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The point methinks is that these characters were never intended or designed to be I1 fighters, never have been before dating back 4 editions and 16 years, and it goes against the theme and feel of the army because of an arbitrary core rules change making power weapons with blade X into bad powerfists and power weapons with blade Y into AP3 CCW's, etc.

I don't play BA's, in fact I'm not exactly a fan of them much at all, but I do feel that the weapons changes are...silly, to put it nicely.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The point methinks is that these characters were never intended or designed to be I1 fighters, never have been before dating back 4 editions and 16 years, and it goes against the theme and feel of the army because of an arbitrary core rules change making power weapons with blade X into bad powerfists and power weapons with blade Y into AP3 CCW's, etc.

I don't play BA's, in fact I'm not exactly a fan of them much at all, but I do feel that the weapons changes are...silly, to put it nicely.

Considering that this is how weapons worked in second edition, you mean three editions, since third was the edition that dumbed down all the older rules and made all melee weapons standardize.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The point methinks is that these characters were never intended or designed to be I1 fighters, never have been before dating back 4 editions and 16 years, and it goes against the theme and feel of the army because of an arbitrary core rules change making power weapons with blade X into bad powerfists and power weapons with blade Y into AP3 CCW's, etc.

I don't play BA's, in fact I'm not exactly a fan of them much at all, but I do feel that the weapons changes are...silly, to put it nicely.

Considering that this is how weapons worked in second edition, you mean three editions, since third was the edition that dumbed down all the older rules and made all melee weapons standardize.

You're correct that all of the weapons were different in 1st and 2nd edition, except that there were no initiative penalties just because you decided to take an Axe to work that day.

An Axe in 2nd edition was Str6 with a -3 save mod when wielded two-handed, or Str5 with a -2 save mod one-handed.
A Sword in 2nd edition was Str5 with a -3 save mod and parry.
Both would force a Marine to save on a 6, so both were pretty darn useful.
Neither really worked versus Terminators, you needed to take a Powerfist for a -5 save modifier.

But no matter which weapon you took, it would still be useful. Now, if you choose a Sword and you're fighting against Terminators that day, sucks to suck! At least with a Sword in 2nd you'd still be able to have a fighting chance.

Dante's axe was FAQed to in fact be a power axe, not a power weapon, so you could model him wielding an exceptionally busty woman and it would still be a power axe.

And it's not just 85 points for a bonus round of survivability. It's 85 (90, actually) points for a bonus round, plus FNP, and an extra 3 power weapon attacks. Heck, make it 95 points and toss some meltabombs on the guy if you're running light on anti-tank.

And in cases where Dante's survivability is not in question then Dante can go ahead and cream the opposition instead of the Priest.

As a ba player I don't really have a problem with this, I would much prefer the ability to use an all deep strike jump infantry list. Alas, 6th does not deem us worthy. As it stands, I love my BA and will play them no matter how bad they are in comparison to the rest of the armies but truth be told they are not lacking much if anything at all. And if they are, allies are there.

I know it sucks that we took a huge hit in the initiative department and tactical flexibility with 6th, but that just means that you can find new ways to play and enjoy the army to keep it fresh. I just may try out bikes for the first time ever. And I never really liked librarians before but now I almost always run one. And death company? Amazing. There are positives along with the negatives.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The point methinks is that these characters were never intended or designed to be I1 fighters, never have been before dating back 4 editions and 16 years, and it goes against the theme and feel of the army because of an arbitrary core rules change making power weapons with blade X into bad powerfists and power weapons with blade Y into AP3 CCW's, etc.

I don't play BA's, in fact I'm not exactly a fan of them much at all, but I do feel that the weapons changes are...silly, to put it nicely.

This.

99% the monkeys at GW didnt even realize they were gimping dante at the same time with their dumb little tacked on power axe rules.

and i agree with OP. GG gimping a bunch of stuff because you dont fully think anything through GW.

Dante gets an AP3 Unusual Power Weapon.
OMG NERF. The OLDEST MUHREEN CAN'T KILL TERMINATORS

Dante gets an AP2 Power Axe.
OMG NERF. THE OLDEST MUHREEN CAN"T STRIKE AT INIT.

