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Ok, Trashed some orks today, but they are not drop pods, so actually... I'll keep it on topic.

Playing some Flesh tearers tomorrow, and I know its a 3 drop pod list.
I'm going to roll with mass immortals(proxying warriors as immortals), and maybe one of the counter attack ideas that came to light.

This will actually be my first time against flesh tearers, so no idea what to expect. I'll post the list (when I wake up).

Lets see if we can pull a win this time hahaha!

Step 3: Stop using destroyers. No, they're not the worst unit in the game. Yes, they're very good at killing marines. But that doesn't mean that they are cost effective. The points cost and risk-to-reward ratio is WAY too high.

Step 4: Stop using Szeras.

Step 5: Res Orbs are rarely worth it. I'm not going to go into a full analysis of why, but for 90% of situations it's almost always better to just buy more troops with the points.

Madman had some good advice but I don't particularly agree with these 3 statements.

Destroyers are one of the most cost effective ways for dealing with the most prolific troop profile in the game, MeQ. They are also incredibly mobile and great at staying on the peripheries on the flanks and carving away at the enemy. If you keep them on a flank, it's pretty unlikely they will get dropped in one round of shooting, and as long as they are getting there RP rolls they are quite cost effective. T5 3+/5+ cover and RP is just as survivable as the Term T4 2+/5++ against most weapons in the game. So they have terms resiliency with Preferred Enemy buffed Dark Reaper guns and Jump Packs. Seriously, whats not to love about them? Now, I wouldn't build an entire army around them, but one unit harassing the flanks can be quite effective.

Szeras has two uses, in conjunction with Anraykar Immortals in a Night Scythe or a blob of 20 Warriors with a Phaeron. In both of those situations he's reasonably effective (because he's providing a competent CC scoring unit both defensive grenades and, regardless of what buff they get (particularly the Strength buff, which is somewhat useless in most other Warrior/Immortal configurations), it will help them).

And Res Orbs are always worth it on a unit of 200+ point cost. Now, I suppose if you play strictly MSU, then that may be a "rarely," but any large unit that you are attaching an IC to absolutely should have a res orb in it.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Madman had some good advice but I don't particularly agree with these 3 statements.

Destroyers are one of the most cost effective ways for dealing with the most prolific troop profile in the game, MeQ. They are also incredibly mobile and great at staying on the peripheries on the flanks and carving away at the enemy. If you keep them on a flank, it's pretty unlikely they will get dropped in one round of shooting, and as long as they are getting there RP rolls they are quite cost effective. T5 3+/5+ cover and RP is just as survivable as the Term T4 2+/5++ against most weapons in the game. So they have terms resiliency with Preferred Enemy buffed Dark Reaper guns and Jump Packs. Seriously, whats not to love about them? Now, I wouldn't build an entire army around them, but one unit harassing the flanks can be quite effective.

Szeras has two uses, in conjunction with Anraykar Immortals in a Night Scythe or a blob of 20 Warriors with a Phaeron. In both of those situations he's reasonably effective (because he's providing a competent CC scoring unit both defensive grenades and, regardless of what buff they get (particularly the Strength buff, which is somewhat useless in most other Warrior/Immortal configurations), it will help them).

And Res Orbs are always worth it on a unit of 200+ point cost. Now, I suppose if you play strictly MSU, then that may be a "rarely," but any large unit that you are attaching an IC to absolutely should have a res orb in it.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

re: Destroyers

They do have some positive spots to them, as you've highlighted. My issue with them is that they are as expensive as terminators, they have to take terrain tests every time they jump into cover (which is less of an issue in 6th as it used to be, but still sucks when you lose a guy to a failed terrain test/armor roll), and they aren't fast enough to get behind enemy lines at the juicy bits (at least at the points level I play at....the flanks are always covered....at 1500 they may be more useful with less units on the board).

And in a TAC environment, any army that doesn't have a 3+ armor save makes them a waste.

