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 Gloomfang wrote:
I ment more in general why I have a Prime. Against Paladins i would just send in waves of spawned termigaunt to tie them up.

Damn straight. Especially with the removal of No Retreat!, such a tactic is extremely effective. A nemesis force blender can only nemesis force blend so much before it gets jammed up with gooey bits.

(...I miss the days of Lemartes killing 40 gaunts in one assault phase...)

 Fafnir wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Makumba wrote:why wouldnt the GK player just accept with a pally first turn . kill of the guards and on next turn when swarm challanges again , decline with a paladin and hit him with a draigo and paladins with hammers to kill him off ?

The Nid player picks who to send back.

"Honestly, you might as well just take the challenge on a Ward Stave Paladin. Let him eat whatever comes his way, while you clean out the rest of the Swarmlord's retinue to ensure the job is done right next turn."

Its not about the Tyrant Guard, let them die. Do you think a Toughness 7-9 eternal warrior swarmlord gives a cr@p? Let a swarmlord with preferred enemy hit a ward stave 4 times and give him 3 wounds... thats 3x 2+ saves that the palladin has to reroll if succesfull. Very good change he dies.

shogun wrote:

Grey Templar wrote: Regardless, its a very bad situation for the Swarmlord. If he fails his Endurance psychic test its all over, assuming he actually got Endurance in the first place. Then the Paladins need only one wound to get through his 4++ and he instantly dies(Brotherhood banner=autopass psychic test)


Not to mention he can Deny the Witch your Enfeeble attempts on 5+(or 4+ if its not the Swarmlord casting) and you are at -1Ld for casting purposes(or -4 if there's a dreadnought around)

He will get Endurance in the first place because he will not charge without this power (or get within 18 inch of the paladins). he will be save for two close combat turns. If he's in a challenge with draigo he got an extra close combat turn with his I6. If he uses his "preferred enemy" upgrade on himself he probably got enough attacks to kill Draigo.

Also dont forget he's got "precision strike" against the palladins and could kill of daemonhammers before the strike.

"Are we assuming that the Grey Knights won't shoot?

Assuming 2 tyrant guard, it'll only take two rounds of shooting for a unit of Paladins to wipe out a Swarm Lord and his retinue. If Swarmy decides to stay outside of 18 inches, the Paladins have already won."

No, really - even a T7-9 Swarmlord can get squished by all the hammers a squad brings.

Yes, he'll kill more paladins than in 5th. They will end up rocking his world.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, really - even a T7-9 Swarmlord can get squished by all the hammers a squad brings.

Yes, he'll kill more paladins than in 5th. They will end up rocking his world.

If its a unit with Draigo, Draigo will be in a challenge, backing out of a challenge, or sumbody else will be in a challenge (ward save).

1] If Draigo takes the challenge then theirs a good chance the swarmlord wins if he got "endurance" for 3 turns. He will only assault if he got's this power so he will at least last for 2 turns.

2] If Draigo backs out then the swarmlord goes first and all hits on 6 will go to the hammers (precision strikes). even when he doesn't kill hamers beforehand he will face about 3 hammers max, right?
thats 9 attacks (banner) 4,5 hits, 4 wounds, 4+ inv save so about 2 wounds. He went first so he already killed a few paladins beforehand and not getting a lot of more wounds in return.

3] If a paladin with a ward save takes the challenge then he will be dead or the swarmlord is fighting for a few turns while the rest of the tyranid army takes objectives.

And dont forget that if the paladins lose combat the have to take a morale test (not fearless right?)

Why is everybody underestimating the swarmlord... I dont get it?

Draigo have Fearless. And now it applies to the unit.

shogun wrote:
2] If Draigo backs out then the swarmlord goes first and all hits on 6 will go to the hammers (precision strikes). even when he doesn't kill hamers beforehand he will face about 3 hammers max, right?
thats 9 attacks (banner) 4,5 hits, 4 wounds, 4+ inv save so about 2 wounds. He went first so he already killed a few paladins beforehand and not getting a lot of more wounds in return.

Why is the Swarmlord getting the charge?
When the paladins charge Swarmy is init 1.
I've seen 4 hammers recently per 10 man squad, plus Coteaz - so 5 hammers, probably rerolling to hits (thanks broken Dviniation Primaris power!)
Why does he have 3 turns of Endurance? He has to test each time.

