Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

S5 on Necron warriors is not a decent stat. BS 5 equates to extra hits, which then goes on to giving a greater chance of getting those all so important glances on any vehicle, regardless of AV. Against infantry Warriors are much more limited. S4 Gauss ain't all that and Warriors (even the S5 variety) aren't that great in assault. Sure they may stand up to a tac squad a bit better, but when you forked out 260pts for 20 Warriors and 100pts for Szeras you should. Any decent dedicated assault unit will still tear you up.

If you want a decent assault unit try Wraiths/Praetorians with an attached D. Lord with all the bells and whistles. They are both units that are Fearless which is much more potent than in 5th and the D.Lord gives them the extra punch both units lack. I don't want to go into a debate about Flayed Ones as they are not a unit I will ever use and thus can't really comment on.

I'm personally into fliers, though my relationship with them began in 5th. Scythes in 6th just became better so I'm actually sitting pretty at the moment. I personally favour using Deathmarks with attached Despair teks and Warriors with Voltaic Staff teks all coming out of Scythes. Follow them up with a few Doom Scythes and some resilient stuff to start on the board with and you are good to go. It's not the only way forward, but it is competitive and it works for me. If full throttle, competitive, dump all over your opponent is not what you are looking for then you can always try out different combos and sees what works for you. Taking out the Doom Scythes softens the power level of the list nicely.

My issue with szeras, personally, is his stats. Stupid as it may be, I just can't see paying 100 points for a 2 wound immortal that has more attacks in assault (which I don't get WHY he gets so many base attacks when he should never be in assault). Yes I know you should be cushioning him with some other squad, but he's just so frikken weak I don't think I could see ever taking him. At least orikan will hulk out during the game and has an AP 2 CC weapon. I've actually fielded him against nids and he destroyed a number of MC's in CC, it was glorious.

 Lukus83 wrote:
I personally favour using Deathmarks with attached Despair teks and Warriors with Voltaic Staff teks all coming out of Scythes.

Can-openers & Man-openers.
Replace the Warriors with Immortals, and we're on the same page (personally, I don't play a game without them, now).
I just wish I had more Scythes, so I could employ more of them fekkers...

 Sigvatr wrote:
Szeras blocks a HQ slot that does not unlock a Royal Court, he is a costly Destrok, his ability has a 33% chance of being crap (+S on Warriors, awesome.).

I do get the point of "Hey, S5 is better than nothing yo!". Yet...that's not what I get him for. Nobody buys Szeras to get stronger Necron Warriors, you want the +1T/BS. He is overpriced.

Just for the sake of comparison: Zandrekhh's abilities cost 5 (FIVE) points. All of them. Together.

For ~60 points, Szeras would be cool, but 100 is too much. Also...19,50€ for a 100 points model? Not going to happen GW.

The only way you'd be disappointed by the Strength upgrade is if you didn't build the unit right. If you design the unit planning to get it up close and personal, then your never disappointed by any result. 20 Phaeroned Warriors or 10 Pyrrian Tesla Immortals are happy with either result. These units are designed to get into close combat.

Your pricing is a bit off as well. His statline increase over the norm destrotek with gaze is at least 60 points by itself. Also, he doesn't have the hidden cost of the overlord. So your really paying between 2 to 4 points per model for the upgrade on your troop selection. I think he might be a little over priced, but not more then 10 points or so. Also, it's a bad ass model, what does the point cost have to do with whether or not the model is a good buy?

But once you have spent 360 or 270 points you have to ask yourself why didn't you just use some Wraiths or Praetorians? If you are looking for cc beat sticks I mean.

And I think the points cost of the model certainly factors when making a purchase. After all we do want to actually use them. I do buy some models for the cool factor alone but mostly I buy for their playability.

ShadarLogoth wrote:


The only way you'd be disappointed by the Strength upgrade is if you didn't build the unit right. If you design the unit planning to get it up close and personal, then your never disappointed by any result. 20 Phaeroned Warriors or 10 Pyrrian Tesla Immortals are happy with either result. These units are designed to get into close combat.

If you plan to let Warriors get up close and personal, your army list is flawed. Neither Warriors nor Immortals are designed to be in melee, that's a downright wrong assumption. Wraiths, LG, Scarabs, FO, Destroyer Lords and C'Tan shards and TP are designed to be in melee. The rest of our codex is not designed to get in melee, in the contrary.

 Lukus83 wrote:
But once you have spent 360 or 270 points you have to ask yourself why didn't you just use some Wraiths or Praetorians? If you are looking for cc beat sticks I mean.

And I think the points cost of the model certainly factors when making a purchase. After all we do want to actually use them. I do buy some models for the cool factor alone but mostly I buy for their playability.

Because they are not scoring....I mean, you can have them too...but it's nice having a scoring option that can tangle in CC.

If you plan to let Warriors get up close and personal, your army list is flawed.

Not if you design them for that. A well tooled Phaeroned blob is plenty competent in CC. Period. There's no reason in pretending its not when it is, and their is no reason to not use it for those purposes. If you plan on out gunning every army you face and forfeiting opposing objectives to them, that is a flawed design. And you can't just rely out Night Scythes either (largely because if your going first...you lose). Take a good look at the Nova results and tell me how many Scythe spam armies (and their were a lot that showed up) finished in the top 16. You need an aggressive, scoring, unit to compete at the highest level. You can either Ally them in or you can make them yourself using the tools in the codex. The whole reason Phaeron exists (as it was the last "5th" edition codex and they were quite aware of the rapid fire changes) as well as Tesla being assault is to give Necrons this flexibility.

