: 2000
Spellweaver (1#, 310 pts) Lore of Beasts
1 Spellweaver = (Level 4 Upgrade)
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Moonstone of the Hidden Ways
I'm a really big fan of Lore of Beasts compared to Lore of Life for several reasons. The first is that unlike Life, you get the one of the best spells in the deck (and in my opinion one of the best spells in the entire game), as the signature spell in Wildform. It turns Dryads from very good units into absolute monsters (WS4 S5 T5 2A I6) that can obliterate almost anything that doesn't have a 3+ save, and it can also keep your stuff alive from a distance. In a lot of situations, it's like getting a Mindrazor that makes you harder to hurt and you're guaranteed to get it. Amber Spear is really good for getting rid of monsters, and if you can get a flank shot it ruins cavalry.
Curse of Anraheir is another great spell, as it essentially kills a third of an enemy unit any time they march, charge, flee, pursue or over-run (casting it on a frenzied unit that is then forced to charge, then over-run, is amazing), as well as the -1 to hit which can be used to keep your units alive in combat and from shooting. With that in mind, a goodly amount of the time it's a Dwellers that you can cast more easily and from further away- of course, if your opponent doesn't activate it by marching then nothing will die, but on the flip side even that is good as it slows them down and there is also the option for it to activate multiple times from one casting.
Savage Beast and Pann's Pelt are also useful every now and then as they can make even the mage pretty killy and tough- SB really comes into its own when you also take the Bow of Loren/Arcane Bodkins lord. Another consistent feature of Lore of Beasts is that all the spells are pretty easy to cast- the hardest you're likely to try with any frequency is a boosted Amber Spear which needs a 15 which is pretty secure on a 4 dice cast, so your mage won't miscast much and die. Savage Beast also has great synergy with Curse of Anraheir against heavily armoured armies that give WE lots of trouble- Curse draws out dispel dice, then the Lorenlord with Savage Beast kills 3 T3 knights a turn, or a single Demigryph.
Another more recent use for Pann’s Pelt and Savage Beast that I have found is as defence against Death magic, which is especially useful in an avoidance army where ward saves or MR on characters is often a wasted investment. Boosted Pelt is pretty easy to cast which is also good, the boosted Savage Beast less so though.
On the other hand, Lore of Life doesn't really add as much to my style of MSU play. Even with the regen or additional toughness, it all still dies very easily indeed. Dwellers is a good spell, but unless you're very close it's pretty hard to cast which means you'll need to be chucking 6 dice at each turn which increases the risk of your mage dying and giving up a load of points. Throne of Vines does lessen the risk, but if you're taking Lore of Life just for Dwellers then you really need Throne as well to keep her safe, and it's not that rare that you'll either not get them both on spell selection or have the power dice to fund them both. Also, by now most people know how to play against Dwellers- you just don't let your squishy characters get in range without making the Life mage come to you, which draws your expensive and easy to kill mage closer towards the enemy which is where she does not want to be. Overall, I find Life to be a very feared Lore of the internet but in reality to be a “noob-killer” lore. Once you have a bit more experience against it, it’s very easy to play against unless you’re against a Life Loremaster- which WE can’t get.
Both Lores have their merits, overall I think Beasts is just a better lore for WE especially for my style of list and that it has a lot more potential.
With regards to her item selection, I always go with the Dispel Scroll over the Wand of Wych Elm as it's better for stopping that "if I cast this I win" spell that comes up relatively often- the biggest one I'm running into atm is the bubble +1 toughness/regen for Ogres or a bubble Pha’s, as if they cast that on the turn when I have to deal lots of shooting damage then it's pretty much game over. The Wand is good for stopping the smaller spells your opponent casts, but against the big spells that can end games the Dispel Scroll is just in another league altogether. I tend to think that the Wand is better for not losing models, but the Scroll is better for not losing games.
The Moonstone is basically just a get out of jail free card, it's not something to build a strategy around but if it gets the level 4 and a unit of Glade Guard out of trouble just once out of every dozen games or so then it is worthwhile. Not being able to use it in your opponent's movement phase does mean that you have to make sure that if they get into the mage's unit whilst she's in the forest it's via an over-run and so on, if it's via an outright charge then she's dead.