And dont forget that if the paladins lose combat the have to take a morale test (not fearless right?)

They are now with Draigo.

Why is everybody underestimating the swarmlord... I dont get it?

I'm not underestimating. I've played this out. Multiple times. Even when Swarmy gets the charge, has Endurance and Iron Arm, rolls max for Iron Arm, and doesn't fail to cast either one he ends up losing maybe tying up the Paladin Star for 2 turns.

Which makes sense because the Paladin Star is about 1k points and a Swarmy star is about half that.

Swarmy needs speed, without it he is just a moving target for people to shoot down.
He needs a delivery device, or he will just get kited around until dead.

The best chance against Draigo/paladins is to tie them up with termagants and otherwise ignore them. Last night, about 1000 points of Draigowing slaughtered their way through about 45 Termagants over a couple turns - allowing me to cover the other 4 objectives with my troops.

It was infuriating for the GK player. Sorry, but ignoring them works really well for me. They are slow. :]

rigeld2 wrote:

shogun wrote:
2] If Draigo backs out then the swarmlord goes first and all hits on 6 will go to the hammers (precision strikes). even when he doesn't kill hamers beforehand he will face about 3 hammers max, right?
thats 9 attacks (banner) 4,5 hits, 4 wounds, 4+ inv save so about 2 wounds. He went first so he already killed a few paladins beforehand and not getting a lot of more wounds in return.

Why is the Swarmlord getting the charge?
When the paladins charge Swarmy is init 1.
I've seen 4 hammers recently per 10 man squad, plus Coteaz - so 5 hammers, probably rerolling to hits (thanks broken Dviniation Primaris power!)
Why does he have 3 turns of Endurance? He has to test each time.

And dont forget that if the paladins lose combat the have to take a morale test (not fearless right?)

They are now with Draigo.

Why is everybody underestimating the swarmlord... I dont get it?

I'm not underestimating. I've played this out. Multiple times. Even when Swarmy gets the charge, has Endurance and Iron Arm, rolls max for Iron Arm, and doesn't fail to cast either one he ends up losing maybe tying up the Paladin Star for 2 turns.

Which makes sense because the Paladin Star is about 1k points and a Swarmy star is about half that.

Its funny how people keep adding other units to the deathstar palladins to make sure the kill the swarmlord. One guy said: "swarmlord will be useless against paladins in close combat", and I said: "not necessarily" And now the paladins got : the ability to take down a swarmlord with two 2 hivegaurds with two rounds of shooting, a dreadnought nearby, a level 3 librarian and coteaz to make sure the will win. Okay, you got me! If 10 paladins bring at least 4 hammers and coteaz with divination and also charge the swarmlord, he will lose. Other than that, i wouldn't be so sure.

Level 3 librarian? Who mentioned that? Coteaz is perfectly capable.

And any paladin list skipping Draigos is insane. The potential to have re-rolling to-hits and ignore cover on the same unit, especially one as shooty as a paladin star is amazing.

Edit: even if swarmy gets the charge I wouldn't be so sure he'll do more than survive another round. He won't win.

And against a unit at least triple his point cost he shouldn't.

rigeld2 wrote:
Level 3 librarian? Who mentioned that? Coteaz is perfectly capable.

And any paladin list skipping Draigos is insane. The potential to have re-rolling to-hits and ignore cover on the same unit, especially one as shooty as a paladin star is amazing.

Edit: even if swarmy gets the charge I wouldn't be so sure he'll do more than survive another round. He won't win.

And against a unit at least triple his point cost he shouldn't.

About the librarian/dreadnought, I was talking about a few other posts back.

When the swarmlord charges he can use two powers: "iron arms" and maybe "warp speed" or "enfeeble" if a tervigon already gave him "endurance". Iron arms a must so if doenst get this power he will let them termagaunts do the work.

Swarmlord will "challenge" but its better for Draigo to refuse and walk away.

If coteaz used "precience" then the swarmlords (with preferred enemy) needs to kill the "banner" or "hammers/coteaz" so al 6's will go towards them ("precision strike"). all other attacks will be blocked by ward save but will mostly kill that paladin. then 4 hammer paladins with 12 attacks and coteaz with 4 attacks strike back. 9 paladin hits and 3 coteaz hits, thats about 10 wounds, after saves thats 5 wounds and after feel no pain thats 3/4 wounds. End of the turn the swarmlord get "it will not die" and restores 1 wound.