I propose that since Dante is the OLDEST AND BLOODEST AND ANGELIEST MUHREEN he should get a rerollable 2+/2++ save (BLUD ANGELS are the ARTIFICIEST too), cause ID with every attack, Str 10, counts as striking at I10, No armor or invul saves allowed. Also since everyone gets EW and FNP, Dante should get super EW where he gets back up each turn on a 2+, FNP of 2+ that cannot be removed by anything.

FallenAfh wrote:
Dante gets an AP3 Unusual Power Weapon.
OMG NERF. The OLDEST MUHREEN CAN'T KILL TERMINATORS

Dante gets an AP2 Power Axe.
OMG NERF. THE OLDEST MUHREEN CAN"T STRIKE AT INIT.

I propose that since Dante is the OLDEST AND BLOODEST AND ANGELIEST MUHREEN he should get a rerollable 2+/2++ save (BLUD ANGELS are the ARTIFICIEST too), cause ID with every attack, Str 10, counts as striking at I10, No armor or invul saves allowed. Also since everyone gets EW and FNP, Dante should get super EW where he gets back up each turn on a 2+, FNP of 2+ that cannot be removed by anything.

But he could still deepstrike mishap :(

If you're looking at Dante and are only looking at him as a beatstick, you're missing the entire point of Dante. Dante is one of those special characters that makes a unit that should never count as scoring count as scoring. He makes sanguiniary guard scoring and comes with a power weapon, not the other way around. If what you want is a BA special character that is a beatstick, let me introduce you to Mephiston...

As for his beatstick abilities, he is running around with a power fist with -2S but +1A. Given that you're already wounding most things on a 2+, the extra attack is rather useful. As others have mentioned, there is very little that is both S8 AND can pick him out of a squad. If you're really that concerned about challenges, then just stick him in a squad that contains at least one character. Easy peasy.

 Rysaer wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:
Dante gets an AP3 Unusual Power Weapon.
OMG NERF. The OLDEST MUHREEN CAN'T KILL TERMINATORS

Dante gets an AP2 Power Axe.
OMG NERF. THE OLDEST MUHREEN CAN"T STRIKE AT INIT.

I propose that since Dante is the OLDEST AND BLOODEST AND ANGELIEST MUHREEN he should get a rerollable 2+/2++ save (BLUD ANGELS are the ARTIFICIEST too), cause ID with every attack, Str 10, counts as striking at I10, No armor or invul saves allowed. Also since everyone gets EW and FNP, Dante should get super EW where he gets back up each turn on a 2+, FNP of 2+ that cannot be removed by anything.

But he could still deepstrike mishap :(

If you make a Character that doesn't scatter mishap you deserve to lose him.

*Sigh* gosh it's always a kick in the collective junk of gamers (or at very least this gamer) when i see someone rage out about rules in their codex like this... To make a long story short, please continue I shan't be wasting brainpower here.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Yeah, but I wasn't responding to people mentioning that as their point, I was responding to those who seem to think S 6 is some big rare deal

Ahh. Apologies then.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alkasyn wrote:
How about a scratch-build Dante with a Power Sword? I know I made my DE characters Scratch built and do not intend to change them if their official counterparts have different weapons.

You can scratchbuild your minis all you want. It doesn't change the fact that if a special character's rules say he has a power axe, then that is what he has because the rules also say special characters must be played as presented and not with equipment customizations.

Skriker

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Wow... the OP really needs to cut back on the Red Bulls...

Dante is fine. He is nasty. I have fought him many times in non-Sanguinary guard armies, and he is not fun to play against...

Agreed. I can't believe no one has mentioned Hit and Run yet either. Dante does his infernus bombing run with his Sanguinary Guard pals, kills whatever he wanted to, and then when he gets into assault, he just Hits & Runs out (which is almost guaranteed with his I6 that you complain is now "useless") and is once again able to use those Infernus Pistols to destroy another 200pts+ unit. To top it off, his Death Mask permanently debuffs an enemy model, which is a huge middle finger to most opponents... and really, what's wrong with being I1 when you get +1S and AP2 as a trade-off? He's got 4 wounds and you can just feed challengers a Sanguinary Priest if you're afraid of them.