When it comes to anti-magic, by and large you can be pretty sanguine about letting hexes and augments go a lot of the time, especially combat related ones- it doesn't really matter what they're fighting, the vast majority of the time Glade Guard will die regardless of their reduced WS or their opponent's boosted strength. Instead, focus on stopping direct damage spells and magic missiles. RiP spells can also often be left and instead gotten rid of in your own phase. Whilst I find this to be a generally good rule of thumb, you do need to make sure you're not missing anything- for example, it's sometimes better to let the Fireball go instead of having your flaming unit reduced to BS 1 on the turn the hydra is poised to eat you.
Very simple and common BSB load-out, Asyendi's Bane is just so that he can fire the Hail of Doom Arrow. The timing of when you use it varies a lot depending on the match-ups, for example vs Lizardmen I tend to use it very early on to get rid of the salamanders whereas in other match-ups I'll leave it until later to mop up any units that have just a couple of models left, being able to get the S4 at long range is very very useful in that respect. There's no real hard and fast rule, but if you identify a threat that can be solved by the HoDA then it's worth using, otherwise hold onto it for later. If in doubt, it's better to use it than not though. Something to watch out for is that you have to decide whether he's going to use it at the same time as the rest of his unit fires, so it's often worth not having him in a unit so that he can fire it later than them, or at a different target. Sometimes it's amazing, other times it is very disappointing, but it usually balances out over a tournament as being worthwhile.
Being in units is a very safe place for the characters to be, but it is not always necessary- if your opponent can't kill the characters at range, then having them out on their own is usually a better idea, especially in the late game, as it means that should your opponent pull off the double 6 late game charge they will get either the character or the unit, but not both. One thing to be aware of is that your characters should only ever go into the same unit if they absolutely have to- I used to be quite cavalier about what units the characters went into, but the first time my big unit with both characters in got 13th'd of the board that stopped. Don't feel bad at all about running the character out on their own if it will keep them safe, it's far better that you run them out and redirect with their former unit than you leave them in the unit and lose twice as many points. As always though, if they do leave the unit make sure you've considered whether they're safer that way or if they need to- exactly the same process as working out which unit they go in, if they go in one at all. If it's not safe for them to be out on their own, you can bounce them from unit to unit redirecting with the previous unit as you go, keeping the real points safe.
There is one quick side note when it comes to putting your characters in units that is very simple but often overlooked, and is not specific to WE at all. When you put a character into a unit, there is absolutely nothing in the rulebook that allows you to expand that unit’s frontage (excluding occasions with irregular footprints), you cannot reform a unit by adding a character to it. So, if your Glade Guard are 5 wide and you put a BSB in there, they must stay 5 wide and 1 will create rank which he cannot shoot from- this can also lead to situations where a character cannot join a unit because doing so would push a model into the third rank within 1” of another unit or building. So, think about where your characters will go when you deploy your units, and deploy the unit 6 wide instead of 5 if you want a character to go in there.
Part 2:
Spoiler:
Dryads (8#, 96 pts)
Dryads (8#, 96 pts)
I used to run 4 units of Dryads, then I cut down to 3 and now down to 2 and I'm finding them to work just as well. If I could I'd run them in units of 6, but 8 is the minimum sadly. If I need them to hit harder or live longer I can Wildform them or Anraheir my opponent, and in a lot of situations 1 Dryad works better than 8 as she still redirects just as well but has a smaller footprint.
As to their uses in the game, they have several that I use on a regular basis. They make for good redirectors as they're cheap and can bleed my opponent a bit, or if they go into the flank they can do some really good damage to lightly armoured stuff- as a general rule, try and get them into combats where they're hitting and wounding on 3s and your opponent will only have a 5+ save, or at least 2 out of those 3- without re-rolls or ranks it's not that hard for them to fluff a round of combat and die. Also, as with any light combat units, only charge them into combats where you expect to win easily or you expect to be completely wiped out- the last thing you want to do is charge into an enemy, do a couple of wounds but lose combat overall and give them a free Pursuit roll towards your army with your opponent’s turn to follow- for this reason, flank and rear charges are your friend.
That said, Dryads are also pretty good at sniping characters, specifically heroes or mages- they can't do much to armour though. It is well worth risking a unit of Dryads if you can kill a hero mage or especially a level 4, and as long as you are careful and plan ahead you can often work around the Pursuit issue I mentioned above.