Second If coteaz is still alive he has to cast his "precience" with 3d6 (shadow in the warp).

As you can see its a very "fragile" close combat battle because if theirs a single "weird" thing the balance could shift in one direction. A successful "enfeeble" could really screw up the hammers but a single ward save paladin could keep the swarmlord busy for 3 turns. Swarmlord could get perils before he attacks and coteaz could fail his "precience".

shogun wrote:
If coteaz used "precience" then the swarmlords (with preferred enemy) needs to kill the "banner" or "hammers/coteaz" so al 6's will go towards them ("precision strike"). all other attacks will be blocked by ward save but will mostly kill that paladin. then 4 hammer paladins with 12 attacks and coteaz with 4 attacks strike back. 9 paladin hits and 3 coteaz hits, thats about 10 wounds, after saves thats 5 wounds and after feel no pain thats 3/4 wounds. End of the turn the swarmlord get "it will not die" and restores 1 wound.

Remember, we're talking absolute best case scenario for the Swarmlord here. If he doesn't have Iron Arm for +3T you have to count all those halberd and sword attacks as well - even with a +2T they wound on a 6 and that's a LOT of dice to hope don't roll 6's.

rigeld2 wrote:

shogun wrote:
If coteaz used "precience" then the swarmlords (with preferred enemy) needs to kill the "banner" or "hammers/coteaz" so al 6's will go towards them ("precision strike"). all other attacks will be blocked by ward save but will mostly kill that paladin. then 4 hammer paladins with 12 attacks and coteaz with 4 attacks strike back. 9 paladin hits and 3 coteaz hits, thats about 10 wounds, after saves thats 5 wounds and after feel no pain thats 3/4 wounds. End of the turn the swarmlord get "it will not die" and restores 1 wound.

Remember, we're talking absolute best case scenario for the Swarmlord here. If he doesn't have Iron Arm for +3T you have to count all those halberd and sword attacks as well - even with a +2T they wound on a 6 and that's a LOT of dice to hope don't roll 6's.

S4 against S8 does nothing. If the swarmlord only got +1 toughness I will only charge if I got a successful "enfeeble". Hammerhand power will suffer "shadow in the warp". If the swarmlord also got warp speed he will have an extra 2 attacks (average) making it more likely to do more damage. I didn't count warpspeed in the above scenario. If the swarmlord got Toughness 9 the S10 hammers still need 3+ to wound (if the got hammerhand) I also didnt count this in the above scenario. So its not the best case scenario...

shogun wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

shogun wrote:
If coteaz used "precience" then the swarmlords (with preferred enemy) needs to kill the "banner" or "hammers/coteaz" so al 6's will go towards them ("precision strike"). all other attacks will be blocked by ward save but will mostly kill that paladin. then 4 hammer paladins with 12 attacks and coteaz with 4 attacks strike back. 9 paladin hits and 3 coteaz hits, thats about 10 wounds, after saves thats 5 wounds and after feel no pain thats 3/4 wounds. End of the turn the swarmlord get "it will not die" and restores 1 wound.

Remember, we're talking absolute best case scenario for the Swarmlord here. If he doesn't have Iron Arm for +3T you have to count all those halberd and sword attacks as well - even with a +2T they wound on a 6 and that's a LOT of dice to hope don't roll 6's.

S4 against S8 does nothing. If the swarmlord only got +1 toughness I will only charge if I got a successful "enfeeble". Hammerhand power will suffer "shadow in the warp". If the swarmlord also got warp speed he will have an extra 2 attacks (average) making it more likely to do more damage. I didn't count warpspeed in the above scenario. If the swarmlord got Toughness 9 the S10 hammers still need 3+ to wound (if the got hammerhand) I also didnt count this in the above scenario. So its not the best case scenario...

Sure hammerhand suffers from SitW.
Paladins cast it.
Draigo casts it.
Depending on what he's already cast this turn Coteaz casts it.

One or two of those three will make it through.

Does Swarmlord have EW?

If not, only a single wound needs to make it through for him to go poof. And with banner auto-activation... this isn't that difficult.

Twin bonesword warriors might be a good choice.
Considering they completely ignore armor saves (and aren't power weapons) and cause instant death on 3d6 LD with 3 attacks. You could potentially wipe out a unit of Paladins.

MCs already ignore armor saves so the only benifit to Boneswords is the ID on 3D6 Ld test. Which Draigo can just tank away.