Overlord+Court+Phaeron/Tesla makes a very competent CC unit. I don't understand how anybody can argue otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neither Warriors nor Immortals are designed to be in melee, that's a downright wrong assumption. Wraiths, LG, Scarabs, FO, Destroyer Lords and C'Tan shards and TP are designed to be in melee. The rest of our codex is not designed to get in melee, in the contrary.

So they gave them Phaeron and Assault weapons and Royal Court members with CC upgrade because...

Edit: Sorry Sig, the original (if you saw it) came out more argumentative then I intended it.

Ask Fennel if his crons fear CC sometime. The tools are there. You can choose not to take the tools and have ineffective scoring options, or you can take them and win games.

Now, this isn't to say they are world beater against every CC enemy you might face, but 40 Rapid Fair Gauss Followed by 40 (minus casualties) CC attacks+Warscythe and MSS (or two) will be more then enough when facing things like Grey Hunters, or ASM, or even Genies.

Gonna try to structure that a bit:

> Tesla are Assault Weapons

Tesla are Assault Weapons for balance alone. Rapid Fire would make them overpowered, Heavy would make them terrible. Furthermore, be aware of the fact that the coxe was still released in 5th.

Attacking with Tesla Immortals is a terrible, terrible idea. Tesla excels at Overwatch and by attacking first, you hardly gain momentum whereas Overwatch on a full unit of Tesla Immortals will provide you with about 6 S5 hits that are 3+ to wound on most targets...not to mention that by deciding not to go melee, you can keep dancing around, always shooting at exactly 24''. In most cases, you get at least 1 additional shooting phase which is worth a LOT more.

> The Phaeron upgrade

Mainly in the codex because of the release in 5th. 20 points is ridiculous for an upgrade that virtually does nothing unless you plan to go in close combat. In case of Tesla Immortals, that's a bad idea, as provided above. In case of a Warrior blob, that certainly is a different case. You still lose on Overwatch yet you'd only miss out on about 3 S4 hits while at the same time, you'd gain about 10 additional S4 hits if you engage. At the same time, though, you have to be careful with what you assault in order to not lose too much on Overwatch. The problem, however, is that from that point on, you're in melee...

> Scythes didn't do that well in NOVA

You make a simple mistake here, a common one though. Your point is that CC Necron troops are viable and tried to back your point up by pointing at Scythe-spam. That's not a valid argument. You'd have to show that cc is effective, not that another list isn't I did not have a look at the NOVA results yet (army list wise) so I'd be glad if you could point to a thread / source where I can have a look at the results.

> Scythes in general

I agree with your point of one being in need of a solid core to defend objectives - yet again, a CC unit isn't going to cut it. If you are in melee, you cannot hold the objective as it's contested at the same time. Scythes, however, excel at providing your army with a stong core. They allow you to fly 24'' and still unload its content...that can still shoot normally! While at the same time, your troops are protected in a vehicle.

> 'crons in melee

I2. That's the point that matters the most. In most cc situations, Necrons will strike last and thus suffer casualties before their enemies will, reducing their overall strength. What's really bad about that, however, is that losing a fight even once is highly likely to wipe the entire squad off the table. Anyway, in melee, they aren't that bad vs. a tactical squad. They have a similar statline yet a worse armor save, terrible I and, unfortunately, not the now ridiculous immunity to being overrun. The decisive factor is the Lord with his warscythe...and the squad would fare well. However, it does come at the hefty price tag of 410 points. Just a full squad with an Overlord and Phaeron upgrade. You can get far, far better melee squads at the very same price or even less - while not being scoring, it would contest the objective and wreck the 'crons. Spending even more points on the unit, thus making it 500+ points would make it more expensive than some deathstars while not even being close to their power.

See, my point isn't that 'crons cannot be "good" in cc by all means...they can certainly win fights and become a competent cc unit (while not being even remotely close to the "highest level" as you put it). It's just that you spend a LOT of points on a unit that isn't meant for cc. Necron Warriors are meant to take vehicles down. If you want anti-infantry power, you get Tesla weaponry (AB and Immortals), not Gauss.

Oh, and don't worry about the tone or sth., that's the thing I hate about the internet...well, one of 'em. I also sound pretty hostile or passive-agressive sometimes, yet be assured that I am not and do not try to be. It's just what written text usualyl does unless you throw a lot of smileys in...and if you do, it looks slowed. meh.

As far as the warrior blobs go, you could vasty increase their shooting with Stalker if you are interested. 40 Twin Linked Gauss Flayer shots, paired with a phearon lord, charge with 40 melee attacks...would be completely disgusting. I cant think of many units that can weather that kind of fire power.

I love destroyers; I always send them off on the first turn to hunt tanks and more often than not will glance and penetrate them in that turn (much to my opponents rage) before inevitably getting assaulted to their doom.

You know, I am probably the only person here who prefers to give his immortals gauss instead of tesla.
I dunno why, I just do.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, I am probably the only person here who prefers to give his immortals gauss instead of tesla.
I dunno why, I just do.