Whether or not you think Dante got a nerf, I think it's extremely silly to complain that your 225pt character of death sucks in the slightest.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Wow... the OP really needs to cut back on the Red Bulls...

Dante is fine. He is nasty. I have fought him many times in non-Sanguinary guard armies, and he is not fun to play against...

Agreed. I can't believe no one has mentioned Hit and Run yet either. Dante does his infernus bombing run with his Sanguinary Guard pals, kills whatever he wanted to, and then when he gets into assault, he just Hits & Runs out (which is almost guaranteed with his I6 that you complain is now "useless") and is once again able to use those Infernus Pistols to destroy another 200pts+ unit. To top it off, his Death Mask permanently debuffs an enemy model, which is a huge middle finger to most opponents... and really, what's wrong with being I1 when you get +1S and AP2 as a trade-off? He's got 4 wounds and you can just feed challengers a Sanguinary Priest if you're afraid of them.

Whether or not you think Dante got a nerf, I think it's extremely silly to complain that your 225pt character of death sucks in the slightest.

Yup I have to agree within a year or two the whinging will quiet. Lets break this down shall we. Blood angels captain with Power armor a jump pack infernius pistol and a power axe is 155 points. master crafted to the axe adds 5 artificer 20 (i'm assigning an arbitrary value based on codex space marines) death mask 15 pts. so for 195 points we have dante then add +1 w +1 A +1 I you don't scatter and you mske sanguinary guard troops for a measly 30 pts not bad.

This is the way the new edition works i bought the metal librarian with plasma pistol a while ago. Now He's I1 and has no invulnerable now that stinks.

power weapons should have never been nerfed in the first place.

at 15 points it was questionable if they were worth it in 5th. now that theyre only AP3. they are def not worth it. they are very gimp.

basically only grey knights needed their power weapons nerfed.

Are you clueless?

There are now 4 types of Power Weapon to choose from, all for the same cost.

Power Swords are AP3, Power Axes are +1Str AP2 I1, Mauls are +2Str AP4, and Lances are +1Str AP3 on the charge and AP4 afterwards.

You get to pick one of the above for those 15 points. That sort of variety is awsome.

 Grey Templar wrote:
He has 2+/4++ save, possably with FnP.

If he didn't have such good saves you might have a point, but seeing as he has very good saves he is very likely to survive the higher inititive bumbs and then strike back with Str6 Ap2.


And Sang Guard are amazing. Your choice of any power weapon, axe, sword, maul, or lance that is Master Crafted. And they have 2+ armor.

pretty sure that the Glaive Encarmines were FAQ'd to be able to choose either a sword or axe. The FAQ didn't list them as two of the possibilities. Unless that FAQ has been updated.

At the same time, that also means that The Sanquinor could have one or the other as well.

Of course, that's more of an issue for YMDC.

I'm surprised that the OP mentioned "most BA HQs" in the thread description. I honestly can't see how 6th as nerfed any of the other Blood Angel HQs this edition. Aside from Astorath swinging last (not as much of a big deal, since Astorath's combat ability is secondary to the unlocks he provides for Death Company, and besides which, unlike other Chappies, he is AP2), Mephiston, and arguably the Sanguinor, are still as good as ever. The main issue for them is that they need to avoid 2+ saves, which should be easy for them as long as they don't fight Deathwing or GK Termie spam. And as has been argued quite effectively throughout this thread, Dante is still a great choice.

kb305 wrote:
power weapons should have never been nerfed in the first place.

at 15 points it was questionable if they were worth it in 5th. now that theyre only AP3. they are def not worth it. they are very gimp.

basically only grey knights needed their power weapons nerfed.