Dryads are also pretty useful for screening your own archers if you come across a mirror-match or someone else with a lot of shooting. T4, Skirmish and the 5++ means that they just don't die to S3 shooting at long range, so use them to give hard cover to your own shooting in deployment so that if your opponent gets the first turn they can't do much, then on your turn the Dryads jump out of the way and you smash whatever they tried to shoot you with. Because they don't die vs S3 shooting, Dryads are also very very good at simply running at opposing archers as they soak up a lot of firepower- this lets you focus your shooting on their nasty combat units whilst they have to either focus on killing 96pts of Dryads or get ripped up in combat. This is especially good if your opponent uses archer units to bunker characters. On the same note, if they can get in behind the enemy and you don't need them to redirect, Dryads make very short work out of war machine crews.
I'm also starting to use mine to redirect less earlier on and instead work as more of a flee buffer- you put a couple of Glade Guard units opposite an enemy combat unit to bait them in with the Dryads 4-5" behind you (this works even better when you have both GG units blocking their unit from moving past). When the Glade Guard are charged you flee, and again when they redirect into the second unit, and you don't need to roll very high to bounce through the Immune to Psych Dryads behind to safety. Then, in your next turn, you rally the Glade Guard and either do the same thing again or sacrifice the Dryads or an eagle to buy more time. This works especially well with Glade Riders because they're fast cav, so as long as you keep rolling right they can do this pretty much indefinitely. One very important thing is to make sure you're careful with the distances, I usually go 2" closer than the average roll, maybe 3" so that I don't get caught out by one bad dice roll. Every now and then you'll run 4" away when 5" would get you to safety, but that's just dice for you Wardancers can also do this moderately well, but whichever unit you use as the buffer make sure they are >Movement+12” away from whatever unit you’re baiting so that the Dryads can’t get pinged with a double 6 charge.
Glade Guard (15#, 214 pts)
Musician + Standard Bearer
1 Lord's Bowman
1 Banner of Eternal Flame
The bigger unit with the flaming banner is pretty much just to turn hydras and abombs into free points. Without this unit, I can't really touch any big regen monsters and they'll shred me. 16 flaming shots at long range gets 0.67 wounds on the hydra (hitting on 4s, wounding on 6s then he has the 4+ armour), and a good deal more at short range so taking 15 then having your mage in there works pretty well. You could take fewer and just plan on shooting it at short range, but most DE/Skaven players will see the flaming banner coming a mile away and smash this unit quickly, so you need to have a few extra bodies in there for redundancy. If I have points left over at the end of writing a list, I usually dump them into this unit and get it up to around 20 but if I can fit more than 5 more bodies in, I can often make cuts elsewhere to get another full unit of Glade Guard in.
Glade Guard (10#, 126 pts)
Musician
Glade Guard (10#, 126 pts)
Musician
Glade Guard (10#, 126 pts)
Musician
Glade Guard (10#, 126 pts)
Musician
Glade Guard (10#, 126 pts)
Musician
Glade Guard (10#, 126 pts)
Musician
Overall, I have to say that I consider Glade Guard one of the best units in the game on a point for point basis. In my opinion they are 100% fairly costed, but unfortunately they lose out because not many things of a similar nature in the game are- the first that jumps to mind being Dark Elf xbows. Getting the hang of them is tricky, but they are very rewarding. There are 2 rules that really bring them into their own, and to make them excel you really need to combine both of them- moving and shooting with no penalties, and S4 at short range. With a 30" long range, this means your S4 killzone extends to 20" which is a really big deal- it's far enough away that you can get into short range and still be pretty safe and if your opponent wants to get to you they have to spend at least one turn in the killzone- in a nutshell, the best way to use the Wood Elf army in my opinion is to maximise the amount of time your opponent spends in this killzone. Throw your chaff in the way or double flee charges, but keep multiple Glade Guard shooting at one unit each turn at short range until it dies. Focus your fire.
There's not really a hard and fast order with regards to what you shoot in each match-up, as long as you focus your fire and kill it. As a general rule though, lightly-armoured monsters and chaff are amongst my first targets as they can die fairly easily, then I deal with the blocks at short range when my shooting is more effective. Getting rid of enemy chaff also makes your fleeing more effective, the less units they have the less they can charge you which means you have to flee less. There are a few things though that are always on my "Make it die NOW" list, which are salamanders, abombs and hydras- they're just too fast and too dangerous to leave until later on. There will also be things that you simply cannot kill with Glade Guard, for example a Bloodthirster is incredibly hard to bring down- you can commit 2-3 turns of just shooting this and nothing else and only get a couple of wounds off it, and neglect shooting at stuff which is less threatening or worth less points but will die. When you run into these sorts of things, you either have to commit to killing it and hope for the best (these things are usually worth a game-winning amount of points), or you ignore it, let it eat your chaff and instead kill the rest of their army then turn to it when there is nothing else to shoot. If you commit heavily and you don’t get it, however, you're in a world of trouble (as I found out Game 6 of Call to War).
