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Fire discipline. Everyone needs to learn fire discipline. Wonder how many will be confirmed as illegal kills by the police. How many will be charged with negligent homicide.

 MrMerlin wrote:
but still, it appears to me that you get much more random firearm violence in the US than we get over here.... or firearm violence in general. just look at the incidents of the last few weeks.... sheesh!

Oh we do have more firearm violence, but there is quite a difference between saying something rarely happens and something never happens.

I'm sure the low levels of firearm violence in Europe is because everyone is armed and guns are plentiful and unregulated.

 Ahtman wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
This also isn't a shooting spree, just a straight murder followed by proof cops should carry revolvers and learn how to shoot instead of spraying and praying.

So do we know that is what happened now? As it was presented that scenario was just to illustrate odd possibilities.

More or less we do yes.
You are welcome to bring something else to the table; this is the same day after all and the media as a whole can be less than reliable.

It seems that:
1. Approximately one year ago Jeffery Johnson was laid off from Hazan Imports.
2. Johnson blamed VP of sales Steven Ercolinco
3. This morning he waited for Ercolinco near his work with his .45 caliber pistol. Legally purchased in Sarasota, FL in 1991; police report it held 7 rounds.
4. When Ercolinco walked near Johnson approached him and shot him in the head. He stood over the body and fired 4 more times.
5. A construction worker who saw the incident notified nearby police
6. Two NYPD officers confronted Johnson who pulled his gun from his briefcase and pointed at the officers.
7. The officers fired 14-16 rounds (I have seen both numbers I don't pledge to either being right) killing Johnson.
8. Johnson's gun was recovered with one round in the chamber and one round in the magazine. In other words he never fired at the cops or anyone but his intended victim.
9. NYPD initially claimed Johnson fired randomly into the crowd and bystanders were "caught in the crossfire"
10. Investigators took over the scene (it was earlier reported the FBI would investigate)and preliminarily determined all the bystanders were wounded by the NYPD officers.

That's basically what happened as reported now. There's a security camera tape that will be released at some point. The commisioner says it will show the cops had no choice.
And here's where my opinion starts, no choice to what? Fire as quickly and Inaccurately as possible? Endagering the public at large with reckless gunfire? The unfortunate truth as it appears now, is tha these cops did the right thing, they stopped the bad guy. They just did the right thing in the wrong way. These guys will likely face action of some sort, professionally or criminally. At least criminally they have qualified immunity unless they acted negligently (they might have). The department ABSOLUTELY will face civil cases and have to pay off these people.

 Jihadin wrote:
Fire discipline. Everyone needs to learn fire discipline. Wonder how many will be confirmed as illegal kills by the police. How many will be charged with negligent homicide.

Totally agreed, and not a single cop. The Blue Wall of Silence comes down, and...




What's really hilarious is the people shot in Chicago are largely refusing to cooperate with police. I love Chi Town.

"New York City, as you know, is the safest big city in the country, and we are on pace to have a record low number of murders this year,” Mayor Michael Bloomberg said. “But we are not immune to the national problem of gun violence,” he said about the shooting, which comes in the wake of mass shootings inside a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin. "

http://www.houmatoday.com/article/20120824/WIRE/120829765/1026/news01?p=2&tc=pg

For example: during 2006, only 156 Officers out of the force of some 37,000, were involved in a firearm-discharge incident. And fewer than half of those incidents involved an Officer shooting at a human being. Most involved Officers shooting at dogs.

Also, according to the Department of Justice (DOJ): "of the 43.5 million persons who had contact with Police in 2005, an estimated 1.6% had force used or threatened against them, a rate that was nearly the same as in 2002 (1.5%)."

The rarity of incidents might be a reason for not doing much if anything about them administratively. However, for the participants, they are deadly serious and personal. And if one goes badly, it can become a public relations nightmare for an Agency.

Per the report, firearms training has increased dramatically over the past 100 tears, as has the quality of weapons carried. But on average, there appears to have been very little improvement in the ability of Officers to hit their targets during the rare firearms incident.

The average hit rate for NYPD Officers involved in a gunfight between 1998 and 2006 was 18 percent. For every five shots, four bullets missed the intended target and went somewhere else. And that hit rate is consistent with the "normal" hit rate in armed encounters which hasn't changed much for years and years.