They were only questionable in 5th because the question was 'power fist or power weapon', not 'should I not take a power weapon at all?'. And that was only the case because the game was heavily meachanised. If you knew you'd be facing a lot of vehicles, it was power fists, because they could punch through a tank, if not, power weapon.

This wouldn't have changed at all in 6th either. Even with hull points apparently nerfing vehicles, you still see a lot of them. So you'd still simply be asking yourself - power fist or power weapon? Now different weapons have clear roles. You have your anti-MEQ (sword), anti-TEQ (axe), anti-horde (maul) and glass cannon (spear) power weapons. A hilarious by-product of the AP system is that the maul is better at anti-TEQ than the sword, despite having a worse AP.

Sure, the implementation was a bit wonky. Forcing it on weapon appearance (forcing people to mutilate nicely painted models to swap weapons), then flip flopping on certain weapons (hi demiklaives!) shows they didn't think it through completely. But it added a bit of needed variety to assault. Before, it was simply 'pick a power weapon and be better against everything except vehicles, or pick a power fist for slightly more points and be better against everything including vehicles'. Now it's actually a choice which way you go.

The big issue now is, as this thread points out, special characters with axes who were never meant to strike last or with swords who were meant to be anti-TEQ. They should have simply given their power weapons individual rules rather than lump them in with power weapon types.

 Rysaer wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:
Dante gets an AP3 Unusual Power Weapon.
OMG NERF. The OLDEST MUHREEN CAN'T KILL TERMINATORS

Dante gets an AP2 Power Axe.
OMG NERF. THE OLDEST MUHREEN CAN"T STRIKE AT INIT.

I propose that since Dante is the OLDEST AND BLOODEST AND ANGELIEST MUHREEN he should get a rerollable 2+/2++ save (BLUD ANGELS are the ARTIFICIEST too), cause ID with every attack, Str 10, counts as striking at I10, No armor or invul saves allowed. Also since everyone gets EW and FNP, Dante should get super EW where he gets back up each turn on a 2+, FNP of 2+ that cannot be removed by anything.

But he could still deepstrike mishap :(

Dante doesn't scatter silly.

 -Loki- wrote:

kb305 wrote:
power weapons should have never been nerfed in the first place.

at 15 points it was questionable if they were worth it in 5th. now that theyre only AP3. they are def not worth it. they are very gimp.

basically only grey knights needed their power weapons nerfed.

They were only questionable in 5th because the question was 'power fist or power weapon', not 'should I not take a power weapon at all?'. And that was only the case because the game was heavily meachanised. If you knew you'd be facing a lot of vehicles, it was power fists, because they could punch through a tank, if not, power weapon.

This wouldn't have changed at all in 6th either. Even with hull points apparently nerfing vehicles, you still see a lot of them. So you'd still simply be asking yourself - power fist or power weapon? Now different weapons have clear roles. You have your anti-MEQ (sword), anti-TEQ (axe), anti-horde (maul) and glass cannon (spear) power weapons. A hilarious by-product of the AP system is that the maul is better at anti-TEQ than the sword, despite having a worse AP.

Sure, the implementation was a bit wonky. Forcing it on weapon appearance (forcing people to mutilate nicely painted models to swap weapons), then flip flopping on certain weapons (hi demiklaives!) shows they didn't think it through completely. But it added a bit of needed variety to assault. Before, it was simply 'pick a power weapon and be better against everything except vehicles, or pick a power fist for slightly more points and be better against everything including vehicles'. Now it's actually a choice which way you go.

The big issue now is, as this thread points out, special characters with axes who were never meant to strike last or with swords who were meant to be anti-TEQ. They should have simply given their power weapons individual rules rather than lump them in with power weapon types.

not really. they werent worth taking in 5th either.

vanguard vets - maybe you would take 1 or 2, 15 points added to already expensive models is just too much. VVets suck over all. i would give the squad one Pfist and leave the rest with chainswords.

honour guards - lol no. plasma guns or melta guns please.

assault squad - pfist on sergeant. never power weapon.

devastators- chainsword on sergeant. giving him melee upgrades is a huge waste of points.

etc

power weapons are only good if they come included in a models price. at 15 points they are simply a rip off. even more so in 6th. 6th power weapons suck.