All I have ever used are units with Gauss. Tesla is great, but I'll leave it to the Destructors. I'd rather rapid fire and glance.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, I am probably the only person here who prefers to give his immortals gauss instead of tesla.
I dunno why, I just do.

I did the same but realized it's ineffective. Gauss is meant to be used in mass in order to get those shiny 6s off thus I'd much rather spam Warriors instead of using Immortals with Gauss - but that's because I mainly play shooty 'crons along with a few Wraiths to back me up.

Tesla are Assault Weapons for balance alone. Rapid Fire would make them overpowered, Heavy would make them terrible. Furthermore, be aware of the fact that the coxe was still released in 5th.

Attacking with Tesla Immortals is a terrible, terrible idea. Tesla excels at Overwatch and by attacking first, you hardly gain momentum whereas Overwatch on a full unit of Tesla Immortals will provide you with about 6 S5 hits that are 3+ to wound on most targets...not to mention that by deciding not to go melee, you can keep dancing around, always shooting at exactly 24''. In most cases, you get at least 1 additional shooting phase which is worth a LOT more.

If you have a full squad of 10, it's closer to 4.5 S5 hits then it is 6, but that's a fair point. However, it's still only going to kill maybe one guy, where as the differential between you assaulting, and them not assaulting (unless they have defensive grenades and or counter attack), can very often be a much bigger difference then just one guy. Also, if you have the punch loaded up, say WS/MSS Lord, or they ar Pyrrian's, then you start having more and more reasons justifying an assault.

Mainly in the codex because of the release in 5th. 20 points is ridiculous for an upgrade that virtually does nothing unless you plan to go in close combat. In case of Tesla Immortals, that's a bad idea, as provided above. In case of a Warrior blob, that certainly is a different case. You still lose on Overwatch yet you'd only miss out on about 3 S4 hits while at the same time, you'd gain about 10 additional S4 hits if you engage. At the same time, though, you have to be careful with what you assault in order to not lose too much on Overwatch. The problem, however, is that from that point on, you're in melee...

I don't agree with it being a 5th hold over at all. It gives Necron troops exactly what they need to become formidable assault units. And really, between your rapid fire shots, your assault attacks, and your Warscythes/MSS, you'll beat most units in their phase of CC. Which is exactly what you want to do.

You make a simple mistake here, a common one though. Your point is that CC Necron troops are viable and tried to back your point up by pointing at Scythe-spam. That's not a valid argument. You'd have to show that cc is effective, not that another list isn't I did not have a look at the NOVA results yet (army list wise) so I'd be glad if you could point to a thread / source where I can have a look at the results.

Sorry, I didn't really communicate my point. What I was hinting at is, if your contingency for taking backfield objectives rests solely on beaming down with scythes late in the game, that's a fairly bad plan. You need scoring bodies that aren't afraid to get close to the enemy. Also, there was a thread in the tournie section just after Nova, I'll see if I can find it.

I agree with your point of one being in need of a solid core to defend objectives - yet again, a CC unit isn't going to cut it. If you are in melee, you cannot hold the objective as it's contested at the same time. Scythes, however, excel at providing your army with a stong core. They allow you to fly 24'' and still unload its content...that can still shoot normally! While at the same time, your troops are protected in a vehicle.

The idea is to get there early with a competent CC squad, push anything that is holding the objective off, then bust out the pic-a-nic baskets.

I2. That's the point that matters the most. In most cc situations, Necrons will strike last and thus suffer casualties before their enemies will, reducing their overall strength. What's really bad about that, however, is that losing a fight even once is highly likely to wipe the entire squad off the table.

Kabalite Warriors ar I5. TH/SS Terms are I1. Who would you take in a fight? Also, Crons are Leadership 10. While not as awesome as ATSKNF, its better then stubborn LD 8 guardsmen (thinking blobs here), at least up until losing combat by 2. Leadership 10 is a solid stat. Also, don't pick fights you don't think your going to win. If they're bigger then you, back up/strafe and shoot. If you're bigger then them, step forward, double tap, and charge. The solution you're advocating only has the former, the latter is a very valuable option.

Anyway, in melee, they aren't that bad vs. a tactical squad. They have a similar statline yet a worse armor save, terrible I and, unfortunately, not the now ridiculous immunity to being overrun. The decisive factor is the Lord with his warscythe...and the squad would fare well. However, it does come at the hefty price tag of 410 points. Just a full squad with an Overlord and Phaeron upgrade. You can get far, far better melee squads at the very same price or even less - while not being scoring, it would contest the objective and wreck the 'crons. Spending even more points on the unit, thus making it 500+ points would make it more expensive than some deathstars while not even being close to their power.

I think you're really undesrtimating how hard 40 rapid fire shots followed by 40 (minus cassualties) attacks hit. Slap in a couple of Warscythes and MSS and you have can kill 10 TH/SS termie stopping power. Or 20 Genies. Or 15 Wyches. I mean, short of a Pallystar, this unit could handle quite a bit in CC.

See, my point isn't that 'crons cannot be good in cc by all means...they can certainly win fights and become a competent cc unit (while not being even remotely close to the highest level; as you put it). It's just that you spend a LOT of points on a unit that isn't meant for cc. Necron Warriors are meant to take vehicles down. If you want anti-infantry power, you get Tesla weaponry (AB and Immortals), not Gauss.

