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 Vaktathi wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
the SM, and BA have totally different troops choices,

Yeah man, because there is no difference between Plague Marines Noise Marines. THEY'RE LIKE THE SAME UNIT-

Neither of them are troops choices...

Why is simple FoC organization all that matters in what deserves its own book? That seems like a fairly irrelevant .

On top of that historically have been troops and can be made troops in the current book.

Because it is not just "simple FoC" that matters. The BA have red thirst, C: SM does not.

BA have Stormravens, Sanguinary guard, Sanguinary priests, Elite Chaplains, Honor Guard with sanguinary noviates, I could go on, but you get the point yes?

 DeffDred wrote:
Hmmm... a seperate codex for each chaos god.... and then what.... a codex for each of the undivided legions?

So you'd all be fine with paying $400 for the rules to use your chaos army?

honestly I dont think there should be 4 different books for each and every god.

One suggestion I liked was splitting recent renegade or trators like huron away from the legions, making 2 books. Renegade CSM and Legion CSM

I could also see a cult book, a book that has rules for mono god lists, something where you have all nurgle or all noise marines. This could then be contrasted with the undivided CSM. So have Word Bearers, IW, Night Lords, Alpha and Black Legion in one book and have Death Guard, World Eaters, EC and Tsons in another book.

You could always ally in the other, they would be battle brothers.

If not that, CSM should at least be as long and varied as C:SM. C:SM has like 7 FA choices, and 10 special characters. It is by far the longest book and has the most options. CSM should be on par with C:SM if nothing else.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
the SM, and BA have totally different troops choices,

Yeah man, because there is no difference between Plague Marines Noise Marines. THEY'RE LIKE THE SAME UNIT-

Neither of them are troops choices...

Why is simple FoC organization all that matters in what deserves its own book? That seems like a fairly irrelevant .

On top of that historically have been troops and can be made troops in the current book.

Because it is not just "simple FoC" that matters. The BA have red thirst, C: SM does not.

BA have Stormravens, Sanguinary guard, Sanguinary priests, Elite Chaplains, Honor Guard with sanguinary noviates, I could go on, but you get the point yes?

Most of those things weren't there till 5th edition, when they had to make some reason to continue on BA that didn't involve it as a supplement that just changed a few things, before that codex the only differences they had was partial wargear and one or two units. And then if there was one combined codex, you change a few things here and there so that everyone could be represented, not the lucky few that gained a codex when they were making supplements that stuck.

Also you could easily just say, Replace Combat Tactics with Blood thirst.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
the SM, and BA have totally different troops choices,

Yeah man, because there is no difference between Plague Marines Noise Marines. THEY'RE LIKE THE SAME UNIT-

Neither of them are troops choices...

Why is simple FoC organization all that matters in what deserves its own book? That seems like a fairly irrelevant .

On top of that historically have been troops and can be made troops in the current book.

Because it is not just "simple FoC" that matters. The BA have red thirst, C: SM does not.

BA have Stormravens, Sanguinary guard, Sanguinary priests, Elite Chaplains, Honor Guard with sanguinary noviates, I could go on, but you get the point yes?

and they didnt have any of them before they had their own codex.

people want jumppack bezerkers and noisemarines bikes, not raptors with MoK and bikes with MoS. 2nd and 3rd edtion BA had C:SM units with red thirst, it took many iterations to get to the point where you can consider them a real codex.

Personally, I wouldn't really care (well I don't really play CSM too much so...), but it would be cool maybe not as a full codex but as a supplement book to the main CSM book. A cheaper, smaller book that gives you options to play a specific legion or god.

Otherwise, the arguments here are fundamentally the same as to way the IG (which truly has some of them most varied fighting styles between Regiments I have seen yet. How you could really mix the Catachens, Mordian, and Cadian for instance in the same codex to represent them properly is a bit...odd. I know the DKoK got their own book but that was FW...) should get different codexes for some of the really bizarre and different regiments.

Found something in my older posts... copy pasta...

Codex: Adeptus Astartes

All units listed without a FOC.

IE:

Tactical Squad, Assault Squad, Devastator Squad, Bikes, Attack Bikes, Speeders (and all hull variants), Rhinos (and all hull variants), Raiders (and all hull variants),

Terminators, Captains, Chaplains, Librarians, Techmarines, Apothocaries, Veteran Squads, Dreadnoughts (and all hull variants).