There are a few things to look out for especially when working out what to shoot, and it helps here if you can judge 6" and 12". If you see any units with poor ld that are within 6" of a small enemy unit (really common examples of this are Mournfang within 6" of Sabretusks, or chaos hounds within 6" of anything), shoot off the chaff and force the panic tests- after all, you don't need to kill entire units if you can just panic them off the board. The same goes for units that are outside of their general and BSB range, work out roughly how many models you can kill and if it's enough to force a panic test without spending too many Glade Guard to do so ("too many" here is entirely relative to what you're shooting and what you could instead shoot, for example panicking off 20 spearmen isn't worth spending very many GG on if you roll badly, whereas a level 4 in a bunker absolutely is worth the risk), and if you think it's worthwhile then go for it. The current trend of everyone having ld 9 at least with the Standard of Discipline is a real pain, but more often than you think people are just careless with their ld ranges. Just don't measure the distances until it's your turn and make sure that you keep a good poker face during their turn even if you see them do something that you will be able to capitalise on, if people twig you've seen a mistake they'll double check everything.
Something that can be overlooked is focusing your Glade Guard fire. In most games where my shooting has done nothing, it's because I either physically spread my units out so much that I couldn't get many within short range of the same target or I shot at too many different units. As a result, what I tend to do is castle quite heavily in one corner or the other so that my opponent either has to sit back a long way (which is fine, if people want to play a ranged game vs Wood Elves they will lose more often than not), or run into all 70 odd Glade Guard for 2-3 turns. Castling also has the effect of making your opponent spread out a bit quite often- if they deploy heavily in one corner, I will usually just go in the opposite corner and they'll never get into my points. With so many drops, you can usually force your opponent to commit before you do- I usually deploy an eagle first in either corner, then a unit of Dryads in either corner and then a unit of Glade Guard in either corner (be sure to keep the GG more than 6" away from the eagle, the last thing you want is for the unit that's away from your general and BSB to be panicked off early on because the eagle gets killed by a cannonball). At this point I have 6 units down but I can still castle into either corner or split my army half and half or go in the centre of the board, whereas my opponent usually has to have something important down by this point which is when you decide where you want to commit.
However, it is important not to be too defensive with your Glade Guard early on- in order to get the best out of them, you need to get into short range quickly and start taking off models. When I first started playing with Wood Elves, I often put most of my stuff either on my board edge or in the middle of my deployment zone, which does mean that it takes your opponent a bit longer to get to you but has 2 massive pitfalls- the first is that you're not getting your S4 bonus for very long, and the other is that you have nowhere to flee into. Instead, a better way to use Glade Guard is very quite aggressively- run them forwards and get into the short range. This often feels quite counter-intuitive, especially the first few times you move 5" towards the Mournfang units bearing down on you, but it gets your bows into their optimal range and gives you more space to flee back into, rally and then carry on shooting. By double-fleeing charges and redirecting you can have an odd situation where your opponent is quite close to you for several turns but never actually gets into many of your points- this will happen a lot if you tend to play vs armies that are 2-3 massive blocks without much chaff, you just double flee all their charges and keep shooting. The difficulties start to come in when you play against armies like Ogres that have multiple threats that you need to redirect/flee from, such as triple Mournfang + 2 Ironblasters + the Gutstar + something else, so this is by no means a definitive, foolproof, "do this and you will win" tactic but is instead in my opinion a good way to think about what you're doing.
Part 3:
Spoiler:
Eagle (50 pts)
Squad (50 pts)
Eagles are very useful indeed, they can get the last wound off the mage that miscast earlier or hunt chaff or they can redirect. I tend to spend my eagles early on quite often as most people will identify that when playing against MSU Wood Elves killing off the redirectors early on is a good plan, and so they attract lots of war machine/magic missile fire in the early game. If my opponent can't kill them (VC, for example, don't have a good way of dealing with them at range) then I keep them alive floating around the back of the board ready to jump in where they need to be, but a lot of the time they redirect turns 2-3 if they're still alive so that I get at least some use out of them before they die. Also, you want to be spending your redirectors in the order of ascending points, the cheap stuff goes first, then you use the Dryads to protect the Glade Guard, then the smaller units to protect the big unit then the big unit to protect the characters if needs be. Essentially, what you're trying to do is trade more favourably than your opponent as you will eventually run out of room to flee into- they get 2-3 units of Glade Guard and your chaff, you get their chaff and 1-2 of their big units.