See above. Any unit that can step forward and take out 10 TH/SS Termies or 20 Genies or I don't know, give me something else to consider...? Is a pretty damn good CC unit. MCs? Thats what the MSS and WS are for. ICs as well. Really, you're not giving this unit the credit it deserves.

Now, I'm not saying go charging headlong into a green tide or bugs. You still have strong shooting, and well out shoot most CC units. Use it as needed and spacing allows. But when that unit that has taken a turn or two of strafed or back pedaled Gauss Shots gets 12" away from you, you step forward, double tap that face, and assault. Big Blobs of Phaeroned Warriors are absolutely lethal when they get close to something. Not just so-so, but kick you in the face lethal. 80 attacks man. 80. S4. (minus cassualties) 2 Warscythes. 2 MSS. This is legit CC here. And most importantly, its strong shooting too. Pick a flank, march your way on that flank, and brutalize anything that gets close. Your not paying 410 (or really upwards of 500+ for what I'm advocating with Szeras) for just a goodish CC unit, you're paying for a scoring unit that is a nightmare to shoot down (with Ghost Arc support, Res orb, etc), and will poop slap you if you get close. Plus, you have to by one of those HQ's anyway, so their are some fixed costs in there as well. Try it out. At least on paper. Roll it off against some thing you often face. Something like:

Phaeron/Res Orb/WS/SW/MSS 170 (Imo and Trazyn can be slotted here, it breaks my heart to do it with Trazyn though, seems like a waist of his scoring potential)
Szeras 100 (Roll off any trait, you'll start to see how all 3 are pretty decent in this unit)
20 Blob 260
Lord MSS/WS/SW 75 (or Chrono with Imo)

The second lord is even a bit superfluous. You could easily go with a Transtek or Stormtek instead, save a few points. I do like having him to tank challenges so the Phaeron doesn't get stuck in something he can't handle if his MSS fails though. Pricey? Sure. But it makes up the anchor of your troops selection. Again, this is a unit that you either can count on surviving and cap its objective, or know that if it did die your oponent had to poor a truck load of firepower at it to take it down.

Oh, and don't worry about the tone or sth., that's the thing I hate about the internet...well, one of 'em. I also sound pretty hostile or passive-agressive sometimes, yet be assured that I am not and do not try to be. It's just what written text usualyl does unless you throw a lot of smileys in...and if you do, it looks slowed. meh.

heh, no doubt.

The issue isn't that warriors/immortals can be "ok" in close combat, it's that for what you're putting in the squad with them (Lords, crypteks, overlords, gear, blah blah) it is MUCH MUCH better suited to go into a squad of lychguard, praetorians, flayed ones (to a lesser extent), wraiths (to a lesser extent)...

Or quite honestly, a c'tan with gaze of death + whatever other power is about the same price as everything you're bringing up and would be better at it than them.

 Kevin949 wrote:
The issue isn't that warriors/immortals can be "ok" in close combat, it's that for what you're putting in the squad with them (Lords, crypteks, overlords, gear, blah blah) it is MUCH MUCH better suited to go into a squad of lychguard, praetorians, flayed ones (to a lesser extent), wraiths (to a lesser extent)...

Or quite honestly, a c'tan with gaze of death + whatever other power is about the same price as everything you're bringing up and would be better at it than them.

But it's much more then OK at CC. And again, you're only spending a fraction of that on CC. You have to buy an HQ no matter what. The rest you're spending on scoring, gauss flayer shooting, res orbed warriors. They are Warriors that also punch some face if you get close. They don't stop being Warriors, and doing the things that Warriors do. Primarily, scoring.

Now, I'm not advocating against anything you suggested, but when you go that route you never end up with a scoring CC threat. (Except if you slap Trazyn in with the LG, which is a notion I'm quite fond of actually). For that reason, I'm not sure how you can suggest the gear is much better suited elsewhere. Nowhere else can you take 40 Rapid Fire Shots and augment them with 40 CC attacks. No where else can you give 20 bodies a res orb (well, except the Flayed Ones). The great thing about the blob is you're multiplying that synergy accross a giant chunk of models.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
The issue isn't that warriors/immortals can be "ok" in close combat, it's that for what you're putting in the squad with them (Lords, crypteks, overlords, gear, blah blah) it is MUCH MUCH better suited to go into a squad of lychguard, praetorians, flayed ones (to a lesser extent), wraiths (to a lesser extent)...

Or quite honestly, a c'tan with gaze of death + whatever other power is about the same price as everything you're bringing up and would be better at it than them.

But it's much more then OK at CC. And again, you're only spending a fraction of that on CC. You have to buy an HQ no matter what. The rest you're spending on scoring, gauss flayer shooting, res orbed warriors. They are Warriors that also punch some face if you get close. They don't stop being Warriors, and doing the things that Warriors do. Primarily, scoring.

Now, I'm not advocating against anything you suggested, but when you go that route you never end up with a scoring CC threat. (Except if you slap Trazyn in with the LG, which is a notion I'm quite fond of actually). For that reason, I'm not sure how you can suggest the gear is much better suited elsewhere. Nowhere else can you take 40 Rapid Fire Shots and augment them with 40 CC attacks. No where else can you give 20 bodies a res orb (well, except the Flayed Ones). The great thing about the blob is you're multiplying that synergy accross a giant chunk of models.

You realize that if your warriors are in close combat there is a very good chance that your enemy is close enough to contest. Also, the fact that they are a scoring unit is one of the primary reasons you should not involve them in the most lethal aspect of this game.