But mostly its the terminator cost that kills them for me. I'd rather have wraiths (cheaper!).

You have some valid points though. I may reconsider using them for a couple games.

re: Szeras

Personally, I don't consider a Warrior blob, even with an Overlord, a "CC" unit. Anrakyr's buff or not, they don't do it for me, so I consider Szeras a giant waste of points. YMMV.

re: Res Orbs

The other place a Res Orb would be useful is a deathstar unit. Problem with a large blob of Warriors is you can't put them in a Ghost Ark, you can't put them in a Night Scythe....you give up AV13 armor, skimmer/flyer transport speeds, and Night Scythe deployment/armament for a couple extra warriors with a +1 to Protocols? Not worth it, imho. I don't see the appeal of large foot blobs, but to each their own.

Destroyers : I like them. They are a pretty killy unit, and the buff to preferred enemy has made them even more killy. I am currently run a squad with Heavy Gauss, and I am finding that they work rather well.

Szeras - No, just no. He's a harbinger of destruction that's about 45 points more than normal, and he comes with the gaze of flame...which is a pretty useless piece of gear, considering how your average necron unit will die in CC anyway.
His augmentation ability would be nice...if it didn't have a chance of buffing your warriors/immortals to S5, which is absolutely useless. S5 is only good in CC, which is the last place where you want your troops to be.

Res Orb - I hardly use them, really. However, they are a must for lychguard and praetorian squads imo, who need that extra bit of staying power.

In my opinion, the two best named HQ's available (I've play tested them all EXCEPT the Orikan diviner, but I will at some point).

Vanguard obyron, BUT you have to know how to use him.
For example, In the ork match last night I GWM him and his unit (5 immortals and a cryptek) behind the enemies main line behind a load of boys and a few other things (warp cannon).
*The cryptek is there to cover obyrons main weakness, no INV save, if obyron drops, on the RP I can use the chronomentron to re-roll the RP, not as good as an INV but better than nothing, or if I wanted I could re-roll an armour save
Now I'd done a risk assmement before hand, and I knew this gave th enemy 2 choices, either ignore him there, or split of some of his force to deal with him, after all h was my warlord and some juicy VP would be nice (We play in a league)

He thought, pfft, necrons I'll assault, thanks to cleaving counterblow Obyron had 9, strength 7 attacks. HE lost the combat, failed leadership, and got run down.

Now I'm aware, for most people, on paper, Obyron is a bad choice, and I think for most people its a case of treating him as a trump card, last turn, teleport to an objective with a scoring unit...

Immotek the storm lord:
Now, yes... 225 points is a horrendous amount to pay, plus you need chronometron tek for re-rolling night.
Yes night has been nerfed a little, but in such a way where it effects only 2 weapons for necrons that are over 36'.
He is hard to put down, he just refuses to die, he makes a great tarpit and meatshield.
His staff of the destroyer is great, walk up to tough units, bam. (its one shot only)
4+ Seize the initive can offer a great tactical advantage.
Lord of the storm... roll D6 for every unit on the opponents side (not in combat) and on a 6, D6 S8 AP5 hits, every turn its night, I've dropped nice things with this.

The blood swarm nano scarabs? pointless, flayed ones are actually the necrons worst unit.
You have to treat immotek as a support specialist, dealing damage per turn, keeping all the massive range things at bay (battle cannons etc ) while possibly chipping away at the army each turn, he can offer a good tarpit to any units getting close, and worst case can obliterate mot things with his one shot staff (works simular to the death ray).

The most important thing is to NOT sit him at the back, he is just wasting his points that way, get him running errands.


I imagine everyone here will probably massively disagree with me, since immotek is not very popular.

I am liking Imotekh at the moment. Good for first blood and a target for kill the warlord that is difficult to kill.