Any time you redirect, whether it's with eagles or something else, you have to be very careful the you're not offering up any over-run paths or pursuit avenues into more of your units- you can get into hot water very fast if your opponent is able to catch multiple units this way, not just because it means they kill more but if they over-run into more stuff in their turn it means you can't shoot them in your turn. This is absolutely one of the most important things to watch out for, and can be tricky when playing against really wide units.
Waywatchers (6#, 144 pts)
Waywatchers (6#, 144 pts)
They're very expensive, but I am a big fan of Waywatchers as they do something that nothing else in the list can do- that is, threaten things like Scar-Vets, WoC disc characters or Dark Elf pegasus heroes. Without the risk of Killing Blow, there's not really much you can do to stop these things running roughshod over you. The Scouting is very useful as it gets them to where they need to be, and they're near invulnerable to BS shooting (just be wary of Lifetaker). However, they do attract a lot of magic missiles.
Because of their ability to march and shoot, they don't always need to be committed far forwards in order to work. Instead, if my opponent has something that I really need to use the KB to get rid of, I will keep my WWs in my deployment zone (or just outside) so that they stay safe, but can still do what I need them to do. They also make for good chaff killers, getting rid of things like Sabretusks that you wouldn't want to spend a whole unit of Glade Guard on, and when you have a unit in your killzone make sure to fire the WWs last- use the Glade Guard to kill the rank and file, then the WWs to step in and go for the Killing Blow on any characters that may be in there.
Overall with Wood Elves, the most important thing is to always look on the positive side of the game regardless of the result- I can guarantee that there will be games that you lose where you outplayed your opponent but made one small mistake, but the best thing to do in my experience is to identify what went wrong and just don't do it again. Also, just be very very careful and think through everything that you do. There's no safety net with Wood Elves, and even small errors can cost you dear. However, once you get the hang of them, they are a very fun army and can be pretty competitive- not top tier, but a lot better than people give them credit for. Personally, I've had more fun playing with them this year than at any other time with any other army whilst I've been playing the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/08 05:57:10
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
You messed up something on the OK section. Thundertusk riders don't have Killing Blow. Only the Chaintrap has killing blow, and its a ranged weapon.
And the Dragonhide banner is best taken on Mournfangs. It essentially allows them to reroll everything on the turn they charged. The ASL effect from the Breath Weapon is small beans compared to that.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: You messed up something on the OK section. Thundertusk riders don't have Killing Blow. Only the Chaintrap has killing blow, and its a ranged weapon.
And the Dragonhide banner is best taken on Mournfangs. It essentially allows them to reroll everything on the turn they charged. The ASL effect from the Breath Weapon is small beans compared to that.
...Warriors of Chaos aren't event on the list. Are they that unpopular of an army that there's nothing to say about them? (Genuine question coming from a non-WFB player)
2012/10/12 05:54:57
Subject: Re:8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I think he just isn't done making all the tactica. WoC are actually a popular army.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well, I would say there arn't many competitive tactics in the army.
Its a fairly simple army to play.
1: Do you want Tzeentch or Khorne theme, or a mix of the two?
2: Do you want to run Marauders or Warriors mostly?
3: Shove your army into the enemy's face.
They are in need of a new book to make it balanced between the 4 gods.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Xyrael wrote: ...Warriors of Chaos aren't event on the list. Are they that unpopular of an army that there's nothing to say about them? (Genuine question coming from a non-WFB player)
Thanks for the reminder, Warrior of Chaos is indeed in the Tactica, but it was shoved into the Vampire Counts by accident due to missing " [/spoiler " xD
Also should note that under High Elves the first thing it says is:
Overall Army Style: Slow moving and reaction. Elite in strength, toughness, armor, and leadership. Do you like DINOSAURS? :'P
Battalion Purchase 20 Saurus Warriors, 12 Skinks, 10 Temple Guard 8 Saurus Cavalry $110 of $137.50 Bundle Saving of 20% Off.
