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I've been playing against my brother using my bugs so far this edition, I've managed to munch all of his deathstars using the swarm lord and psychic powers except Paladins. I was wondering how are tyranids supposed to deal with them this edition? Please let me know what you think, the only requirement is that any particular list idea must include the swarm lord with two tyrant guard. Thanks in advance.

You have a few choices in how to deal with such a unit. My personal opinion would be to keep your big baddies out of CC. They can activate the force weapons and get off a cast of hammer hand and ID your MC pretty easily.

Instead I would go the containment route. Run a few tervigons and spew out termagaunts to feed them. As long as a single model survives in CC and they are within synapse combat keeps going on. Paladins are meant to tear about expensive units. If they are stuck killing 5 point models they are wasted.

Also you can use enfeeble (-1 to str and tough) to lower their toughness and let your little ones ID them. (Two casts will drop them to T2.)

The Swarmlord can be pretty nasty vs Paladins, especially if you get + cast Iron Arm (most of them won't even be able to wound you if you roll high enough). The Doom can also be handy since he can potentially kill entire models when he lands nearby, and then can cast Cataclysm on the unit to ID some more. A large unit of Genestealers would also be recommended.

Alternatively, throw 30 Termagaunts/Gargoyles at the unit and just tarpit it for multiple turns.

Zro1312 wrote:
the only requirement is that any particular list idea must include the swarm lord with two tyrant guard.

Sure, you can do that, but it doesn't change the fact that no matter how you run it, Swarmy and his boys will still be completely useless. If you actually try to run Swarmy up against a unit of Paladins, he'll be swiftly one-shotted. If the Paladins get the charge, Swarmy will be attacking at I1 (meaning that he won't actually be attacking at all). That's assuming he even makes it into assault range. And don't forget Draigo, who'll be hitting Swarmy at S10.
If you don't run him into the Paladins, then he's still wasted points, since the Paladin player will use the Paladins as a wall to keep Swarmy away from the rest of their army.

Flood them with multiple cheap units while outmaneuvering them.

You'll never outfight Paladins, which means you shouldn't worry about fighting them in the first place.

Couple of trygons. Enfeeble.

Couple of brainleech worms. Enfeeble.

Hive Guard (not so good but still useful as you may include in a TAC list)

Termagants, enfeeble enfeeble.

Termagants.

Combine tarpitting tactics with roadblock ringing his paladins or your own units - if you don't want to try any of the top 4. Nids have a large variety of answers.

Warpspeed or iron arm on the swarmlord is amazing! warpspeed increases the amount of wounds that get through that make him reroll his successful invul saves. Casting both is possible too if you roll on the chart just right. Another thing i do with deathstar units is to use Zoanthropes to throw out enfeeble. with enough casts devourers and other strength 4 weapons/ gribblies will instant kill the model. If they dont roll those, just take smite and shoot down termies with that. Usually my opponents are too focused on the swarmlord to notice two zoeys.

 Fafnir wrote:
Sure, you can do that, but it doesn't change the fact that no matter how you run it, Swarmy and his boys will still be completely useless. If you actually try to run Swarmy up against a unit of Paladins, he'll be swiftly one-shotted. If the Paladins get the charge, Swarmy will be attacking at I1 (meaning that he won't actually be attacking at all). That's assuming he even makes it into assault range. And don't forget Draigo, who'll be hitting Swarmy at S10.
If you don't run him into the Paladins, then he's still wasted points, since the Paladin player will use the Paladins as a wall to keep Swarmy away from the rest of their army.

Flood them with multiple cheap units while outmaneuvering them.

You'll never outfight Paladins, which means you shouldn't worry about fighting them in the first place.

When swarmy got the +d3 toughness and eternal warrior power (iron arms)+ the palladins lose a 1 or 2 strength and toughness (enfeeble) shouldn't he be able to take them on?

 Fafnir wrote:
Sure, you can do that, but it doesn't change the fact that no matter how you run it, Swarmy and his boys will still be completely useless.

If you let swarmy take 4 telepathy powers you got a very good change that he will have hallucination. When you do, you should also take telepathy powers with your tervigons. first hit the palladins with "terrify" and then cast "hallucination".

shogun wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Sure, you can do that, but it doesn't change the fact that no matter how you run it, Swarmy and his boys will still be completely useless. If you actually try to run Swarmy up against a unit of Paladins, he'll be swiftly one-shotted. If the Paladins get the charge, Swarmy will be attacking at I1 (meaning that he won't actually be attacking at all). That's assuming he even makes it into assault range. And don't forget Draigo, who'll be hitting Swarmy at S10.
If you don't run him into the Paladins, then he's still wasted points, since the Paladin player will use the Paladins as a wall to keep Swarmy away from the rest of their army.

Flood them with multiple cheap units while outmaneuvering them.

You'll never outfight Paladins, which means you shouldn't worry about fighting them in the first place.

When swarmy got the +d3 toughness and eternal warrior power (iron arms)+ the palladins lose a 1 or 2 strength and toughness (enfeeble) shouldn't he be able to take them on?

