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I am a BA user, and had recently started using Dante to lead my troops. In studying the new rules however, I noticed 6th edition totally poops on half the BA leaders, especially Commander Dante. First off he is the one of the OLDEST living space marines, fluff wise, and yet he gets NO fancy weapon except for a pitiful power axe, of which drops his already Initiative 6 down to 1! And it can't even do anything fancy!!! What's the point of Initiative 6 if he can't even utilize it?!?! Now I am solely going off fluff here again for this, but he IS THE OLDEST SPACE MARINE LIVING and yet a simple power axe drops his Initiative to 1 and thus he SUCKS! 225 pts for a slow old man with a power axe that enables Sang guard as troops is totally not worth it. And it is extremely sad to see Dante gak on. SO...... My MAIN question is has anyone ever made improvised rules for a custom Dante or something of the sort?? Also does anyone else agree with my thoughts on 6th editions take on BA?

Actually, I would imagine a Sanguinary Guard army would fare quite well in 6th edition.

I believe you can still use I6 for things like initiative tests. You can also opt to not attack with the power axe and use a pistol/CCW instead. (I assume he has one)

Finally, there's a lot of going on I1 nowadays. He's in good company. Just don't assault anything that will be able to punk him first.

This is not a proposed rule.

Maybe the OP intended to propose something to allow Dante to use his weapon AND keep his high initiative?

Anyway... moving over to 40K General!

Given that he IS THE OLDEST SPACE MARINE LIVING, Initiative 1 sounds rather fluffy

/ducks

Oh look, another person moaning that their Power Axe strikes at I1 despite them now striking at S6. Have you considered the face that you can drop a unit of Sang Guard with 5 Infernus Pistols with pin-point accuracy (Dante being the most accurate Deep-Striker in *the entire game*), pretty much certainly spells doom for the Manticore/Railhead/Godhammer that's been hanging at the back causing you hassle.

Yep, Dante's slow. Make sure he's running around with another character or two to suck up challenges that you might be worried about. Unless you're running only sanguinary guard for troops there should be somewhere to stick the bugger. Failing that, use his jump pack to make sure he's not going to eat power fist.

Have you considered the face that you can drop a unit of Sang Guard with 5 Infernus Pistols with pin-point accuracy (Dante being the most accurate Deep-Striker in *the entire game*), pretty much certainly spells doom for the Manticore/Railhead/Godhammer that's been hanging at the back causing you hassle.

400 pts smoking a tank that costs a bit more then 200+ doesnt realy help him to be better. specialy that after the "smoking" of a tank he is in rapid fire range of an army and eats plasma .

Chaplains get S6 for half his cost and go at I order

 Greyguy13 wrote:
I am a BA user, and had recently started using Dante to lead my troops. In studying the new rules however, I noticed 6th edition totally poops on half the BA leaders, especially Commander Dante. First off he is the one of the OLDEST living space marines, fluff wise, and yet he gets NO fancy weapon except for a pitiful power axe, of which drops his already Initiative 6 down to 1! And it can't even do anything fancy!!! What's the point of Initiative 6 if he can't even utilize it?!?! Now I am solely going off fluff here again for this, but he IS THE OLDEST SPACE MARINE LIVING and yet a simple power axe drops his Initiative to 1 and thus he SUCKS! 225 pts for a slow old man with a power axe that enables Sang guard as troops is totally not worth it. And it is extremely sad to see Dante gak on. SO...... My MAIN question is has anyone ever made improvised rules for a custom Dante or something of the sort?? Also does anyone else agree with my thoughts on 6th editions take on BA?

Yeah Sanguinary guard as troops is Sooooooooo useless. How dare the uber-duber BA special character be stuck using the same rules for power axes as lesser mortals? It is an outrage!! Well not really, but obviously you think so. He has been around well nigh forever, which is why is statline is otherwise pretty potent. I always laugh when someone takes one tiny aspect of the rules and makes it into a crisis how now model X is completely useless because of this. I mean yeah he has a terrible ability shooting, wait no he doesn't. Only 1 wound...wait on he doesn't. Has lousy toughness, wait no he doesn't. Detecting a trend here? He is still a rock hard character and just because his melee weapon of choice has a slow initiative in no way makes him completely useless.

Of course you are always free to *not* include him in your force if it is such a big deal for you.