Brought to you by: Jubear
Pretty sure Saurus Warriors aren't very Elfy.
2012/10/13 06:45:03
Subject: Re:8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
Hey Lunahound, I think on the OP you should put a big *REMINDER* that some of those entries are based on the opinion of the respective writer and may stray from objectivity.
I'd just like to make sure for new players to actually be reminded to give an army/unit a fair chance or at least try to read an objective summary of an army/unit.
currently playing: ASoIaF | Warhammer 40k: Kill Team
other favorites:
FO:WW | RUMBLESLAM | WarmaHordes | Carnevale | Infinity | Warcry | Wrath of Kings
Xyrael wrote: Also should note that under High Elves the first thing it says is:
Overall Army Style: Slow moving and reaction. Elite in strength, toughness, armor, and leadership. Do you like DINOSAURS? :'P
Battalion Purchase 20 Saurus Warriors, 12 Skinks, 10 Temple Guard 8 Saurus Cavalry $110 of $137.50 Bundle Saving of 20% Off.
Brought to you by: Jubear
Pretty sure Saurus Warriors aren't very Elfy.
The High Elf tactica in general seems a bit iffy. Princes aren't "overpriced", our shooting options, while limited, aren't "useless" and heavy cavalry certainly isn't useless in 8th edition.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2012/10/14 04:33:33
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote: Hey Lunahound, I think on the OP you should put a big *REMINDER* that some of those entries are based on the opinion of the respective writer and may stray from objectivity.
I'd just like to make sure for new players to actually be reminded to give an army/unit a fair chance or at least try to read an objective summary of an army/unit.
Xyrael wrote: Also should note that under High Elves the first thing it says is:
Overall Army Style: Slow moving and reaction. Elite in strength, toughness, armor, and leadership. Do you like DINOSAURS? :'P
Battalion Purchase 20 Saurus Warriors, 12 Skinks, 10 Temple Guard 8 Saurus Cavalry $110 of $137.50 Bundle Saving of 20% Off.
Brought to you by: Jubear
Pretty sure Saurus Warriors aren't very Elfy.
The High Elf tactica in general seems a bit iffy. Princes aren't "overpriced", our shooting options, while limited, aren't "useless" and heavy cavalry certainly isn't useless in 8th edition.
Okee, any other additional tips or info I can input?
Xyrael wrote: Also should note that under High Elves the first thing it says is:
Overall Army Style: Slow moving and reaction. Elite in strength, toughness, armor, and leadership. Do you like DINOSAURS? :'P
Battalion Purchase 20 Saurus Warriors, 12 Skinks, 10 Temple Guard 8 Saurus Cavalry $110 of $137.50 Bundle Saving of 20% Off.
Brought to you by: Jubear
Pretty sure Saurus Warriors aren't very Elfy.
The High Elf tactica in general seems a bit iffy. Princes aren't "overpriced", our shooting options, while limited, aren't "useless" and heavy cavalry certainly isn't useless in 8th edition.
you, sir, read my mind.
currently playing: ASoIaF | Warhammer 40k: Kill Team
other favorites:
FO:WW | RUMBLESLAM | WarmaHordes | Carnevale | Infinity | Warcry | Wrath of Kings
Xyrael wrote: Also should note that under High Elves the first thing it says is:
Overall Army Style: Slow moving and reaction. Elite in strength, toughness, armor, and leadership. Do you like DINOSAURS? :'P
Battalion Purchase 20 Saurus Warriors, 12 Skinks, 10 Temple Guard 8 Saurus Cavalry $110 of $137.50 Bundle Saving of 20% Off.
Brought to you by: Jubear
Pretty sure Saurus Warriors aren't very Elfy.
The High Elf tactica in general seems a bit iffy. Princes aren't "overpriced", our shooting options, while limited, aren't "useless" and heavy cavalry certainly isn't useless in 8th edition.
you, sir, read my mind.
Any chance of an addition from you 2 so I can edit into the first page?
Im by no means good at warhammer... thus I require input.
Xyrael wrote: Also should note that under High Elves the first thing it says is:
Overall Army Style: Slow moving and reaction. Elite in strength, toughness, armor, and leadership. Do you like DINOSAURS? :'P
Battalion Purchase 20 Saurus Warriors, 12 Skinks, 10 Temple Guard 8 Saurus Cavalry $110 of $137.50 Bundle Saving of 20% Off.
Brought to you by: Jubear
Pretty sure Saurus Warriors aren't very Elfy.