I agree though that against something like a tac squad or similarly inept close combat squad, then ya the warriors are going to do alright. But against competent CC squads, the warriors are still going to be doing very little in comparison to the additional guys/gear you brought to support them. Yes, on a charge and considering things go well, you're looking at a typical average of (max squad) 20 hits, 10 wounds (assuming 4 to hit, 4 to wound). That's assuming the squad is still full strength, which it won't be.

Lets say, in a typical scenario of a 20 man squad you lose 7 by the time you get in CC (including those lost at the beginning of assault prior to RP). So, with FC and all that other business, you're looking at 4+ to hit and 2+ to wound, on average. Right? So, that's about what, 11 wounds? While still respectable, on the charge, you're only looking at about 3 unsaved wounds. Obviously this is assuming going against the prolific marines and not guard or something equally weak (in terms of armor, not army strength). So, the way I see it is all that work was for 3 unsaved wounds on a charge (from just the warriors, I'm not counting the added guys because they can go just about anywhere else so their outcome would be same in any squad). Which will be significantly less every round after that.

Run the same numbers with flayed ones but triple the attacks for everything. They won't be Str 6 on the charge but str 5 is good. The numbers are MUCH better, for an identically priced unit. Yes, it's not scoring, but again necron troops shouldn't necessarily be in combat in the first place. It's not that they're terrible at it, it's just not their place. It's the reason our CC options are actually rather good, despite the low initiative.

I don't necessarily disagree with your mentality Kevin, but I just know from experience that having one solid squad like this can be a real boon to your tactical flexibility. Also, keep in mind that while you might have taken some casualties, the enemy has taken some too, and proportionally more (as you have a 4+/RP 4+, Ghost Arc, not too mention the Overlord wounds to hide behind). The key though, is the rapid fire advance with the charge. If you don't feel reasonably certain that your going to wipe them in two rounds, you don't go for the knock out punch. Just keep your distance, and shoot. That's why you don't end up in CC by the time it takes to claim objectives, by the end of turn 5 the fighting should be done. Picnic time.

Again though, rapid fire. It's a massive part of the equation. If they didn't have the Relentless Gauss Flayers I would absolutely agree with you just stick with the Flayed Ones. But that double tap and then assault makes all the difference in the world. It's almost like 40 I 10 attacks.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with your mentality Kevin, but I just know from experience that having one solid squad like this can be a real boon to your tactical flexibility. Also, keep in mind that while you might have taken some casualties, the enemy has taken some too, and proportionally more (as you have a 4+/RP 4+, Ghost Arc, not too mention the Overlord wounds to hide behind). The key though, is the rapid fire advance with the charge. If you don't feel reasonably certain that your going to wipe them in two rounds, you don't go for the knock out punch. Just keep your distance, and shoot. That's why you don't end up in CC by the time it takes to claim objectives, by the end of turn 5 the fighting should be done. Picnic time.

Again though, rapid fire. It's a massive part of the equation. If they didn't have the Relentless Gauss Flayers I would absolutely agree with you just stick with the Flayed Ones. But that double tap and then assault makes all the difference in the world. It's almost like 40 I 10 attacks.

Indeed, it's just a lot of support to pull off something like that. I'm really not doubting your experience with it and I'm sure it can be quite formidable in it's own right.

Yeah no doubt. It's something I kind of evolved into with my Imo list. But now I've kind of gotten use to having at least one solid troop selection maxed out like this. Whether they be 20 Warriors with a Phaeron or 10 Pyrrian (I always buture that spelling) Immortals. Doesn't make all my lists, but it's a comfort zone to have.

If you have the models and the GA's I really suggest giving it a try. You tend to draw a large target on them, which given the inherent resiliency of the whole squad is kind of the idea.

Update on a Szeras game.

Vs nids, rolled str 5. Storm lord with a guard and a prime caught up with me, had lords with mss and scythe, trazyn and 20 warriors. Gave unit furious charge from zandrekh.

Rapid fire, caused some wounds, assaulted and should have won combat with str 6 warriors,but out of mss on the stormlord, 6 warscyth attacks, and 40 str 6 attacks hitting on 4 and wounding on 4, i caused three total wounds, two were saved(mega warscythe fail 1 hit no wounds lol, plus horrible rolling, two attacks out of 40 wounding should have put ten wounds on them) i lost combat. However, numbers wise i should have beaten what in my mind is the best cc unit in the game.

Just another example of how good that unit is, just bad rolling. In my mind i will remember how that should have worked lol.

@shadarlogoth:

I believe you are greatly exaggerating your numbers. You throw around the number of 40 attacks minus casualties, but that is very misleading.

Your assuming that by the time a warrior blob is close enough to a unit to assault it, it still has 20 models.

Even if you assume they are at full strength, they will be shot with overwatch and then hit last in combat all before you get RP at the end of the assault phase.

If that 20 man unit attacked a tac squad, they WILL lose a model or 2 to overwatch, and with a 4+ save they WILL lose several more models to assault. THEN they hit back.... And statistically, they will never get a full 40 attacks. If they lose assault, they have to take the morale check BEFORE RP, and if they fail that test, they are as good as swept with I2... And you get no RP roll.

Your trying to use a shooty unit as an assault unit, and like others have pointed out, by the time you put an overlord with Phaeron, a scythe and a lord in that 20 man unit, you have a very expensive unit that will statistically only do well against small non-assault units that cost MUCH less.