Obyron is fun, but I don't know, in your example, Kikojui, you'd need to bring another overlord in order to get the cryptek, and the sweeping advance is only possible because of orks' low initiative... and that he didn't get fearless from mobs rule. Obviously, against most marines armies, he'd still be ok-ish, instead of sweeping advance, you can just teleport away with his special mantle. There is also the risk of the unit losing combat leading to him getting swept instead, at I2, I think most armies would struggle to lose sweeping advance.

Also you forgot to mention how he's almost invincible in combat, only DE has high I AP2 CC weapons, everyone else with AP2 CC weapons has to strike after, or at the same time, as him.

I'm not saying he's absolutely terrible, but just ... probably not the best. He's kinda like his bf, nemesor(they're in that kinda relationship, right?), in the right setup, against the right opponent, his counter/adaptive tactics will save the day, but against the wrong army, his counter tactics wouldn't be as useful. So I wouldn't say an HQ that is situational good at something the best, I'd consider a HQ the bestestest when he can be good at any time.

As for using him to teleport a scoring unit to objective, well, wouldn't it be cheaper to run despairtek with VoD instead?

MadmanMSU wrote:

Response to last bit:
I'm not a fan of list copying, I'd rather do the experimenting, analysis and refining of my own, its most of the fun.

Agreing on that part... It's always fun trying new stuff!

Baronyu wrote:
Obyron is fun, but I don't know, in your example, Kikojui, you'd need to bring another overlord in order to get the cryptek, and the sweeping advance is only possible because of orks' low initiative... and that he didn't get fearless from mobs rule. Obviously, against most marines armies, he'd still be ok-ish, instead of sweeping advance, you can just teleport away with his special mantle. There is also the risk of the unit losing combat leading to him getting swept instead, at I2, I think most armies would struggle to lose sweeping advance.

Also you forgot to mention how he's almost invincible in combat, only DE has high I AP2 CC weapons, everyone else with AP2 CC weapons has to strike after, or at the same time, as him.

I'm not saying he's absolutely terrible, but just ... probably not the best. He's kinda like his bf, nemesor(they're in that kinda relationship, right?), in the right setup, against the right opponent, his counter/adaptive tactics will save the day, but against the wrong army, his counter tactics wouldn't be as useful. So I wouldn't say an HQ that is situational good at something the best, I'd consider a HQ the bestestest when he can be good at any time.

As for using him to teleport a scoring unit to objective, well, wouldn't it be cheaper to run despairtek with VoD instead?

Yeah correct on all the points, I was using the orks as an example, but I've thought up a good way to describe what I meant.

Obyron is a very flexible unit, he covers two of necrons big weaknesses, CC and maneuverability.

Example: To the average person, if you pass them a cleaver they will think its for hacking meat. Pass it to a decent chinese chef, its a vegetable peeler, a fish filleter and basically the only knife tool they need.
Basically, obyron is flexible and massively adaptable, but in the hands of a player who cannot see how adaptable he is or adapt mid game, he will be a CC unit that is point heavy.
As or a veil tek, of course you could take one, but why not take one as well as obyron.

And yes if you run him, ideally you also want a Overlord priced a little higher (so that obyron is not the warlord, you don't want risky tactics attached to a Victory point).

With the change to power weapons and this whole "unusual power/force weapon" business, obyron did indeed become a much more viable CC option for necrons, since he doesn't have an invul but does have the 2+ save (which didn't do crap for him in 5th, ultimately).

Still though, I'd much rather take zahndrekh simply because he compliments more of the army and makes your forces more adaptable to a multitude of situations. Need a tank taken out? Give some gauss wielders Tank Hunter. About to get charged and you know it? Give your guys counter attack or hit and run. Going to charge? Hit 'em up with furious charge.

Imotekh is also definitely nice but once that lightning wears off, his glamor has too.

Personally, I don't consider a Warrior blob, even with an Overlord, a "CC" unit. Anrakyr's buff or not, they don't do it for me, so I consider Szeras a giant waste of points. YMMV.