That covers almost everything that any chapter can take.

Now the codex could be written with each of these units under a "standard codex units" entry.

The middle of the codex can then cover the Special Characters.

The codex special rules could include "Chapter Traits" which basically states which chapters use which units and where in the FOC they are delegated.

Under each listing there can be a list of "non-codex" units available to the army.

For example the Baal Predator would be in the main listing of units. However the only "Chapter Traits" system that allows it is the Blood Angels.

Alternatively the Death Company and the DC Dread, Sanguinary Guard, Furioso ect. would be in a breif entry under the "Blood Angels" heading.

I wouldn't want to see something like "You must take Dante to play Blood Angels" but rather something like "You must use the 'Blood Angel Chapter Traits' to include Dante/Baal Pred ect".

Clearly I'm in the "Space Marines need one book" camp. But let's face it, there isn't enough difference between codexs to merit a codex for each chapter (excluding GK who imho don't need a true codex).

That was my take on loyalists but it basically works the same for the traitors.

 DeffDred wrote:
Found something in my older posts... copy pasta...

Codex: Adeptus Astartes

All units listed without a FOC.

IE:

Tactical Squad, Assault Squad, Devastator Squad, Bikes, Attack Bikes, Speeders (and all hull variants), Rhinos (and all hull variants), Raiders (and all hull variants),

Terminators, Captains, Chaplains, Librarians, Techmarines, Apothocaries, Veteran Squads, Dreadnoughts (and all hull variants).

That covers almost everything that any chapter can take.

Now the codex could be written with each of these units under a "standard codex units" entry.

The middle of the codex can then cover the Special Characters.

The codex special rules could include "Chapter Traits" which basically states which chapters use which units and where in the FOC they are delegated.

Under each listing there can be a list of "non-codex" units available to the army.

For example the Baal Predator would be in the main listing of units. However the only "Chapter Traits" system that allows it is the Blood Angels.

Alternatively the Death Company and the DC Dread, Sanguinary Guard, Furioso ect. would be in a breif entry under the "Blood Angels" heading.

I wouldn't want to see something like "You must take Dante to play Blood Angels" but rather something like "You must use the 'Blood Angel Chapter Traits' to include Dante/Baal Pred ect".

Clearly I'm in the "Space Marines need one book" camp. But let's face it, there isn't enough difference between codexs to merit a codex for each chapter (excluding GK who imho don't need a true codex).

That was my take on loyalists but it basically works the same for the traitors.

The New Horus Heresy book does a fantastic job at having one overlying list and then a bunch of specific traits for playing specific legions. If this wasn't a game so devoted to Marines I'm sure we'd see something like it.

DeathReaper wrote:
Because it is not just "simple FoC" that matters. The BA have red thirst, C: SM does not.

Not hard to deal with, it's very simple special rule that is laid onto units identical to those in C:SM without any issue already...

BA have Stormravens, Sanguinary guard, Sanguinary priests, Elite Chaplains, Honor Guard with sanguinary noviates, I could go on, but you get the point yes?

Most of which are variants of existing units in some way (certainly no more radical than many changes units undergo between codex's within the same army) and all can be relatively easily added to a sublist with relatively little room or hassle required.

You can literally fit all of the rules for this stuff on a page or two, it does not need its own book. What'll take more room than anything is the characters, not the army-specific flavor there.

(not to mention a lot of that was pulled out of the authors *** from nowhere for the last BA codex and never existed or was substantially less exaggerated before that)

 Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:BA have Stormravens, Sanguinary guard, Sanguinary priests, Elite Chaplains, Honor Guard with sanguinary noviates, I could go on, but you get the point yes?

Most of which are variants of existing units in some way (certainly no more radical than many changes units undergo between codex's within the same army) and all can be relatively easily added to a sublist with relatively little room or hassle required.

You can literally fit all of the rules for this stuff on a page or two, it does not need its own book. What'll take more room than anything is the characters, not the army-specific flavor there.

(not to mention a lot of that was pulled out of the authors *** from nowhere for the last BA codex and never existed or was substantially less exaggerated before that)

Really, because I do not see anything like the Stormraven, or Sanguinary guard in the Space Marine Codex.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:BA have Stormravens, Sanguinary guard, Sanguinary priests, Elite Chaplains, Honor Guard with sanguinary noviates, I could go on, but you get the point yes?