Engaging a Palidinstar in melee is just flat out the worst way to deal with it. You ignore it, or drop AP2 pie plates on it from a safe distance.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Does Swarmlord have EW?

If not, only a single wound needs to make it through for him to go poof. And with banner auto-activation... this isn't that difficult.

When Iron Arm goes off he does indeed have EW. Since the Paladins don't have any way of negating that Iron Arm it's pretty much a guarantee that it'll go off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
MCs already ignore armor saves so the only benifit to Boneswords is the ID on 3D6 Ld test. Which Draigo can just tank away.

That and the Swarmlord already causes ID with every hit.

Engaging a Palidinstar in melee is just flat out the worst way to deal with it. You ignore it, or drop AP2 pie plates on it from a safe distance.

Exactly this. Or throw spawned termagant units at it.

But as said, if he does fail to get Iron Arm off(16%) or doesn't get it as a power he's screwed. Lots of Ifs there to make it a very unreliable tactic.

I've had fun with a handful of twin bonesword Warriors- they can help take down a few paladins before dying, assuming the pallies are tied up with termagants already.

You should never charge in Swarmy + guards unsupported. Against a pallystar, you need to hit them with multiple units, preferably Swarmy's unit and some cheap, throwaway termagants/gargoyles to tie up his paladins. This way, they can't gang up on Swarmy and need to waste their time killing off gants. Try especially to lock up Draigo with a termagant. Then Swarmy can take his sweet time insta-killing paladins.

As a Nid player who has faced GK paladins a ton of times your outright best defense is to ignore them and tarpit them, period. tarpit them with toxin hormagaunts and walk away, might just swallow them in wounds, if not youll soak up... like 2-3 turns slowing them down.

IF tarpit is not an option-
Here's a few options in order of best choice

1. Use Doom of Malantai

2. Scream them to death, a great combo would be 3 zoans re-roll powers to telepathy and give them the primaris power shriek get em close enough and easily scream them to death using them as miniature dooms.
-OR give one of them them telekinesis primaris which allows re roll miss and then the other 2 get to lance them off, (not super reliable) HOWEVER it also allows units within 12" the ability to re-roll as well so thats 30 devour gaunts, with 3 shots each, targeted onto them with re-roll to hit. weight of fire stands a chance.

3. your one and only melee chance.
tyrant/swarmlord (prefer against him as trust me he isnt worth the points sadly) enfeeble, assault with whips to get first hit AFTER making sure your iron armed the enfeeble will ensure they have a much harder time to wound you with a chance to make it impossible, IF i were you i would take a tyrant with a 2+ save with lash and bone and some other weapon as he is cheaper and more combat viable than a swarmlord (i know sad as it is 250 ish points outright better than 400+) for the reason of YES the swarmlord has an awesome 4+ invul... yea well those force weapons dont cut through a 2+ save do they? and hes cheaper so IF/ probably WHEN they kill him your losing 250 ish points not 400 ish points.

Lash will help you go first
enfeeble will make sure your str 6 auto kills not allowing them the FNP if they have it
Iron arm will hopefully help 2 things.. if enfeeble fails... str 8 wills till do it, and if toughness is high enough they cant do anything to him anyways.

still best case scenario is to straight up tarpit them and avoid them or try your best to shoot them to death.

I have found that Enfeebl helps signifigantly, and what ever unit hits them has catalyst will help.

I put 30 gargoyles into them the last game, and it took two full turns, but eventually 4 gargoyles flew away. Just an enormus ammount of attacks each time and they crumpled with weight of fire.

Shadowmyth515 wrote:
As a Nid player who has faced GK paladins a ton of times your outright best defense is to ignore them and tarpit them, period. tarpit them with toxin hormagaunts and walk away, might just swallow them in wounds, if not youll soak up... like 2-3 turns slowing them down.

Why not a cheaper basic termagant unit? tarpits should be as cheap as possible.

-OR give one of them them telekinesis primaris which allows re roll miss and then the other 2 get to lance them off, (not super reliable) HOWEVER it also allows units within 12" the ability to re-roll as well so thats 30 devour gaunts, with 3 shots each, targeted onto them with re-roll to hit. weight of fire stands a chance.

The telekinesis primaris power is a beam attack. I think you are getting confused with the divintaion primaris which we nids don't have any option to go for.