Szeras - No, just no. He's a harbinger of destruction that's about 45 points more than normal, and he comes with the gaze of flame...which is a pretty useless piece of gear, considering how your average necron unit will die in CC anyway.
His augmentation ability would be nice...if it didn't have a chance of buffing your warriors/immortals to S5, which is absolutely useless. S5 is only good in CC, which is the last place where you want your troops to be.

Once you give them 5 strength and defensive grenades and either Phaeron (for Warriors) or Phyrrian (for Immortals), and attach a suitable court member, they are a CC unit. At least, relative to 95% of the troops CC units in the game. They could easily handle ASM, Grey Hunters, Gaunts, Wyches, etc. Now, it's also a pricey unit, no doubt, but Necrons really need an aggressive, can get dirty in your enemies deployment zone, scoring option. Either one of these stacks up pretty well in this regard.

A Destrotek with Gaze is 45 points. Szeras has +1 Wound, +1 Save, and + 3 Attacks, and the augment ability. If you give his statline buffs a cost of say, 15 points, then your paying 40 points for the augment, or 4/Immortal (10) 2/Warrior(20). Thats...about right. Maybe a little on the expensive side for the Immortals, but when you combine it with Anraykr and Tesla you start rounding out a pretty solid, flexible unit. 10xS5 Tesla Shots and then 20xS6 attacks on the charge (minus casualties)? That puts you into double T against T3 territory, and can reasonably damage TMC territory. Throw in some Warscythe love and I'm not sure upon what metric you can objectionably say this unit isn't quite respectable in CC.

And in a TAC environment, any army that doesn't have a 3+ armor save makes them a waste. Re: Destroyers

I don't know if I would call it a "waste." 200 points worth of Destroyers throw out 7.56 Wounds (before saves) against guard versus 8.33 for 10 Tesla Immortals. Now, add to this fact that the Destroyers can use their superior mobility to get past cover, and are still Gauss weapons for that added anti-vehicle flexibility, and they are basically on par with each other (10 Gauss Immortals only cause about 5.56 wounds). Now, granted, the Immortals score, so I guess in some sense you could lament in this situation that you didn't have more scoring Immortals, but the point is that still deliver the good here. 2 Tesla Destructors, also a similar cost, also do 8.33 Wounds, so again, same ballpark, but AP - so they are always gonna get there save. Anyway, just trying to illustrate that in the rare case that you aren't facing any 3+, the Destroyers are still going to pull their weight. Really, the fact is they more then pull their weight when you are facing a 3+.

That being said, I personally like the 3xHeavy2xDestroyer combo best. It really just melts anything it looks at, Term, MeQ, Mech, etc.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I don't know if I would call it a "waste." 200 points worth of Destroyers throw out 7.56 Wounds (before saves) against guard versus 8.33 for 10 Tesla Immortals. Now, add to this fact that the Destroyers can use their superior mobility to get past cover, and are still Gauss weapons for that added anti-vehicle flexibility, and they are basically on par with each other (10 Gauss Immortals only cause about 5.56 wounds). Now, granted, the Immortals score, so I guess in some sense you could lament in this situation that you didn't have more scoring Immortals, but the point is that still deliver the good here. 2 Tesla Destructors, also a similar cost, also do 8.33 Wounds, so again, same ballpark, but AP - so they are always gonna get there save. Anyway, just trying to illustrate that in the rare case that you aren't facing any 3+, the Destroyers are still going to pull their weight. Really, the fact is they more then pull their weight when you are facing a 3+.

That being said, I personally like the 3xHeavy2xDestroyer combo best. It really just melts anything it looks at, Term, MeQ, Mech, etc.

re: Destroyers vs. Immortals

Assumption: both units can use their mobility to get into optimal range. Destroyers have jump packs, Immortals have Night Scythes.

In a 200 point unit, 5 Destroyers average 7.56 wounds vs GEQ and 6.04 wounds versus MEQ.