Most of which are variants of existing units in some way (certainly no more radical than many changes units undergo between codex's within the same army) and all can be relatively easily added to a sublist with relatively little room or hassle required.

You can literally fit all of the rules for this stuff on a page or two, it does not need its own book. What'll take more room than anything is the characters, not the army-specific flavor there.

(not to mention a lot of that was pulled out of the authors *** from nowhere for the last BA codex and never existed or was substantially less exaggerated before that)

Really, because I do not see anything like the Stormraven, or Sanguinary guard in the Space Marine Codex. (Or Fast rhino's and razorbacks).

I said most, not all, but please, don't make a simple USR slap-on to ubiquitous vehicles out to be something truly unique or hard to implement.

Sanguinary guard aren't really all that "unique" outside of look, it's a power weapon wielding 2+sv jump marine with 2 attacks fundamentally, not exactly a complex entry on their own or simple modification from a Sternguard/Honor Guard/etc unit entry. In fact they all are kinda the same thing doing the same thing in different FoC slots, a forced addition for their own sake.

The Stormraven is the only really somewhat unique thing as long as you don't try to compare it to a stripped down LR Crusader with wings.

I don't think they need separate books but it would have been nice if they made the current codex a lil bit more like the current space marine like how a captain on a bike makes bikes troops and maybe more special characters giving army wide special rules like Vulcan and his twin linked melta flamer rule. And some new characters would have been nice like a special character iron warriors worpsmith of night lords raptor lord... oh well it's done now. .. maybe in 10 years when we get our next codex

 Vaktathi wrote:
I said most, not all, but please, don't make a simple USR slap-on to ubiquitous vehicles out to be something truly unique or hard to implement.

Sanguinary guard aren't really all that "unique" outside of look, it's a power weapon wielding 2+sv jump marine with 2 attacks fundamentally, not exactly a complex entry on their own or simple modification from a Sternguard/Honor Guard/etc unit entry. In fact they all are kinda the same thing doing the same thing in different FoC slots, a forced addition for their own sake.

The Stormraven is the only really somewhat unique thing as long as you don't try to compare it to a stripped down LR Crusader with wings.

Sanguinary guard are unique. Their bolters are Assault 2 but have range issues, their master crafted Glaive Encarmine's, 2+ save, Jump packs, Descent of Angels, Death masks can get Infernus pistols...

Death company, Death Company Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons, Furioso Librarians... Yea those units are very similar to units in the SM Codex...

Do not forget that BA had Stormravens before any other codex, and well before the Stormtalon came out.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Any one specific codex would be too limiting.

There is not enough divergence to warrant multiple codexes.

So no, I do not think individual codexes are needed.

Obvious troll is obvious.

 Exergy wrote:
sadly the chaos codex still feels like a jumbled together circus. You can have a few different colored very different play style units with no unity or coheaseon. The really could have split the book up into a few different codexes.

I have the solution: give the DG, TS, WE and EC all the same rules. They're all Chaos Space Marines aren't they? So the WE like to fight a little bit more and the TS like to shoot a little bit more. Put that in the fluff section. No need for different rules. Just paint them different colors and you're good to go. I mean it's not like they have big glaring differences like DEATHWING ASSUALT (how could you possibly have one set of rules cover terminators with DEATHWING ASSAULT and terminators without DEATHWING ASSAULT in the same codex?!?! IT JUST WOULDN'T FIT!!! DO YOU WANT THE CODEX TO BE 1000 PGS LONG AND COST $100000000000000000000000000000000?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?! WELL?! DO YOU?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!!)

See, I can troll too.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I said most, not all, but please, don't make a simple USR slap-on to ubiquitous vehicles out to be something truly unique or hard to implement.

Sanguinary guard aren't really all that "unique" outside of look, it's a power weapon wielding 2+sv jump marine with 2 attacks fundamentally, not exactly a complex entry on their own or simple modification from a Sternguard/Honor Guard/etc unit entry. In fact they all are kinda the same thing doing the same thing in different FoC slots, a forced addition for their own sake.

The Stormraven is the only really somewhat unique thing as long as you don't try to compare it to a stripped down LR Crusader with wings.