Draigo is always S10 against psykers and daemons, which means he'll always be wounding Swarmy on 3+ or better (most likely a 2+).

 Fafnir wrote:
Sure, you can do that, but it doesn't change the fact that no matter how you run it, Swarmy and his boys will still be completely useless.

If you let swarmy take 4 telepathy powers you got a very good change that he will have hallucination. When you do, you should also take telepathy powers with your tervigons. first hit the palladins with "terrify" and then cast "hallucination".

And if that's the case, the Paladins might end up rolling with a Psyrifleman dreadnought's improved Aegis (I'll assume most GK players are smarter than me and actually use Dreadnoughts), making those powers cast at Ld6, combined with the bonus of having a 5+ DtW with Draigo, or possibly a 4+ with a Level 3 Librarian. Not entirely reliable. Especially since you'd be putting yourself right within prime GK kill (24") range to even try it. Furthermore, you wouldn't be able to properly capitalize on it for at least 2 turns within said range.

It could certainly work, but I wouldn't rely on it, or consider it a counter.

With a bit of luck, you can do it with just the swarmlord and a pack of Ymgarl genestealers.

Cast Enfeeble on the paladins to drop them to T3.
Use the swarmlords Swarm Leader ability to give the Ymgarls furious charge.
Then use the Ymgarls Alter Form ability to bump up their strength another point to S6.

Now your genestealers are causing instant death with every unsaved wound.

 Melchiour wrote:


Also you can use enfeeble (-1 to str and tough) to lower their toughness and let your little ones ID them. (Two casts will drop them to T2.)

You can't case enfeeble twice on the same unit.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

 Melchiour wrote:


Also you can use enfeeble (-1 to str and tough) to lower their toughness and let your little ones ID them. (Two casts will drop them to T2.)

You can't case enfeeble twice on the same unit.

Yes you can. Otherwise by that logic GK players can only cast hammer hand once per unit, etc.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:

 Melchiour wrote:


Also you can use enfeeble (-1 to str and tough) to lower their toughness and let your little ones ID them. (Two casts will drop them to T2.)

You can't case enfeeble twice on the same unit.

Yes you can. Otherwise by that logic GK players can only cast hammer hand once per unit, etc.

They can. Hammerhand stacks from multiple sources because it specificly says so, but each unit is only allowed to use it once per turn.

All psychic powers can stack unless they specifically say they can't, that is per of the basic psyhic rules, the only limitiation when stacking is that you can't reduce a stat below 1.

So you can enfeeble paladins up to 3 times effectively. Then pour in lots of shooting to ID them.

Nids don't deal with Paladins at all really, they just have to deny them. The Tervigon idea posted above is the best one as they will waste their potential chewing through Gaunts.

And multiples Enfeebles is a terrible idea since it is a randomly rolled for spell and thus not really strategy.

 Fafnir wrote:
Draigo is always S10 against psykers and daemons, which means he'll always be wounding Swarmy on 3+ or better (most likely a 2+).

Yes, but with iron arms the swarmlord got "eternal warrior" even when draigo charges with his grenades he got 5 attacks hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 2+ and then the swarmlord got a 4+ inv save and most likely an extra feel no pain save (endurance). So draigo did 1 wound. Then the Swarmlord hits with 4 attacks on a 3+ and wounds on a 2+ and Draigo got to do about 2x 3+ stormshield saves which he he has to reroll if succesfull = about 1 wound. Next turn Swarmlord gets to go first (no grenades), Draigo loses his extra attack for charging and with "endurance" the swarmlord could return a wound on a 5+.

Meanwhile paladins can kill any leftover Tyrant gaurd's but after that the can only wait until draigo finishes his challenge.

How can you say he is useless against Paladins/Draigo? Am I missing sumthing?

 Fafnir wrote:
And if that's the case, the Paladins might end up rolling with a Psyrifleman dreadnought's improved Aegis (I'll assume most GK players are smarter than me and actually use Dreadnoughts), making those powers cast at Ld6, combined with the bonus of having a 5+ DtW with Draigo, or possibly a 4+ with a Level 3 Librarian. Not entirely reliable. Especially since you'd be putting yourself right within prime GK kill (24") range to even try it. Furthermore, you wouldn't be able to properly capitalize on it for at least 2 turns within said range.

It could certainly work, but I wouldn't rely on it, or consider it a counter.

Yes, but dreadnoughts have to face Hivegaurds most of the times. A Paladin squad with Draigo and a Level 3 Librarian cost a lot of points!! A swarmlord with two tervigons (most likely troop choice) and a few hivegaurd (most likely elite choice) can take a lot of 24 inch shooting before burying the paladin squad with termagaunts. meanwhile the swarmlord and tervigons try to cast "enfeeble" to make those paladins as weak as possible and maybe give those termagaunts sum feel no pain.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Nids don't deal with Paladins at all really, they just have to deny them. The Tervigon idea posted above is the best one as they will waste their potential chewing through Gaunts.
]
And multiples Enfeebles is a terrible idea since it is a randomly rolled for spell and thus not really strategy.