If you make a Character that doesn't scatter mishap you deserve to lose him.

There's always warp quake

Ahriman and Bjorn would like to join forces for once to say:

"Get off my lawn, whippersnapper."

Doubt Dante got to 1100+ years old by charging into every combat possible. He's got loads of other wargear that functions perfectly well. Seems like the proverbial mountain out of a molehill.

Personally a little more variety in weapons is partly what is drawing me back in, I quit when 3rd edition dumbed everything down and haven't played till very recently.

kb305 wrote:
power weapons should have never been nerfed in the first place.

at 15 points it was questionable if they were worth it in 5th. now that theyre only AP3. they are def not worth it. they are very gimp.

basically only grey knights needed their power weapons nerfed.

Uh...so being able to ignore armor on most everything on the table except a few units like termies is gimpy? Ummm...no...

Power weapons now have differences. They still work fine and now have more flavor based on their type. Get over it. It isn't the end of the world.

Skriker

 sudojoe wrote:

If you make a Character that doesn't scatter mishap you deserve to lose him.

There's always warp quake

Good Save Sudojoe

 sudojoe wrote:

If you make a Character that doesn't scatter mishap you deserve to lose him.

There's always warp quake

Exactly. If you make a Character that doesn't scatter mishap, you deserve to lose him.

 Skriker wrote:

kb305 wrote:
power weapons should have never been nerfed in the first place.

at 15 points it was questionable if they were worth it in 5th. now that theyre only AP3. they are def not worth it. they are very gimp.

basically only grey knights needed their power weapons nerfed.

Uh...so being able to ignore armor on most everything on the table except a few units like termies is gimpy? Ummm...no...

Power weapons now have differences. They still work fine and now have more flavor based on their type. Get over it. It isn't the end of the world.

Skriker

To be fair, nerfing something and then calling it "flavor" doesn't tend to go over well with most people, and for good reason.

There wasn't really a game balance reason to change powerweapons, and changing them through the core rules without changes to the army books where many units were built around the original 14 year old mechanic tends to cause issues, issues that GW lets roll on for years.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

kb305 wrote:
power weapons should have never been nerfed in the first place.

at 15 points it was questionable if they were worth it in 5th. now that theyre only AP3. they are def not worth it. they are very gimp.

basically only grey knights needed their power weapons nerfed.

Uh...so being able to ignore armor on most everything on the table except a few units like termies is gimpy? Ummm...no...

Power weapons now have differences. They still work fine and now have more flavor based on their type. Get over it. It isn't the end of the world.

Skriker

To be fair, nerfing something and then calling it "flavor" doesn't tend to go over well with most people, and for good reason.

There wasn't really a game balance reason to change powerweapons, and changing them through the core rules without changes to the army books where many units were built around the original 14 year old mechanic tends to cause issues, issues that GW lets roll on for years.

Sorry, but Power Weapons have been godly ever since 3rd edition. Notice how Terminators completely vanished from games within months of 3rd ed's release?! Who would be stupid enough to plonk down 200+ pts for 5 dudes who fall over to every single little IG Sergeant?!!
GW had to give Termies the 5++ save just so people would use them.
Then as 3rd turned into 4th, Power Weapons got moronically cheap for every Upgrade Character. Anything with a decent save was forced to avoid combat because your armour didn't matter. Marines went from being a 'jack-of-all-trades' to being nothing but a bunch of infiltrating Devastator squads! SW's/BT's/CSM's went to min/max monstrosities. GK's simply vanished altogether, and those Termies still sucked.

So now, we finally have ap values which not only bring some choice and advantages to different weapons, but 2+ saves are finally relevent again!
Alot of the people I've found who b about the supposed "NERF!1!!1!" to Power Weapons are just upset that they can no longer just throw a Sergeant and his ablative chumpies into Termies and make them vanish.
On the other hand, for the first time since the 5th ed Marine codex removed the double special weapons option, I'm finally seeing non-TH/SS termies on the field actually laying some hurt!