A dedicated assault unit will eat them alive, and a horde unit will tarpit them with a much cheaper costing unit.

 BarBoBot wrote:
@shadarlogoth:

I believe you are greatly exaggerating your numbers. You throw around the number of 40 attacks minus casualties, but that is very misleading.

Your assuming that by the time a warrior blob is close enough to a unit to assault it, it still has 20 models.

Even if you assume they are at full strength, they will be shot with overwatch and then hit last in combat all before you get RP at the end of the assault phase.

If that 20 man unit attacked a tac squad, they WILL lose a model or 2 to overwatch, and with a 4+ save they WILL lose several more models to assault. THEN they hit back.... And statistically, they will never get a full 40 attacks. If they lose assault, they have to take the morale check BEFORE RP, and if they fail that test, they are as good as swept with I2... And you get no RP roll.

Your trying to use a shooty unit as an assault unit, and like others have pointed out, by the time you put an overlord with Phaeron, a scythe and a lord in that 20 man unit, you have a very expensive unit that will statistically only do well against small non-assault units that cost MUCH less.

A dedicated assault unit will eat them alive, and a horde unit will tarpit them with a much cheaper costing unit.

This is mostly false. First, you completely ignoring the 40 rapid fire shots. That is where the combat begins, not at overwatch. Eliminating the biggest punch out of the warriors repertoire completely scews the numbers. Also, sure, you might have taken some casualties before a situation comes up where they are assaulting, but so might have what you are assaulting, and another thing you seem to not understand is a Warrior brick with a res orb backed with GA's is exactly what you want your opponent shooting at. It is, combined with its Overlord, your tank, for all intents and purposes.

Shooty unit with rapid fire assault weapons is an assault unit. Your notion that a "small non-assault unit" is all they can take and a "dedicated assault unit will eat them alive" is completely inaccurate, it only proves that you have neither experimented with this unit in actually games nor run the numbers to see its potential. So, I'll do some of your homework for you:

Tactical marines are a joke, so lets try something with a little more teeth. Say a full 10 squad of Shrikes, two Psycannons as that tends to be the preferred load out.

40 Rapid Fire shots kill 40(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)=4.44 Wait, what's that? You unit is half dead and combat hasn't even started? Oops...I'll round down, give you the benefit of the doubt...

8 Psy shots kill 8(1/6)(5/6) + 6 SB shots 6(1/6)(1/2)(1/2) =1.36 Plus CC 6(1/2)(1/2)=2.86 I'll round up this time. Keep in mind that likely only 2 died in CC. So we have 17 Warriors:

34(1/2)(1/2)(1/3)=2.83 Well, I think I've earned a round up here. So, pretending that the Overlord+Court completely whiff, and not adding in benefit from Szeras (who this conversation started with), really just looking at the Phaeroned Warriors alone, we win combat 3 to 2, and are left with 18 to 19 Warriors after Res Orb versus 3 Shrikes. So please, tell me again how they can only take on "small non-assault units." I'm all ears.

20 warriors, an overlord with Phaeron, Rez orb and scythe is 410 points... How many points is the unit they shot at in your scenario?

If I use 400 points of models to attack 200 points of models, I would expect them to come out on top...

I play necrons and I HAVE ran warrior blobs with overlord/ res orb...

While your warrior blob is slowly marching across the table, units with bikes/wings/jump packs/ cavalry etc. are going to get the charge on you... Every time. You will eat I10 hammer of wrath attacks and then the normal attacks before you get your single I2 attack per warrior.

You WILL lose combat, and you WILL be swept before you even get RP.

If you ever face SW with jotww... You'll wave goodbye to your overlord with orb before they even get to combat... Not to mention how easy it is to snipe models with precision shot or by using vehicles to obscure the rest of the unit leaving the character as the only model able to take wounds from shooting... All so you could take your shooty troop unit and try to make it in your words " better than ok in cc"

Kikojui wrote:
Drop pod armies, from a necron perspective...

I hate drop pod armies.

I've spent an extensive amount of time sorting, playing and modifying lists for my necrons 1500 point bracket army.
and I've settled for something around this (roughly)

3 squads of 20 warriors.
2 lords with res orbs in he flanking squads.
5 destroyers with a destroyer lord (semi weave and res orb)
2 heavy destroyers with Szeras

( mostly because the destroyers are AP3 so no annoying saves from SM which are the majority at my club)
I'm confident with most armies I play, but drop pods destroy me so badly to the point where it feels unfair and almost pointless.

Taking first or second turn yeilds nothing, pods fall, heavy flamers and plasma just rip my troops to pieces.

Necron's work best engaging the enemy at mid range, at close range they are as good as toast no matter the unit (I've tried them all bay the stalker when I'm buying soon)
Do I just accept that I just can't do anything about the drop pods armies or is there something I've overlooked? Also any other necron players have any expirences with drop pod armies?

Last game I played was 3 pods(melta troop heavy) HQ was hestan, a storm talon, a vendetta and 2 chimeras (full or plasma and melta).

Any advice is welcome, for now I'm just going to refuse to play them because to me, I can't do anything but waste a hour watching all my units die.

Ok so kinda on the question drop pods can be a bit crappy to deal with but if your expecting them you can change a great deal to combat them more effecetivly.
Here is how i do it.