Sanguinary guard are unique. Their bolters are Assault 2 but have range issues, their master crafted Glaive Encarmine's, 2+ save, Jump packs, Descent of Angels, Death masks can get Infernus pistols...

Death company, Death Company Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons, Furioso Librarians... Yea those units are very similar to units in the SM Codex...

Do not forget that BA had Stormravens before any other codex, and well before the Stormtalon came out.

Tack on some special rules and you are go really.

Take "Veteran Space Marines"

Take "BA" (Special character, rules)

Can take instead X wargear style.

Done, same for the rest.

Take VENERABLE DREADNOUGHT.

Take BA whatever

X wargear option.

Done.

Or do it like the HH supplement, you take X, you can gain X, but not Y.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sanguinary guard are unique. Their bolters are Assault 2 but have range issues, their master crafted Glaive Encarmine's, 2+ save, Jump packs, Descent of Angels, Death masks can get Infernus pistols...

Death company, Death Company Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons, Furioso Librarians... Yea those units are very similar to units in the SM Codex...

Do not forget that BA had Stormravens before any other codex, and well before the Stormtalon came out.

Okay, let me just pare this down for you.

Sanguinary Guard are Vanguard Veterans with cut-down Storm Bolters, Artificer Armour and two-handed power weapons. Once you make Inferno Pistols an option for regular squads in one army, you may as well let anyone take them.

So, lets put a new unit in the next Codex: Space Marines. Call them Honour Guard, and give them a Special Skills option like Guard Stormtroopers. Say, for example... "Sanguinary Guard: The unit rolls 1 die for deep strike" as one option, "Defenders of Ultramar: The unit Hates Tyranids" as a second, and "Ravenborn: The unit may take Sniper Rifles" as a random third. Then go to their Equipment, and say, "Well, ok. They get Artificer Armour, a Jump Pack, a Bolt Pistol, a Power Weapon and Frag and Krak grenades to start off with. Lets give them a more-dakka option.. hm. Storm Bolters, but make them cut-down so they can be fired gauntlet style without looking like Grey Knights... how does -6" range to become Assault 2 sound? Sure, lets call it 3 points. Special weapons.. well, Seraphim get melta pistols and flamer pistols, so lets give them those and plasma, then how about a melee option? Sure, how about Relic Blades for 5 points each? They already have Power Weapons after all, shouldn't make it too expensive."

Death Company are pretty unique, I guess. Blood Angels are the only ones who get anything like them. So, awesome. That's a unique trait. We'll fold it into the BA special character as a benefit. So, if they take Tycho, he gets a special rule... lesssee. "Death Company Captain: One Tactical Squad in the army may be upgraded with the Fearless and Feel no Pain Special Rules for free. This unit may buy as many additional Marines as it likes, ignoring the maximum squad size of 10, and may take options from the Assault Marine entry." There, sorted! As for Death Company Dreadnoughts, they're a dumb idea and can be safely left on the wayside. There are enough dreadnought options as it is. Oh, better give him the BA Chapter Tactics rule as well... mmh... "Red Thirst: Squads in an army led by Tycho (Or Dante, because he makes a good, iconic 2nd Blood angels character) exchange Combat Tactics for the Red Thirst. Models with the Red Thirst have Rage and Furious Charge."

Well, that just leaves us with Furioso Dreadnoughts, Furioso Librarians and the Stormraven.

Stormraven. Sorted. Just give it to everyone. The Codex: Space Marine players were all 100% convinced White Dwarf would give them access to it when the model came out anyway.

Furioso Dreadnoughts. Well, lets see... if we give Dreadnoughts Combat Tactics to represent their experience and wisdom in general, we could just make "May exchange Multi-melta for a DCCW with built-in meltagun for free" an option. Ooh, lets give them another weapon, Blood Talons! They're like Lightning Claws for Dreadnoughts, only they grant Sustained Assault! You know, Baharroth's old rule that we took out because it was getting silly-overpowered on a S3 model wiping out whole tactical squad a turn."

Furioso Librarians... well... why not? Just let any Dreadnought buy a couple of Mastery Levels and swap a DCCW for a Force Weapon. That works.. hm. 30 points per level? Sure, sounds about fair.