5 Destroyers * 2 shots each = 10 shots * (4/6 + (4/6 * 1/6)) = 7.77 hits
GEQ: 7.77 * (5/6 + (5/6 * 1/6)) = 7.56 wounds
MEQ: 7.77 * (4/6 + (4/6 * 1/6)) = 6.04 wounds

In a 200 point unit, 11 Immortals (rapid fire gauss) average wounds vs GEQ and 6.04 wounds versus MEQ.

11 Immortals * 2 shots each = 22 shots * (4/6) = 14.66 hits
GEQ: 14.66 * (5/6) = 12.22 wounds
MEQ: 14.66 * (4/6) = 9.77 wounds

Against 2+ armor: Immortals win because they do more wounds.
Against 3+ armor: Destroyers win because they're AP 3.
Against 4+ armor: Immortals win because they're AP4 and they do more wounds.
Against 5+ armor: Immortals win because they're AP4 and they do more wounds.
Against 6+ armor: Immortals win because they're AP4 and they do more wounds.

And Immortals are scoring. And they bring Night Scythes to the table. And they aren't 40 points a piece, so losing one doesn't hurt as much.

So...in a TAC environment, I would (and do) take Immortals every time.

Addendum: This isn't to say that Destroyers don't have their place, I just want to be very clear....Destroyers have a very specific purpose. Taking out 3+ armor. That's it. Given the above, I think my previous statement still stands. If you face an army without any 3+ armor saves, they're a big waste of points.

Except the majority of armies out there are MEQ based.
Of course, YMMV.

And Destroyers can also kill vehicles and 2+ armor. That's what the heavy gauss cannons are for.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except the majority of armies out there are MEQ based.
Of course, YMMV.

This is true. But now we're not talking about a TAC environment, are we? In that case, you should be comparing Destroyers to other units that are designed for taking out 3+ armor. Not immortals. You want to compare Destroyers to Doom Scythes? Pretty sure the Doom Scythe will win, every time.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And Destroyers can also kill vehicles and 2+ armor. That's what the heavy gauss cannons are for.

Again, Heavy Gauss Destroyers are not in the same category as regular Destroyers. You would have to compare Heavy Gauss to other Necron options for taking out vehicles and 2+ armor. Oh look, Doom Scythes!

The death ray can only hit targets in a straight line. The doom scythe also AV11, meaning that a lucky autocannon hit can put it down.

Destroyers can not be put down by a lucky autocannon hit, and their don't have the same restrictions as the death ray.

Oh, and unlike the Doom Scythe, you can have the destroyers on the table on turn 1, destroyers are denial units and they can take objectives in the scouring. Destroyers also do not have their movement limited.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The death ray can only hit targets in a straight line.

Yep. And it's only an average of 10 inches long. Hope I don't hit a crap ton of other things at the same time with it...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Destroyers can not be put down by a lucky autocannon hit

Um....Yes they can?

You've had games where your 5 man destroyer squad was killed by 1 autocannon hit? I think you've been playing it wrong

And in 6th, its important to have board presence. Destroyers can give you that board presence, and they can deny objectives.

You won't actually that many things with the Death Scythe...unless your opponent somehow decided to clump all his vehicles and termies in one spot.
I have never played a game where I thought "huh, you know, that's a good cluster of targets there for the death scythe."
In fact, once your opponent find out what the death scythe could do, they will just spread out their forces to minimize the damage.

Now, the Doom Scythe is good at killing squadrons, single AV10-11 vehicles (thanks to the destructor) and parking lots. Very good, in fact.
Against heavier vehicles and monsterous creatures, I'd rather use the destroyers thanks to the sheer amount of a High Strength low AP fire they can churn out.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You've had games where your 5 man destroyer squad was killed by 1 autocannon hit? I think you've been playing it wrong

No, but I've had plenty of games where one Doom Scythe has taken out 5 destroyers.