The High Elf tactica in general seems a bit iffy. Princes aren't "overpriced", our shooting options, while limited, aren't "useless" and heavy cavalry certainly isn't useless in 8th edition.
you, sir, read my mind.
I wrote the HE guide very early into the life of 8th... At the time my gaming group basically had a gentlemens agrement to ban a few items/SCs for me it was the book of hoath and Teclis...While I still maintain that HE lords are overpriced and heavy cavalry is fairly useless. I do concede that if you play in a gaming group that allows the book of hoath then the all archer for min core/shadow build works very well (its the list I play nearly all the time now) I am not willing to budge on the heavy cavalry tho as they still suffer from being to expensive to be used for redirectors and simply dont have the damage output to be a hammer unit. Not to mention they suck up special allowance that is better filled with PG,WLs or SMs
Damn I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out now there is a dex that will conquer all.
2012/10/14 18:59:19
Subject: 8th Edition Fantasy Comprehensive Armies Tactica & Discussion (New Player? check it!)
Any chance of an addition from you 2 so I can edit into the first page?
Im by no means good at warhammer... thus I require input.
Well, I'm no HE connoisseur (only played vs. them twice, watched a couple games as well...not a lot of HE players around these parts), but I can suggest looking at 1d4chan's (I think arguably the best tactics site there is outside of an army's fan site) tactics page for HE. It's mostly objective (while still putting their crude twist on it).
Not to call out Jubear's descriptions or anything, but I'll give 1d4chan's examples of the 3 units that AlmightyWalrus pointed out...
- Prince: Princes personify everything about the High Elves: Fast as hell, kickass in close combat, can take a variety of special stuff, about as hard as wet tissue. Be sure to give this guy an armor or ward save, or else he will get his ass killed. Aside from that, he's a brutal close combat Lord (WS7, I8, ASF) and properly kitted out there's very little this guy can't kill. Do note, however, that there is no reason to EVER take a Halberd, as a Great Weapon is only a little more and is unaffected by Always Strikes Last. Also, Dragon Armor lol's at flaming attacks and breath weapons and only costs 3 points more, so it's always worth the extra investment. Look for the variety of killy options down in the magic weapons.
- Archers: A good unit overall. Longbows and high BS give them a good range and a solid ability to damage small lightly armored units (don't count on them to do too much to heavy armor). They work really well in 2 or so groups of 10, especially when combined with Repeater Bolt Throwers (you should generally concentrate fire). High WS, I, and LD along with Always Strikes First allows them to resist attempts by small units of light cavalry (it'll take more than a unit of Mounted Yeomen to deal with these) but you shouldn't be counting on them to do combat duties. Players are split on whether to take Light Armor: On a 10 man unit, not taking Light Armor could deny you an 11th model, but if you want to keep your model count low, Light Armor does make them marginally more survivable. Don't bother with Command beyond Musician. Just a side note, Archers having Longbows is superior in range to Lothern Sea Guard having simple Bows, and this can make a world of difference when trying to outrange certain weapons such as Dark Elf Repeater Crossbows
- Repeater Bolt Thrower: Neither of the Rare Choices are precisely blue chip units, but Repeater Bolt Throwers are the less reliable of the pair. It does have good range, and it is your only war machine, but it is still a bit overpriced and depends upon lots of protection to be effective. Also, it is a primary target for magic and shooting, and only has two wounds. It might be useful in a shooting heavy army, but generally not a good option.
- Dragon Princes of Caledor: Dragon Princes hit harder than any unit has a right to with two attacks and while heavy cavalry has generally fallen out of favor these guys remain popular due to the ubiquity of flaming attacks and breath weapons (although they are no longer immune, they merely get a 2+ ward save against it). Therefore, if you Daemons of Chaos opponent likes Tzeentch and it's flaming attacks, take these guys and see hime cry. If you're playing a defensive list, they're probably not worth your time, but offensive lists can generally find a place for them.
Each entry gives the pros and cons and general approach you should consider when fielding the unit. It's pretty impartial and considers all play styles, which I believe is what a tactics page should be (although there still are times they say "this unit sucks, never take it", but those are usually pretty irrefutable).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/14 18:59:59
currently playing: ASoIaF | Warhammer 40k: Kill Team
other favorites:
FO:WW | RUMBLESLAM | WarmaHordes | Carnevale | Infinity | Warcry | Wrath of Kings