First off deploment is deffinetly going to help you if you opponent is going to use a Drop pod list with at least a few drop pods put all your stuff as tight to each other as possible and as close to an edge to prevent a surround which can suck a lot. Next you want to allow yoiur opponent to go first so half his pods have to hit the table which means the marines or w/e are inside cannot assault first turn giving you an advantage to assauslt them first.

Wraiths are what you want to assault with.... no better thing in the army to assault with. With whip coils anything in base contact is going to attack last you have rending and will wound most things on 2s or 3s with 4 attacks on the charge 6 are a dealy force and to make matters even more worse for the opponent if he doesnt take them out which can be an issue with 2 wounds and a 3+ save no matter what. (unless GK have that thing that removes inv. save) if your wraiths get lucky on your first turn the pods occupants will be handled right there and you can move out from there. but again depending on your list and how you play there are deffinetly other ways to handle pod armies if your fairly shooty you can just end them with sheer numbers. as long as the pods can't surround you youll have a much easyer time dealing with them.

20 warriors, an overlord with Phaeron, Rez orb and scythe is 410 points... How many points is the unit they shot at in your scenario?

If I use 400 points of models to attack 200 points of models, I would expect them to come out on top...

First, that's a far cry from your first statement, second, they just aren't coming out on top, they are coming out virtually unscathed, ready to take on another 200 point unit, and then another, and then another...

I play necrons and I HAVE ran warrior blobs with overlord/ res orb...

How many times, once? Because your notions of them couldn't be more inaccurate.

While your warrior blob is slowly marching across the table, units with bikes/wings/jump packs/ cavalry etc. are going to get the charge on you... Every time. You will eat I10 hammer of wrath attacks and then the normal attacks before you get your single I2 attack per warrior.

Simply not true. With back pedaling/strafing, premeasuring, other counter assault units like wraiths, you can very easily dictate when the assault happens against these units. And they are only going to get HoW if you allow them to use their jump packs in the assault phase, which generally means you did something wrong. It's pretty simple, if they start off within 18", you step forward and rapid fire that face, if they start off beyond 18", you step back and unload at max range. With the casualties they take plus potential overwatch, they will be hard pressed to get into assault, and by the time they do they will be so whittled down they will be quite manageable.

You WILL lose combat, and you WILL be swept before you even get RP.

If your bad, or roll horribly, sure that can happen. It can also happen to every other unit in the game. Not much of an argument.

If you ever face SW with jotww... You'll wave goodbye to your overlord with orb before they even get to combat... Not to mention how easy it is to snipe models with precision shot or by using vehicles to obscure the rest of the unit leaving the character as the only model able to take wounds from shooting... All so you could take your shooty troop unit and try to make it in your words " better than ok in cc"

?? jotww is a concern for every single Necron unit. And I don't know how you could possibly mess up placement so poorly that your Overlord is visible and your 20 warriors are not. It's a way above average assault unit that can also shoot. It's ability to shoot, and shoot with force, is what separates it against 95% of the assault units out there. DCA, Genies, TH/SS terms, all can be handled, and handled easily. That is why you invest that level of points into a unit like this, because it can shoot, cc, and score, and is point for point incredibly resilient. It allows you to dictate the terms of engagement with what ever your facing.

Oh you must be right, and all the people that pointed out that necron troops shouldn't be actively seeking combat are wrong right?

So you make a unit worth double the points of their target, and when 400+ points kills 200 points you get the idea that it's because your shooty unit is now a good assault unit because you spent double the points killing the target?

Whoever you playing against are bad players if they are getting assaulted by footslogging necron warriors...

I would love for you to show the math on how 400+ points of your "more than ok in cc" warriors fares against 400+ points instead of your absurd comparisons of 400+ points being good because they killed a 200 point unit...

Oh you must be right, and all the people that pointed out that necron troops shouldn't be actively seeking combat are wrong right?

Yes, exactly. I'm certainly not the only person that understands this. I'm aware their is a prevailing misconception though. I'm also aware that this misconception is based off people making way to big of a deal out of I2 and not looking at the rest of the capabilities in aggregate.

So you make a unit worth double the points of their target, and when 400+ points kills 200 points you get the idea that it's because your shooty unit is now a good assault unit because you spent double the points killing the target?

Seriosly, did you not understand that demonstration at all? The only benefit I gave the Warriors was Phaeron, 10 GKSS with 2 cannons is a lot more then 200 points, and they completely crushed them. Completely. Crush them. Like it wasn't even close. At all. Please re-read that.

Whoever you playing against are bad players if they are getting assaulted by footslogging necron warriors...

/sigh Great. Then my very competent shooting and resilient scoring unit won't get assaulted and will casually make its way to your deployment zone and camp an objective. The whole point of a close combat is to control the battlefield. If you can push your opponent around because they are trying to stay away from a unit like this your a long way towards winning the game.

I would love for you to show the math on how 400+ points of your "more than ok in cc" warriors fares against 400+ points instead of your absurd comparisons of 400+ points being good because they killed a 200 point unit...

Sure. 10 TH/SS termies. 400 points at least, depending on the codex. One of the most feared CC units in the game:

Rapid Fire:
40(2÷3)(1÷2)(1÷6)=2.22 plus CC 40(1/2)(1/2)(1/6)=3.88 plus 7 WS attacks 7(1/2)(5/6)(1/3)= 4.86

We'll say one MSS goes off (our of two) and that rounds the casualties out to and even 5 (3 probably in CC).