The average hit rate for Officers who shot at subjects who did not return fire, was 30 percent. Officers hit their targets 37 percent of the time at distances of seven yards or less. And hit rates fell off sharply to 23 percent at longer ranges.

Also, Officers in gunfights fired 7.6 rounds on average, compared with an average of 3.5 rounds for Officers who fired against subjects who did not return fire. And most Officers have firearms with a capacity of well over 7 rounds, plus extra magazines.

http://www.pointshooting.com/1arand.htm

HmmHmmm. Especially when the cops contributed to the gun violence with poor & excessive shooting.

They miss 4 out of 5? WTF do they do, spray and pray?

Hey, Jihadin, what's the US military average? Last I heard you guys averaged 3 out of 5 unless firing for suppression?

People are big fething targets unless you're trying to be fancy.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
They miss 4 out of 5? WTF do they do, spray and pray?

Hey, Jihadin, what's the US military average? Last I heard you guys averaged 3 out of 5 unless firing for suppression?

People are big fething targets unless you're trying to be fancy.

It's easy to cast aspersion when your not the one being shot at.

Firearm training is expensive, and it's very unlikely that most cities will shell out the cash necessary to help ensure the type of training that will give all officers a cool calm demenear of a Spec Ops personnel involved in a fire fight.

Firearm training is expensive, and it's very unlikely that most cities will shell out the cash necessary to help ensure the type of training that will give all officers a cool calm demenear of a Spec Ops personnel involved in a fire fight.

Thats true but fire discpline is still a individual responsibility. Situational awareness is always in play. Rounds do not stop just at the target. Baron you have to bear in mind there's a major difference between law enforcement and those like me. We're "use" to being taken under fire. We also keep an eye on individuals who are on their first deployment and "battle buddy" them up with someone with experience to avoid a situation like this amongst others.

djones520 wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
They miss 4 out of 5? WTF do they do, spray and pray?

Hey, Jihadin, what's the US military average? Last I heard you guys averaged 3 out of 5 unless firing for suppression?

People are big fething targets unless you're trying to be fancy.

It's easy to cast aspersion when your not the one being shot at.

Firearm training is expensive, and it's very unlikely that most cities will shell out the cash necessary to help ensure the type of training that will give all officers a cool calm demenear of a Spec Ops personnel involved in a fire fight.

Cops are responsible for where those extra rounds went.

Major FAIL in situational awareness and fire discipline

Usually I vouch for officers with bad aim because as has been mentioned in tense situations you have no experience in you tend to shoot worse. but they shouldn't have fired their weapons in a place where the bullet can hit anyone important.

What kind of training do new york cops get?

someone wrote:It's easy to cast aspersion when your not the one being shot at.

Technically, the cops weren't the ones being shot at either. yes?

The NYPD has always been prone to this sort of overreaction, I see no reason to wave away their historical lack of fire control.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
They miss 4 out of 5? WTF do they do, spray and pray?

Hey, Jihadin, what's the US military average? Last I heard you guys averaged 3 out of 5 unless firing for suppression?

People are big fething targets unless you're trying to be fancy.

How much shooting have you done, out of curiosity?

The adrenaline dump from someone standing a few yards away pointing a gun at you is going to mess with anybody's aim, especially if it's the first time it's happened in your life.

I'm firmly in the "the cops are responsible for their shot placement," camp, but it's not like they'd have to willfully be attempting to be reckless to end up with results like this. If you and I stood fifteen yards apart, and on a given signal, tried to shoot each other to death, I guarantee it'd require more than a couple shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
Technically, the cops weren't the ones being shot at either. yes?

No, they weren't being shot at. But the guy did have a gun, and, so they say, pointed it at them. I wouldn't wait to be shot at before lighting him up, either.

Quote doesn't belong to me Ouze.

The police are fething useless.

They should send them on an incredibly arduous and gruelling 32 week selection process before they are allowed to wear the coveted coppers helmet.

Sreiously though, if we beasted the cops instead of making their nancy boy training a piece of piss, maybe we wouldnt get so many trigger happy woofters who are scared of their own shadows and thus shoot like wildmen as soon as their pulses start racing a little.