Here custom Dante Oldest Living Space Marine:

All stats: 10
Weapon: Power axe of awesomeness, Fights at Dante's real initiative and not at 1, and gives +10 to Str for damage causing purposes, and causes d10 wounds on any unsaved hit.
Armor: Artificer armor with built in conversion field so his regular armor is a 2+ save and 5+ unmodifiable just like termie armor without the limitations
Gun: Single hand plasma cannon that doesn't get hot, because he is just that cool.

How about that? Or you can just accept that having an initiative of 1 in only *part* of the game turn is not going to make him a completely useless figure as is.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Chaplains get S6 for half his cost and go at I order

Yeah and their statline is not as good overall, they don't make sanguinary guard into troops, etc, etc...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Greyguy13 wrote:
I am a BA user, and had recently started using Dante to lead my troops. In studying the new rules however, I noticed 6th edition totally poops on half the BA leaders, especially Commander Dante. First off he is the one of the OLDEST living space marines, fluff wise, and yet he gets NO fancy weapon except for a pitiful power axe, of which drops his already Initiative 6 down to 1! And it can't even do anything fancy!!! What's the point of Initiative 6 if he can't even utilize it?!?! Now I am solely going off fluff here again for this, but he IS THE OLDEST SPACE MARINE LIVING and yet a simple power axe drops his Initiative to 1 and thus he SUCKS! 225 pts for a slow old man with a power axe that enables Sang guard as troops is totally not worth it. And it is extremely sad to see Dante gak on. SO...... My MAIN question is has anyone ever made improvised rules for a custom Dante or something of the sort?? Also does anyone else agree with my thoughts on 6th editions take on BA?

Yeah Sanguinary guard as troops is Sooooooooo useless. How dare the uber-duber BA special character be stuck using the same rules for power axes as lesser mortals? It is an outrage!! Well not really, but obviously you think so. He has been around well nigh forever, which is why is statline is otherwise pretty potent. I always laugh when someone takes one tiny aspect of the rules and makes it into a crisis how now model X is completely useless because of this. I mean yeah he has a terrible ability shooting, wait no he doesn't. Only 1 wound...wait on he doesn't. Has lousy toughness, wait no he doesn't. Detecting a trend here? He is still a rock hard character and just because his melee weapon of choice has a slow initiative in no way makes him completely useless.

Of course you are always free to *not* include him in your force if it is such a big deal for you.

Here custom Dante Oldest Living Space Marine:

All stats: 10
Weapon: Power axe of awesomeness, Fights at Dante's real initiative and not at 1, and gives +10 to Str for damage causing purposes, and causes d10 wounds on any unsaved hit.
Armor: Artificer armor with built in conversion field so his regular armor is a 2+ save and 5+ unmodifiable just like termie armor without the limitations
Gun: Single hand plasma cannon that doesn't get hot, because he is just that cool.

How about that? Or you can just accept that having an initiative of 1 in only *part* of the game turn is not going to make him a completely useless figure as is.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Chaplains get S6 for half his cost and go at I order

Yeah and their statline is not as good overall, they don't make sanguinary guard into troops, etc, etc...

Skriker

Not good enough. He has to have a hand-held vulcan mega bolter or else he is still useless

 Skriker wrote:

 Greyguy13 wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Chaplains get S6 for half his cost and go at I order

Yeah and their statline is not as good overall, they don't make sanguinary guard into troops, etc, etc...

Skriker

Yeah, but I wasn't responding to people mentioning that as their point, I was responding to those who seem to think S 6 is some big rare deal

 Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Greyguy13 wrote:
I am a BA user, and had recently started using Dante to lead my troops. In studying the new rules however, I noticed 6th edition totally poops on half the BA leaders, especially Commander Dante. First off he is the one of the OLDEST living space marines, fluff wise, and yet he gets NO fancy weapon except for a pitiful power axe, of which drops his already Initiative 6 down to 1! And it can't even do anything fancy!!! What's the point of Initiative 6 if he can't even utilize it?!?! Now I am solely going off fluff here again for this, but he IS THE OLDEST SPACE MARINE LIVING and yet a simple power axe drops his Initiative to 1 and thus he SUCKS! 225 pts for a slow old man with a power axe that enables Sang guard as troops is totally not worth it. And it is extremely sad to see Dante gak on. SO...... My MAIN question is has anyone ever made improvised rules for a custom Dante or something of the sort?? Also does anyone else agree with my thoughts on 6th editions take on BA?