MadmanMSU wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You've had games where your 5 man destroyer squad was killed by 1 autocannon hit? I think you've been playing it wrong

No, but I've had plenty of games where one Doom Scythe has taken out 5 destroyers.

I think that's more of a case of your opponent placing his destroyers in a straight line and out of cover, rather than the doom scythe being superior.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And in 6th, its important to have board presence. Destroyers can give you that board presence, and they can deny objectives.

You won't actually that many things with the Death Scythe...unless your opponent somehow decided to clump all his vehicles and termies in one spot.
I have never played a game where I thought "huh, you know, that's a good cluster of targets there for the death scythe."

Now, the Doom Scythe is good at killing squadrons, single AV10-11 vehicles (thanks to the destructor) and parking lots. Very good, in fact.
Against heavier vehicles and monsterous creatures, I'd rather use the destroyers thanks to the sheer amount of a High Strength low AP fire they can churn out.

But I have. Maybe I'm just better at positioning than you, I don't know, but I've had plenty of games where the Doom Scythe has been clutch. Admittedly, it's a tough thing to learn. Flyers are new to this edition, and they aren't a simple "point and shoot" unit. But with a bit of strategery, they excel. Having a S10 AP1 line that auto-hits anything underneath it is absolutely devastating. AND they have a tesla destructor? AND skyfire? AND they can move 36" with another 12"-24" shooting range for board presence, making almost everywhere on the board a potential target?

I'll take two.

MadmanMSU wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And in 6th, its important to have board presence. Destroyers can give you that board presence, and they can deny objectives.

You won't actually that many things with the Death Scythe...unless your opponent somehow decided to clump all his vehicles and termies in one spot.
I have never played a game where I thought "huh, you know, that's a good cluster of targets there for the death scythe."

Now, the Doom Scythe is good at killing squadrons, single AV10-11 vehicles (thanks to the destructor) and parking lots. Very good, in fact.
Against heavier vehicles and monsterous creatures, I'd rather use the destroyers thanks to the sheer amount of a High Strength low AP fire they can churn out.

But I have. Maybe I'm just better at positioning than you, I don't know, but I've had plenty of games where the Doom Scythe has been clutch. Admittedly, it's a tough thing to learn. Flyers are new to this edition, and they aren't a simple "point and shoot" unit. But with a bit of strategery, they excel. Having a S10 AP1 line that auto-hits anything underneath it is absolutely devastating. AND they have a tesla destructor? AND skyfire? AND they can move 36" with another 12"-24" shooting range for board presence, making almost everywhere on the board a potential target?

I'll take two.

Well, the skyfire only works on the tesla destructor. They errated the Death Ray so it doesn't work on flyers. Still, about 1-12 S7 hits can usually rip of flyers. Flying MC...not so quite, unless he fails grounding, or if it has a terrible save.
I guess I just never felt a need to have a doom scythe in my army. I do use night scythes though, and I can safely say that they are probably the best transport (and deathmark delivery system) in the game.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, the skyfire only works on the tesla destructor. They errated the Death Ray so it doesn't work on flyers.I guess I just never felt a need to have a doom scythe in my army. I do use night scythes though, and I can safely say that they are probably the best transport (and deathmark delivery system) in the game.

In my local meta, we've never allowed the line to hit flyers, even before the ruling. That said, the Tesla Destructor works pretty well against flyers. Now, with the new dragon chaos thingy coming out soon, that might all change....

In any case, you definitely don't need Doom Scythes in your army. They still have some pretty big downsides, being fragile and all, as you pointed out. But I think as it stand now, until more ground based skyfire units come out, they're pretty overpowered. The new Chaos codex may shake this up a bit.

Toughtest game I've had so far was against a GK army with IG allies. Had a quad cannon behind an Aegis with camo netting. I've since adjusted my tactics to deal with it, but it was definitely a learning experience.

Actually, I hope that the new standard Chaos Marines have access to Flakk rocket launchers...with allies 'n stuff...