Wow. Uh, guys? I think I just condensed the important differences between C:BA and C:SM down into maybe.. lets see. An extra two pages for Honour Guard (fluff page + army list entry for a generic unit of awesome for everyone), an extra two and a half pages for Tycho, Dante and the Death Company (fluff pages for Tycho and Dante, and then both will fit on half a page in the army list entries), and extra 2 pages for the Storm Raven (fluff page + army list entry), and a whole extra quarter of a page to fit the extra Dreadnought options in with enough white space to make them easily legible. So, that's... 6.75 extra pages for the entirety of Codex: Blood Angels' unique differences, except the Lucius Engines and the Bhaal Predator, which, lets face it, could just be an Unlock on the part of Dante and freely selectable options for Predators respectively (kind of like how the Land Raider Crusader was folded in from Codex: Black Templars and the Land Speeder Typhoon was folded in from Codex: Dark Angels).

They can always cut away some of the extra Ultramarine characters to make room and turn Telion's powers into a standard upgrade for Captains ("Captain of the 10th Company, exchanges Power Armour for Carapace Armour, Bolter for a Heavy 2 Sniper Rifle, and upgrade Precision Shots to Eye of Vengeance for +25 points).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I said most, not all, but please, don't make a simple USR slap-on to ubiquitous vehicles out to be something truly unique or hard to implement.

Sanguinary guard aren't really all that "unique" outside of look, it's a power weapon wielding 2+sv jump marine with 2 attacks fundamentally, not exactly a complex entry on their own or simple modification from a Sternguard/Honor Guard/etc unit entry. In fact they all are kinda the same thing doing the same thing in different FoC slots, a forced addition for their own sake.

The Stormraven is the only really somewhat unique thing as long as you don't try to compare it to a stripped down LR Crusader with wings.

Sanguinary guard are unique. Their bolters are Assault 2 but have range issues, their master crafted Glaive Encarmine's, 2+ save, Jump packs, Descent of Angels, Death masks can get Infernus pistols...

Death company, Death Company Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons, Furioso Librarians... Yea those units are very similar to units in the SM Codex...

Do not forget that BA had Stormravens before any other codex, and well before the Stormtalon came out.

I hate to say it but I agree with Deathleaper. Look at it like this.

The Blood Angels have fast vehicles. Does the SM codex have fast vehicles? No! Furthermore, note that all Blood Angels are red and that their codex cover is different from Codex: Space marines.

Now tell me this, how are we supposed to fit 2 different covers onto a book? Impossible! Now, as mentioned before Blood Angels are red. There's no option for Red Marines in Codex: Space Marines. This is a glaring flaw, the only way to fix it is to keep the status quo.

i think gamers work shop should give codexes to each armys different sub factions dark gods should get there own separates would definitely make it feel a little less like marine hammer if every one has at least 2 codexes a race just use the same or simler modles/ conversion kits

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Tack on some special rules and you are go really.

Take "Veteran Space Marines"

Take "BA" (Special character, rules)

Can take instead X wargear style.

Done, same for the rest.

Take VENERABLE DREADNOUGHT.

Take BA whatever

X wargear option.

Done.

Or do it like the HH supplement, you take X, you can gain X, but not Y.

The same could be said of any basic marine really:

Assault marines are just tac marines with jump packs and swap the bolter for a CCW, but they seem to warrant two different entries in every codex. A Dev squad is just a tac squad with different wargear...

What is your point?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Tack on some special rules and you are go really.

Take "Veteran Space Marines"

Take "BA" (Special character, rules)

Can take instead X wargear style.

Done, same for the rest.

Take VENERABLE DREADNOUGHT.

Take BA whatever

X wargear option.

Done.

Or do it like the HH supplement, you take X, you can gain X, but not Y.

The same could be said of any basic marine really:

Assault marines are just tac marines with jump packs and swap the bolter for a CCW, but they seem to warrant two different entries in every codex. A Dev squad is just a tac squad with different wargear...

What is your point?

Those are different units. A BA tac marine is the exact same, except with combat tactics swapped out.

You could easily make same units (Dreadnought + wargear = furiso) (Ven dread = Librarian dread) and just give them a different options.

All this nitpicking over whether unit X can or can't be duplicated in codex Y with a couple special rules is entirely missing the point. It doesn't matter whether a specific unit can be copied exactly, what matters is whether the feel of the army can be maintained. Who cares if BA assault squads have the exact same weapon options or not, the important part is that BA get assault marines as troops to represent their aggressive assault-focused nature, which is easily done by adding a special army-wide rule option to the basic marine codex. Once you accept that you don't have to make a 1:1 copy of every single existing unit you find that it would be very easy to combine most, if not all, of the marine armies into a single codex.