Nids get 4-5 psykers easily, all can happily roll and benefit from the majority of rolls on the Biomancy table. It isn't really that random.

But I agree, the gaunt meatshield & tarpit is the best/easiest way to do with them.

Razerous wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Nids don't deal with Paladins at all really, they just have to deny them. The Tervigon idea posted above is the best one as they will waste their potential chewing through Gaunts.
]
And multiples Enfeebles is a terrible idea since it is a randomly rolled for spell and thus not really strategy.

Nids get 4-5 psykers easily, all can happily roll and benefit from the majority of rolls on the Biomancy table. It isn't really that random.

No, it really is random. Each one is still rolling 1-2 dice only and needs to roll that exact number; that's a 30.5% chance at best that they roll Enfeeble each. It is random, whatever way you want to look at it.

I've had ability to double and sometimes triple enfeeble, in my standard 2k list. 3 tervigon, 3 zoanthropes, 1 brood lord.

Right. Statistics aside - sometimes you get multiple enfeebles, sometimes you don't. In all, most biomancy powers help nids in some way. Tactics will change depending on which creature rolls which powers.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Each one is still rolling 1-2 dice only and needs to roll that exact number; that's a 30.5% chance at best that they roll Enfeeble each.

33.33% chance to be precise. If you really want enfeeble then you take the 1/6 chance and then a 1/5 chance.

With 6 psykers with 2 powers each (6 zoeys, or tyrant, tervi and some zoeys etc) you have a 66% chance of 2 or more enfeebles if you want to stack your odds of it. You have a 22% chance of 3 enfeebles. There is an 8% chance of non.


PS non of that is to say that I disagree with throwing in gants, cheap tarpit to keep them stuck whilst you wander over to the objectives. The only time that might not be so good is Kill points and you are throwing in smaller units rather than 1 big unit.

Iron Arm on any MC, then assault and kill Enfeeble if you can, but it's unneccessary for the Swarmy. Really, he should be destroying Paladins as you if you go all 4 on Biomancy he will probably get it.

why wouldnt the GK player just accept with a pally first turn . kill of the guards and on next turn when swarm challanges again , decline with a paladin and hit him with a draigo and paladins with hammers to kill him off ?

If there are no vehicles to shoot at, Hive Guards can ID them when they fail they're Armor Saves.

Makumba wrote:
why wouldnt the GK player just accept with a pally first turn . kill of the guards and on next turn when swarm challanges again , decline with a paladin and hit him with a draigo and paladins with hammers to kill him off ?

The Nid player picks who to send back.



Regardless, its a very bad situation for the Swarmlord. If he fails his Endurance psychic test its all over, assuming he actually got Endurance in the first place. Then the Paladins need only one wound to get through his 4++ and he instantly dies(Brotherhood banner=autopass psychic test)


Not to mention he can Deny the Witch your Enfeeble attempts on 5+(or 4+ if its not the Swarmlord casting) and you are at -1Ld for casting purposes(or -4 if there's a dreadnought around)

I've been reviewing your advice and think the enfeeble thing is just too risky because if I lose him I lose a lot of my hitting power so I'm thinking I just have to tarpit him with gaunts, thanks for all your help

 Grey Templar wrote:
Regardless, its a very bad situation for the Swarmlord. If he fails his Endurance psychic test its all over, assuming he actually got Endurance in the first place. Then the Paladins need only one wound to get through his 4++ and he instantly dies(Brotherhood banner=autopass psychic test)


Not to mention he can Deny the Witch your Enfeeble attempts on 5+(or 4+ if its not the Swarmlord casting) and you are at -1Ld for casting purposes(or -4 if there's a dreadnought around)

He will get Endurance in the first place because he will not charge without this power (or get within 18 inch of the paladins). he will be save for two close combat turns. If he's in a challenge with draigo he got an extra close combat turn with his I6. If he uses his "preferred enemy" upgrade on himself he probably got enough attacks to kill Draigo.

Also dont forget he's got "precision strike" against the palladins and could kill of daemonhammers before the strike.

Grey Templar wrote:

Makumba wrote:why wouldnt the GK player just accept with a pally first turn . kill of the guards and on next turn when swarm challanges again , decline with a paladin and hit him with a draigo and paladins with hammers to kill him off ?

The Nid player picks who to send back.

It is reasons like this i always attach a Prime to my tyrant guard. The Prime takes the chalanges so the Swarmlord can slice up the unit. Give the Prime BS/LW and he stands a good chance of killing the other model in the challange before it gets to strike back.

 Gloomfang wrote:
It is reasons like this i always attach a Prime to my tyrant guard. The Prime takes the chalanges so the Swarmlord can slice up the unit. Give the Prime BS/LW and he stands a good chance of killing the other model in the challange before it gets to strike back.

Except, you know, that the Swarmlord is going to be hitting at I1, and will probably get instagibbed before he can even attack anyway. Put a stave in against the Prime, and it's not like the Prime has any reliable chance of coming out alive either.

I ment more in general why I have a Prime. Against Paladins i would just send in waves of spawned termigaunt to tie them up.