Yeah Sanguinary guard as troops is Sooooooooo useless. How dare the uber-duber BA special character be stuck using the same rules for power axes as lesser mortals? It is an outrage!! Well not really, but obviously you think so. He has been around well nigh forever, which is why is statline is otherwise pretty potent. I always laugh when someone takes one tiny aspect of the rules and makes it into a crisis how now model X is completely useless because of this. I mean yeah he has a terrible ability shooting, wait no he doesn't. Only 1 wound...wait on he doesn't. Has lousy toughness, wait no he doesn't. Detecting a trend here? He is still a rock hard character and just because his melee weapon of choice has a slow initiative in no way makes him completely useless.

Of course you are always free to *not* include him in your force if it is such a big deal for you.

Here custom Dante Oldest Living Space Marine:

All stats: 10
Weapon: Power axe of awesomeness, Fights at Dante's real initiative and not at 1, and gives +10 to Str for damage causing purposes, and causes d10 wounds on any unsaved hit.
Armor: Artificer armor with built in conversion field so his regular armor is a 2+ save and 5+ unmodifiable just like termie armor without the limitations
Gun: Single hand plasma cannon that doesn't get hot, because he is just that cool.

How about that? Or you can just accept that having an initiative of 1 in only *part* of the game turn is not going to make him a completely useless figure as is.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Chaplains get S6 for half his cost and go at I order

Yeah and their statline is not as good overall, they don't make sanguinary guard into troops, etc, etc...

Skriker

Not good enough. He has to have a hand-held vulcan mega bolter or else he is still useless

And place a Large Blast Templete where you intend to deep strike him in, all models under the template suffer a Str 10 AP1 Melta hit. Also Dante doesn't scatter when deep striking.

 NuclearMessiah wrote:

 Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Greyguy13 wrote:
I am a BA user, and had recently started using Dante to lead my troops. In studying the new rules however, I noticed 6th edition totally poops on half the BA leaders, especially Commander Dante. First off he is the one of the OLDEST living space marines, fluff wise, and yet he gets NO fancy weapon except for a pitiful power axe, of which drops his already Initiative 6 down to 1! And it can't even do anything fancy!!! What's the point of Initiative 6 if he can't even utilize it?!?! Now I am solely going off fluff here again for this, but he IS THE OLDEST SPACE MARINE LIVING and yet a simple power axe drops his Initiative to 1 and thus he SUCKS! 225 pts for a slow old man with a power axe that enables Sang guard as troops is totally not worth it. And it is extremely sad to see Dante gak on. SO...... My MAIN question is has anyone ever made improvised rules for a custom Dante or something of the sort?? Also does anyone else agree with my thoughts on 6th editions take on BA?

Yeah Sanguinary guard as troops is Sooooooooo useless. How dare the uber-duber BA special character be stuck using the same rules for power axes as lesser mortals? It is an outrage!! Well not really, but obviously you think so. He has been around well nigh forever, which is why is statline is otherwise pretty potent. I always laugh when someone takes one tiny aspect of the rules and makes it into a crisis how now model X is completely useless because of this. I mean yeah he has a terrible ability shooting, wait no he doesn't. Only 1 wound...wait on he doesn't. Has lousy toughness, wait no he doesn't. Detecting a trend here? He is still a rock hard character and just because his melee weapon of choice has a slow initiative in no way makes him completely useless.

Of course you are always free to *not* include him in your force if it is such a big deal for you.

Here custom Dante Oldest Living Space Marine:

All stats: 10
Weapon: Power axe of awesomeness, Fights at Dante's real initiative and not at 1, and gives +10 to Str for damage causing purposes, and causes d10 wounds on any unsaved hit.
Armor: Artificer armor with built in conversion field so his regular armor is a 2+ save and 5+ unmodifiable just like termie armor without the limitations
Gun: Single hand plasma cannon that doesn't get hot, because he is just that cool.

How about that? Or you can just accept that having an initiative of 1 in only *part* of the game turn is not going to make him a completely useless figure as is.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Chaplains get S6 for half his cost and go at I order

Yeah and their statline is not as good overall, they don't make sanguinary guard into troops, etc, etc...

Skriker

Not good enough. He has to have a hand-held vulcan mega bolter or else he is still useless

And place a Large Blast Templete where you intend to deep strike him in, all models under the template suffer a Str 10 AP1 Melta hit. Also Dante doesn't scatter when deep striking.

No, No, No! You place an apocalypse template down, all enemy models under it die instantly, all friendly models get all stats 10. No scatter

He has 2+/4++ save, possably with FnP.