And of course DA could be replaced by one page in C:SM, while BT could be removed from the game entirely and nobody would notice.

DeathReaper wrote:

Sanguinary guard are unique. Their bolters are Assault 2 but have range issues, their master crafted Glaive Encarmine's, 2+ save, Jump packs, Descent of Angels, Death masks can get Infernus pistols...

Much of which is exactly the sort of thing that changes radically from codex edition to codex edition and is unlikely to remain the same in the next edition, we're talking details that aren't likely to remain intact across editions either way. Fundamentally, they've got assault bolters, powerweapons, 2+sv's, jump packs and access to melta pistols, and ultimately, they're beefier Vanguard Veterans.

Death company, Death Company Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons, Furioso Librarians... Yea those units are very similar to units in the SM Codex...

Why yes they are...they're all...DREADNOUGHTS! Gasp!

Take an Ironclad, swap out a couple weapons rules, and you have a Furioso. Give it an Ld value and access to psychic powers and voila...a furioso librarian. Hell, most of this is significantly less radical than between the 2E/3E/4E iterations of the Furioso and it's 5E incarnation, which before was simply a dread with a 2nd DCCW.

You're making tiny variants out to be unique units. No, dreadnought variants are not unique units, sorry but they aren't no matter how much you wish they were. They're the classic, age old dread with some special rules and a couple of weapon swap options tacked on, nothing more.

We're talking the same difference between a Hellhound and a Devildog or a Basilisk and a Manticore here, not a Leman Russ to a Dark Eldar Ravager. Stuff that can all sit in the same book.

Do not forget that BA had Stormravens before any other codex, and well before the Stormtalon came out.

I'm not, but what's your point? A single relatively unique unit isn't something that needs its own book, that's what White Dwarf and sublists are for. DA's also didn't have Vanguard or Sternguard veterans, AV13 dreads or any of the like until basic SM's had had them for 2 years, that doesn't make them somehow Ultramarines specific.

 Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Sanguinary guard are unique. Their bolters are Assault 2 but have range issues, their master crafted Glaive Encarmine's, 2+ save, Jump packs, Descent of Angels, Death masks can get Infernus pistols...

Much of which is exactly the sort of thing that changes radically from codex edition to codex edition and is unlikely to remain the same in the next edition, we're talking details that aren't likely to remain intact across editions either way. Fundamentally, they've got assault bolters, powerweapons, 2+sv's, jump packs and access to melta pistols, and ultimately, they're beefier Vanguard Veterans.

And, more importantly, how exactly do the details of the current rules capture the essence of the unit in such a way that any other rules would ruin the entire army? For example, how exactly would the "feel" of the unit change if it was give standard storm bolters instead, and why would this be unacceptable? Or, to be more extreme, how exactly would the unit concept of "most elite assault unit" be changed if it was replaced by a Vanguard squad that could take artificer armor if you also take the right special character?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


You realize they did start with the fluff, because in the original dex it was pure Ultramarines, up until the book "Angels of Darkness" That gave multiple loyalist chapters their own special rules, than they began to release various "Spin-off codex" that had at best one or two different looking models.

At least get your knowledge of history straight.

By "Angels of Darkness" you mean "Angels of Death"?

If I have my history straight, it would've been

1. Space Wolves (1994)
2. Ultramarines (1995)
3. Angels of Death (1996)

With 3rd Edition, they then created the first "generic " Codex Space Marines (1998), mainly do reflect the new rules set, followed closely by Codex Blood Angels (1998), Dark Angels (1999) and Space Wolves (2000). Of course, as you can see, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves all existed long before the idea of a "generic" Space Marines Codex was ever conceived.

2000 also saw the "event Codex Armageddon" with the first lists for Black Templars and Salamanders, which would arguably be the first "spin-offs"

I hope we're straight now? I honestly cannot really tell, as you don't even seem to know the names of the various books, which strikes me as a strange oversight for one out to correct and lecture people here.

You've got your history straight.