5 Termies left, one of which is MSS'ed, 8(1/2)(5/6)=3.33 So the terms might tie CC, or they might win by one (9 or under on 2D6, and terms can't sweep). The Warriors will get 1 or 2 back from RP. Then you have 18 to 19 Warriors, Lord, Overlord, versus 5 Terms:

18(1/2)(1/2)(1/6) + 5(1/2)(5/6)(1/3)=1.44

Again, one MSS goes off leaving the terms with 3, one of which is MSSed:

4(1/2)(5/6)=1.67, again right around a tie in CC, Res Orb kicks in, rinse and repeat till the last 3 die.

So, against one of the most feared CC units in the game, the crons are likely to win, and win BIG. Like with at least half their Warriors still in tact.

In the scenario above though you have given all the advantages to the Necrons, or at least that the Terminator player isn't very good

1. They are in rapid fire range followed by an assault. Now that premeasuring is in it's not too likely this will happen. More likely it would be rapid fire followed by the Terminators assaulting you.

2. You are also assuming all Necron Warriors will get to attack in cc. 20 Warriors + Lord + Overlord will have a hard time getting every model engaged. This is hard to quantify but it really should be assumed that a few models won't be making cc attacks first round.

3. Why would the Terminators let an MSS'ed model not be among the casualties? That would be the first guy to die, so you should really allow for one more terminator to be making attacks.

The math (IMO) in my opinion in this particular case isn't worth doing. I know what Warriors are supposed to do and I let them do it (shoot and hold objectives at range). Late game there may be a need to move closer to the enemy but by that point my shooting should have done it's job...I'm simply now mopping up or following the lead of my dedicated cc units. Sure I can spend 400+ points and make them semi-competent in cc but why would I when there are more efficient ways to spend the points. And wouldn't you rather your opponent was shooting at non-scoring units? I mean Praetorians and Wraiths are absolute killers but another point as to why they are so attractive is because they absorb a vast amount of shooting that would otherwise be going into Troops choices which aren't nearly so survivable.

Of course if you aren't looking at full throttle competitiveness then sure I guess it could be considered semi-competitive. But if you want to take the competitive route then I would have to advocate Scythes. A far better way to spend 400+ points.

In the scenario above though you have given all the advantages to the Necrons, or at least that the Terminator player isn't very good

Not really, but it was an illustration. The Necrons have the guns though, so they either back up an shoot, or close in and assault when the oppurtunity presents itself. The Terms "have no choice" but to try and press for the assault.

1. They are in rapid fire range followed by an assault. Now that premeasuring is in it's not too likely this will happen. More likely it would be rapid fire followed by the Terminators assaulting you.

Again, not really. Random assault can change this, but generally speaking if you are greater then 12" away at the start of your turn you back up and shoot them, if you are closer the 12" you step forward, double tap, and assault them. There really isn't much the Terms can do other then ignore you and go for something else. Now, of course, you can introduce a LR into the equation, be we all know that Necrons don't really fear LRs at all.

2. You are also assuming all Necron Warriors will get to attack in cc. 20 Warriors + Lord + Overlord will have a hard time getting every model engaged. This is hard to quantify but it really should be assumed that a few models won't be making cc attacks first round.

Not a bad point, but 10 TH/SS termies can be similarly restricted. With 2d6" assault range I've rarely had trouble getting the vast majority into assault, it's all about how you place your models and whether or not you have template or blasts to consider.

3. Why would the Terminators let an MSS'ed model not be among the casualties? That would be the first guy to die, so you should really allow for one more terminator to be making attacks.

That's a good point. The Warriors would lose a couple models more, but they would still throttle the crap out of them. I also didn't allow for any pre-softening of the Term Unit, although that would likely occur as well.

The math (IMO) in my opinion in this particular case isn't worth doing. I know what Warriors are supposed to do and I let them do it (shoot and hold objectives at range). Late game there may be a need to move closer to the enemy but by that point my shooting should have done it's job...I'm simply now mopping up or following the lead of my dedicated cc units. Sure I can spend 400+ points and make them semi-competent in cc but why would I when there are more efficient ways to spend the points. And wouldn't you rather your opponent was shooting at non-scoring units? I mean Praetorians and Wraiths are absolute killers but another point as to why they are so attractive is because they absorb a vast amount of shooting that would otherwise be going into Troops choices which aren't nearly so survivable.

Your definition of what Warriors are "suppose to do" is 100% based off assumptions. Now, you can design a Warrior unit that is "suppose to do that," in fact every army should have at least such units, but that doesn't mean that is the only viable way to take them. And please, semi-competent...I just illustrated them throttling mercilessly one of the best CC units in the game. Lets stop using words that have been proven to be inaccurate. They are extremely competent in CC. And, again, your not spending 400+ points on CC, you're going to buy the Warriors anyway, you're also going to buy the Overlord anyway, you're really only spending about 100 points to weld those two, already purchased units, effectively together.

Of course if you aren't looking at full throttle competitiveness then sure I guess it could be considered semi-competitive. But if you want to take the competitive route then I would have to advocate Scythes. A far better way to spend 400+ points.

Warrior blobs have made their way into many, many "competitive lists."

My rant on the word "competitive:"


Not to derail the thread...that word just irks me.