Also bear in mind it only takes a flight of stairs to get a cops heart racing considering half of them are obese!

Why don't they have twice yearly fitness tests? In the military you have to pass a BFT three times a year and an advanced combat fitness test every 12 months or you are out on your ass.. why does a cop only have to pass basic and then they can get as fat as they like!?

 mattyrm wrote:
The police are fething useless.

They should send them on an incredibly arduous and gruelling 32 week selection process before they are allowed to wear the coveted coppers helmet.

Sreiously though, if we beasted the cops instead of making their nancy boy training a piece of piss, maybe we wouldnt get so many trigger happy woofters who are scared of their own shadows and thus shoot like wildmen as soon as their pulses start racing a little.

Also bear in mind it only takes a flight of stairs to get a cops heart racing considering half of them are obese!

Why don't they have twice yearly fitness tests? In the military you have to pass a BFT three times a year and an advanced combat fitness test every 12 months or you are out on your ass.. why does a cop only have to pass basic and then they can get as fat as they like!?

Because we need more cops than soldiers, frankly.

There are certainly great cops, just as there are certainly bad cops. I do think more emphasis should be placed on firearms training, though. You hear all the time from LEOs who are actual enthusiasts that most of their coworkers prefer to simply qualify and then not deal with the range...until they have to qualify again. And, to be fair, the majority never need to draw their sidearm during their careers, anyway.

What I find curious about this tragic incident is that there were nine bystanders still around to get injured by the time the cops showed up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CNN has video of the incident up. Here.

AustonT wrote:Quote doesn't belong to me Ouze.

Yeah, sorry, not sure what happened there. I've edited it to remove whomever said it because I'm not 100% sure where the quote broke.

 Seaward wrote:
No, they weren't being shot at. But the guy did have a gun, and, so they say, pointed it at them. I wouldn't wait to be shot at before lighting him up, either.

 mattyrm wrote:


Also bear in mind it only takes a flight of stairs to get a cops heart racing considering half of them are obese!

Seeing as my then 14 years old little sister beat the entire Royal 22nd by little under one minute at their swimming competition, I'd say not all soldiers are exactly top shape either.

Feth half of them couldn't swim 500 meters. We used to get quite a laugh when they came at the lake to train.

 Ouze wrote:
Well, to clarify, I don't really have a problem with them lighting him up per se, but when you fire 14 times and hit what, 10 peopleish, I don't think we should be excusing some sloppy-ass police shooting, which again, is historically on par for the NYPD.

Take a look at the video. I'm torn on it; on the one hand, I wonder why in the name of feth they're approaching him literally in the middle of a crowd of people, and on the other, I'm aware that the dude has a gun and just shot somebody five times, so they probably don't have a lot of leeway about promptly apprehending him.

According to the police commissioner, none of the bystanders actually got shot, but were hit with fragments. It's a miracle nobody else is dead, looking at that tape.

 Seaward wrote:


The adrenaline dump from someone standing a few yards away pointing a gun at you is going to mess with anybody's aim, especially if it's the first time it's happened in your life.

This is the main reason I find ridiculous the claim that if the public are allowed to carry firearms then they would be able to defend themselves, thus shooting sprees would be somehow prevented. Even the police ended up hurting bystanders in such a situation, and they're supposed to know how to deal with it.

From my experience with shooting a handgun, to pop 14-16 rounds off like the cops allegedly did in several seconds, those rounds are going scatter all over the place. Skilled pistol shooters who drill out the X ring consistently practice with thousands of rounds a month year round.

The NYC cops obviously need more training since they serve in a target rich urban environment. With practice those cops could have hit the guy with 1-2 well placed shots in the same amount of time they popped off their entire magazines.

Yeah, put a bunch of emotionally immature people in a high stress environment, crazy how that happens.

Since when was University high stress? They sit around on their backsides all day drinking beer and watching rubbish TV shows. When they're not doing that, they're stinking up my local GW or hanging around bars/clubs surrounded by women! They probably attend one lecture a week. And they want more money for doing that! Bloody students!