2nd ed codex releases

Copied from wikipedia

Codex ISBN Release Date
Sisters of Battle ISBN 1-872372-14-7 August 1997
*Assassins ISBN 1-872372-05-8 June 1997
Angels of Death (rules for both Dark Angels and Blood Angels) ISBN 1-872372-96-1 1996
Chaos 1996
Ultramarines (also covering other 'standard' Space Marine armies) 1995
Tyranids ISBN 1-872372-90-2 1995
Imperial Guard ISBN 1-872372-92-9 1995
Space Wolves ISBN 1-872372-71-6 1994
Orks ISBN 1-872372-76-7 1994
Eldar 1994

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Any one specific codex would be too limiting.

There is not enough divergence to warrant multiple codexes.

So no, I do not think individual codexes are needed.

Yes because there was a big enough difference between Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Marines, Black templar...

The differences between the chaos dex's are far more numerable alone compared to the loyalists.

Space Wolves has massive changes compared to the Normal Marines from chapter structure all the way to recruition and psychic powers.

My thoughts on this are
Space Marine Codex's
Can you imagine the fun trying to do a single elites choice when you have to combine all the options for sternguard, sanguinary guard and wolf guard?
And trying to cover ALL the loop holes so broken combinations aren't possible? either way, that would be one very confusing book.
Chaos Marine Codex's
It'd be nice to have enough units to do at least 4 separate 'god' codex's, but what we have is working. I'dve liked legion specific rules. If they decided to split it into different books, that be nice but it would hit me hard in the wallet - my army was built in 4th ed. I had for troops 1 of each cult troop choice. Now I've got to go out and buy more basic marines, because I still want to be a chaos undivided warband...

Personally, I'd like one core book, and one 'Chapters/Legions of Renown' book for both of them. It might mean buying two books for some people, but you could have a rules summary in the 'Renown' book so you wouldn't have to carry it around. It would reduce the time between special Marine factions getting updates, which for my money could only be a good thing.

 rockerbikie wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Any one specific codex would be too limiting.

There is not enough divergence to warrant multiple codexes.

So no, I do not think individual codexes are needed.

Yes because there was a big enough difference between Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Marines, Black templar...

The differences between the chaos dex's are far more numerable alone compared to the loyalists.

Space Wolves has massive changes compared to the Normal Marines from chapter structure all the way to recruition and psychic powers.

And, does this translate to massive changes on the tabletop? Could you not throw in a "Lore of Fenris" as a page for the second.

1. Space Wolves (1994)
2. Ultramarines (1995)
3. Angels of Death (1996)
I hope we're straight now? I honestly cannot really tell, as you don't even seem to know the names of the various books, which strikes me as a strange oversight for one out to correct and lecture people here.

Kept thinking Ultramarines was 2003... ah well. I was wrong on that, regardless of the fact most of them are still to much. IG is the closest to having multiple codexs due to forgeworlds love of them, and giving them DKOK and Elsyian drop troops.

I remember when rumors of new CSM were first going around, there was talk of a CSM Legions(the "big ones") and CSM Renegade(like Chaos warbands and stuff) codex seperately, why they didn't go that route is beyond me. Seems like it would have made this issue a whole lot simpler.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 rockerbikie wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Any one specific codex would be too limiting.

There is not enough divergence to warrant multiple codexes.

So no, I do not think individual codexes are needed.

Yes because there was a big enough difference between Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Marines, Black templar...

The differences between the chaos dex's are far more numerable alone compared to the loyalists.

Space Wolves has massive changes compared to the Normal Marines from chapter structure all the way to recruition and psychic powers.

And, does this translate to massive changes on the tabletop? Could you not throw in a "Lore of Fenris" as a page for the second.

1. Space Wolves (1994)
2. Ultramarines (1995)
3. Angels of Death (1996)
I hope we're straight now? I honestly cannot really tell, as you don't even seem to know the names of the various books, which strikes me as a strange oversight for one out to correct and lecture people here.

Kept thinking Ultramarines was 2003... ah well. I was wrong on that, regardless of the fact most of them are still to much. IG is the closest to having multiple codexs due to forgeworlds love of them, and giving them DKOK and Elsyian drop troops.

Actually, yes. The behaviour of Blood Claws and other characters including the Lone Wolf are really unique. From an aesthetic to a combat tactics point of view. If you want Khorne(a close combat army) to be seperated from the Undivided, the Space Wolves(Close Combat) should be seperated from the Space Marines.