If he didn't have such good saves you might have a point, but seeing as he has very good saves he is very likely to survive the higher inititive bumbs and then strike back with Str6 Ap2.


And Sang Guard are amazing. Your choice of any power weapon, axe, sword, maul, or lance that is Master Crafted. And they have 2+ armor.

A lucky SM sergeant with a power fist will hit at the same time as him, and has a decent chance of killing him outright

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A lucky SM sergeant with a power fist will hit at the same time as him, and has a decent chance of killing him outright

No, a PF sergeant has a horrible chance of killing Dante.

2 attacks(because Dante's unit charged) hit on 4s and wound on 2s. Then 4+ invulnerable.

.41 wounds caused to Dante.

Meanwhile Dante is almost garunteed to kill the sergeant.



And if you really don't want to risk Dante, have your Power Sword wielding Snag priest accept the challange. He should cut down the PF before it swings. 4 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, and no save. Average of 1.777 wounds caused.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A lucky SM sergeant with a power fist will hit at the same time as him, and has a decent chance of killing him outright

No, a PF sergeant has a horrible chance of killing Dante.

2 attacks(because Dante's unit charged) hit on 4s and wound on 2s. Then 4+ invulnerable.

.41 wounds caused to Dante.

Thy're also instant death. So a 41% chance to instant kill a 225 point charecter.

Make of that what you will.

 Testify wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A lucky SM sergeant with a power fist will hit at the same time as him, and has a decent chance of killing him outright

No, a PF sergeant has a horrible chance of killing Dante.

2 attacks(because Dante's unit charged) hit on 4s and wound on 2s. Then 4+ invulnerable.

.41 wounds caused to Dante.

Thy're also instant death. So a 41% chance to instant kill a 225 point charecter.

Make of that what you will.

He is an IC with 2+ LOS

 Testify wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A lucky SM sergeant with a power fist will hit at the same time as him, and has a decent chance of killing him outright

No, a PF sergeant has a horrible chance of killing Dante.

2 attacks(because Dante's unit charged) hit on 4s and wound on 2s. Then 4+ invulnerable.

.41 wounds caused to Dante.

Thy're also instant death. So a 41% chance to instant kill a 225 point charecter.

Make of that what you will.

Both sides have ID in their favor, kinda. Sergeants only have one wound anyway so the ID really doesn't matter much.


Then there's Dante's mask. I forget what that does, something nasty IIRC.

So half a page without anyone pointing out that Power Axes are only +1S, not +2?


I am disappoint.

Furious Charge

Mohoc wrote:
He is an IC with 2+ LOS

Not in a challenge he's not.

Grey Templar wrote:
Both sides have ID in their favor, kinda. Sergeants only have one wound anyway so the ID really doesn't matter much.


Then there's Dante's mask. I forget what that does, something nasty IIRC.

Dante's Mask lets you nerf an enemy independant charector. IIRC doesn't do anything in CC.

Ahhh, I thought it did something to models in Base contact. Or is that Sanguinary Guard Deathmasks?

 Testify wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
He is an IC with 2+ LOS

Not in a challenge he's not.

Grey Templar wrote:
Both sides have ID in their favor, kinda. Sergeants only have one wound anyway so the ID really doesn't matter much.


Then there's Dante's mask. I forget what that does, something nasty IIRC.

Dante's Mask lets you nerf an enemy independant charector. IIRC doesn't do anything in CC.

If you are so afraid of a challenge, take a priestwith a jump pack to take the challenge.

Grey Templar wrote:Ahhh, I thought it did something to models in Base contact. Or is that Sanguinary Guard Deathmasks?

His mask is a type of Sang Guard mask so yes, enemy has to make a Leadership check or be reduced to WS1.

Mohoc wrote:
If you are so afraid of a challenge, take a priestwith a jump pack to take the challenge.

Another 85 points for a bonus round of survivability. If you want

How about a scratch-build Dante with a Power Sword? I know I made my DE characters Scratch built and do not intend to change them if their official counterparts have different weapons.

I might be wrong but I think the death mask is a test and if failed the models in base contact get bumped to I1.

The death mask of Dante functions just like the death masks of the sanguinary guards, but it also does allow for the IC debuff.

Wow... the OP really needs to cut back on the Red Bulls...

Dante is fine. He is nasty. I have fought him many times in non-Sanguinary guard armies, and he is not fun to play against...