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Seaward wrote:


The adrenaline dump from someone standing a few yards away pointing a gun at you is going to mess with anybody's aim, especially if it's the first time it's happened in your life.

This is the main reason I find ridiculous the claim that if the public are allowed to carry firearms then they would be able to defend themselves, thus shooting sprees would be somehow prevented. Even the police ended up hurting bystanders in such a situation, and they're supposed to know how to deal with it.

Given the environment they engaged him in, I think it would've required a lot of luck to avoid hurting anybody else. The dude was literally a couple feet away from about six different oblivious bystanders when the shooting started. If initial reports are to be believed, all the injuries occurred not due to people getting directly shot by the cops, but getting hit with debris from the bullets shattering on pavement and the flower pot directly behind the suspect.

The video's up, guys. I posted it. Watch it. It's not as "rargh rampaging NYPD!!!11oneoneeleventy!" as everyone's making it out to be.

And this is why the US constitution sucks. It allows-no, it gives people a RIGHT to carry guns around. Totally daft. Obama, fix this now.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Yeah, put a bunch of emotionally immature people in a high stress environment, crazy how that happens.

Since when was University high stress? They sit around on their backsides all day drinking beer and watching rubbish TV shows. When they're not doing that, they're stinking up my local GW or hanging around bars/clubs surrounded by women! They probably attend one lecture a week. And they want more money for doing that! Bloody students!

I thought we were talking about US schools?

 Squigsquasher wrote:
And this is why the US constitution sucks. It allows-no, it gives people a RIGHT to carry guns around. Totally daft. Obama, fix this now.

Pass. Or veto. Whichever comes first.

 Seaward wrote:

How much shooting have you done, out of curiosity?

The adrenaline dump from someone standing a few yards away pointing a gun at you is going to mess with anybody's aim, especially if it's the first time it's happened in your life.

hand held Smooth bore:
matchlocks, flintlocks (I prefer the 1813 Sutton of Pittsburgh, it's a great improvement over the Charleville it's based on), wheel-locks, percussion, and modern, as well as shotguns from 410 up to 9 gauge (yes, 9 gauge and it's not something I recommend firing more then once in a while).

Pistols:
Flintlock .45 up through the .69 Tower Light Dragoon, modern .22 through .50 (Remington Rand made 1911A1 preferred)

HMG:
1862 Gatling (repro), Maxim 1910, Quad .50s,

LMG:
7.62 coax

Artillery and Tank Guns:
12 Pound Napoleon, 24lber British Naval cannon, KwK 42 L70, F3 in 90 and 105mm.

Rifles:
Lots. Like the HK MP5

SMG:
M1928, PpSH 41


So... Yes, I've done a lot of shooting, some of it while gak blew up around me.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

-snip-

Great. Which of those were you shooting against a live human target that drew first with every appearance of intent to kill you in the middle of a crowded city center?

 Seaward wrote:

Great. Which of those were you shooting against a live human target that drew first with every appearance of intent to kill you in the middle of a crowded city center?

I've shot more then a few of them against live human targets who had guns out and intended to kill me, though granted, not surrounded by civvies in a crowded street. (was why I asked Jihadin about the US army's rates) My own rate is 2 out of 3, on average. Particularly at the range they engaged him, which my rate is 100% hits. (Anything less then ten yards is really fething easy)

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

Great. Which of those were you shooting against a live human target that drew first with every appearance of intent to kill you in the middle of a crowded city center?

I've shot more then a few of them against live human targets who had guns out and intended to kill me, though granted, not surrounded by civvies in a crowded street. (was why I asked Jihadin about the US army's rates) My own rate is 2 out of 3, on average. Particularly at the range they engaged him, which my rate is 100% hits. (Anything less then ten yards is really fething easy)

I'm not so sure I buy that.

Regardless, it doesn't matter. Everyone on the internet can claim all day long they'd have dropped the guy with one shot while repaving the roads and balancing their checkbooks, all that matters is if the officers responded correctly.

 Jihadin wrote:
Fire discipline. Everyone needs to learn fire discipline. Wonder how many will be confirmed as illegal kills by the police. How many will be charged with negligent homicide.

I've got an easier solution, give the cops one bullet each. They'll be much more careful with their shooting.