Actualy, the only thing that the Death Ray wont work on now is Zooming Flyers/Swooping FMCs. Which is quite a good array of targets. I have often taken out two or more AVanything targets in a single pass, without even firing the Teslas.

Also, I find that Destroyers are just better than Immortals because they are better at shooting the crap out of things IMHO

Just wanted to point out you were comparing 11 Immortals, which you can't actually run, with an 18" threat range (for rapid fire), with 36" threat range Destroyers. Sure, if they are coming in a Night Scythe, they can pull that off, at lest for one round of shooting. However, if they are coming in a Night Scythe, that means that aren't shooting turn one, and maybe even turn two. They also probably aren't going to enjoy that Rapdi Fire much, as if they are now an obvious, close, target for all your opponents shooting.

The Destroyers on the other hand will be firing from turn one on, and have the superior mobility to stay at max range, and take advantage of LOS blocking terrain and cover to minimize return fire.

Similar things can be said between Heavy D's and Doom Scythes. The Heavy D's can, and often will, shoot all game. They have the range, mobility, and resiliency to pull this off. The Night Scythe is a huge, fragile(ish, if they have competent anti-air) target, that is forced to get in close. It's also forced to sacrifice a minimum of one turn of shooting, often more. Now, don't get me wrong, it's still a bad mama-jama, particularly against Meched up forces with minimal anit-air. But against horde based armies (because they can use their footprint to force you off the board, and you're gonna kill what, 4 or 5 bases a turn when you can shoot?), or armies with strong, competent, anti-air, it struggles to pull its weight.

I used a Doom Scythe in a game against some Elysians. It took down 3 Vendettas and a Valkyrie before getting shot down. (Note, this was pre FAQ, so the Death ray worked.)

Why does everyone hate on szeras so much? I use him all the time. Do not underestimate 20 toughness 5 warriors, or even Str 5 warriors in assault. That is a unit my gaming group hates, zip around using obyron and szeras gives then defensive nades plus zandrekh gives counter attack. Do that means you get shot 40 times, then try to assault and get overwatch with 40 shots,.lose your charge bonus and the warriors get an attack bonus putting them at 40 attacks. Yea he certainly sucks...not to mention he comes with an Eldritch lance...

 Dave-c wrote:
Why does everyone hate on szeras so much? I use him all the time. Do not underestimate 20 toughness 5 warriors, or even Str 5 warriors in assault. That is a unit my gaming group hates, zip around using obyron and szeras gives then defensive nades plus zandrekh gives counter attack. Do that means you get shot 40 times, then try to assault and get overwatch with 40 shots,.lose your charge bonus and the warriors get an attack bonus putting them at 40 attacks. Yea he certainly sucks...not to mention he comes with an Eldritch lance...

I think its because hes 100pts and dosent open up a court.

I actually never even looked at his rules. I think I may need to try that out a couple of times.

Szeras blocks a HQ slot that does not unlock a Royal Court, he is a costly Destrok, his ability has a 33% chance of being crap (+S on Warriors, awesome.).

I do get the point of "Hey, S5 is better than nothing yo!". Yet...that's not what I get him for. Nobody buys Szeras to get stronger Necron Warriors, you want the +1T/BS. He is overpriced.

Just for the sake of comparison: Zandrekhh's abilities cost 5 (FIVE) points. All of them. Together.

For ~60 points, Szeras would be cool, but 100 is too much. Also...19,50€ for a 100 points model? Not going to happen GW.

Have you even tried using him?

I ask because you are right, 33% of his upgrades are useless, but you dont seem to see the right one. The BS5 upgrade is the least useful of the upgrades, it equates to one or two extra hits per turn.

When i roll str 5 i shoot at their long range and use them for assault at close range, str 5 is not to be underrated in assaults!

It doesnt seem that you completely understand the best way to use him, so dont trash him without trying!

Just my two cents.