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Why do people keep saying to buy a chimera for the meltavets and fireball PCS? You guys do realize they're riding in the vendettas right?

 Griddlelol wrote:
They fill the niché of actually being able to take forward objectives without being shot to pieces in one turn which guard can't do without slowly moving a blob forward.

Except we're talking about two 5-man squads in Razorbacks. That's two fragile tanks, and two squads that have a 3+ save but such a small squad size that they aren't much more durable than a 10-man veteran squad. That's a lot of points to spend on a pretty marginal ability.


Also, consider this: for the same 300 points you can get six lascannon Sabre guns. That's six TL LCs with "MC" stats, skyfire AND interceptor, and they're even scoring units. That adds a lot more to a gunline than some random MEQs.

I'm not disputing your points Peregrine and Ailaros. Both are valid, and I agree. The two 5 man squads don't add a lot, I was trying to point out that they are there for a reason.

The problem with Sabre guns (aside from the "fix it with forge world" argument that I dislike) is that they're static. Guard don't have a problem with holding their home objectives, especially with a Ld 10 ATSKNF 40man blob behind an aegis.

 Griddlelol wrote:
The problem with Sabre guns (aside from the "fix it with forge world" argument that I dislike) is that they're static. Guard don't have a problem with holding their home objectives, especially with a Ld 10 ATSKNF 40man blob behind an aegis.

Well yeah, but that's what a gunline army is about: maximum firepower per point, worry about moving and taking objectives once you've tabled your opponent.

 Peregrine wrote:

Also, consider this: for the same 300 points you can get six lascannon Sabre guns. That's six TL LCs with "MC" stats, skyfire AND interceptor, and they're even scoring units. That adds a lot more to a gunline than some random MEQs.

I agree, and ultimately this is the move for me.

I just have the misfortune of having a tournament on saturday, and thus am stuck fixing my list with solely GW stuff in the next two days.

But oh believe me, I'd be a fool to not get Sabres eventually; anyone that actually has a chance at using them would.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:


Except we're talking about two 5-man squads in Razorbacks. That's two fragile tanks, and two squads that have a 3+ save but such a small squad size that they aren't much more durable than a 10-man veteran squad. That's a lot of points to spend on a pretty marginal ability.

They're really not all that bad how I'm using them. I contemplated the 10 man squads in Drop pod thing, but the issue is that I have less flexibility as per when I use the mobility they have.

The LC Razorbacks sit back behind the aegis essentially plinking stuff until turn 4-5, then scoot up and dismount troops on close (but outside my Blob's range of safety) objectives. Unless my opponent has really seen through my strategy enough to consider two Razorbacks threatening enough to dump shots at, they can reliably survive until later; by then I would hope to have any serious AP3 weapons off the board. As long as that is the case, 5 marines (possibly screened by the razorback I'd ideally park in front of the objective) can hold any objectives on my table-half.

Sure, the same thing could be done with 10 man squads in rhinos, but then I lose that 3-4 turns of 2 TL Lascannon shooting.

(Still looking for help spending those last 150 points on some anti-tank )

Considering the Wolves are still being looked at as something of a tax; would anything from the SW codex make a viable enough addition for Marine Allies to make sense?

Triple-LC Predator maybe? Or those longfangs? A Whirlwind O.o ?

Peregrine wrote: that's what a gunline army is about: maximum firepower per point, worry about moving and taking objectives once you've tabled your opponent.

Exactly.

That's why I don't think what the captain really wants to run is a gunline. They do require a very different mentality from that of an air-cav player.

Because, honestly, if you don't have your HS slots filled, and filled so full that at least one of the choices is a squad of something, then you're not really doing much of a gunline. Likewise, stuff that starts out on the board killing stuff turn 1 should outnumber fliers by like 2 or 3 to one (if not moreso), rather than the other way around.

Deep striking BA would be better as allies and with jump packs retain more mobility after landing pretty much where you want them.

 TheCaptain wrote:
List looks a little different now;

Chimera Lascannon CCS

Flamer PCS (Valkyrie)

Lascannon/Plasmagun 40 man blob

Meltavets (Valkyrie)

2 Rocketpod Valks

Rune Priest (no termie armor)

2x Melta Grey Hunters in LC Razorbacks

Manticore

Vulture w/ TL Punishers

ADL with Quad gun

I'd have to agree with Ailaros, for a "gunline" list, this isn't that scary, even with 150 extra points. My 1750 list that I am taking to a local tournament just for fun in a few day, has 2 CCSs with MoOs, a manticore, a LRBT, an Ord battery with basilisk and colossus, and marbo, plus a bunch of normal IG stuff (vendetta melta vets with demo, PCS melta in chimera, vulture, ect). That is 6-8 large blasts per turn for the first four turns that slaughter your blob and allies, and even if you get first turn, good luck killing more than maybe 2-3 of those templates. DoA BA would likely give you fits as well, the list as is is just too unfocused

Shivan Reaper wrote:


I'd have to agree with Ailaros, for a "gunline" list, this isn't that scary, even with 150 extra points. My 1750 list that I am taking to a local tournament just for fun in a few day, has 2 CCSs with MoOs, a manticore, a LRBT, an Ord battery with basilisk and colossus, and marbo, plus a bunch of normal IG stuff (vendetta melta vets with demo, PCS melta in chimera, vulture, ect). That is 6-8 large blasts per turn for the first four turns that slaughter your blob and allies, and even if you get first turn, good luck killing more than maybe 2-3 of those templates. DoA BA would likely give you fits as well, the list as is is just too unfocused

Uh...

"My list would smoke yours" isn't exactly sound advice.

 TheCaptain wrote:
I just have the misfortune of having a tournament on saturday, and thus am stuck fixing my list with solely GW stuff in the next two days.

In that case I'm not sure what to say then. If you're stuck with limited ability to change your list I'm not sure how you can make the best of that combination, and you might just have to take what you've got and hope for the best this weekend, then focus on building a real gunline army for the next round.

The LC Razorbacks sit back behind the aegis essentially plinking stuff until turn 4-5, then scoot up and dismount troops on close (but outside my Blob's range of safety) objectives. Unless my opponent has really seen through my strategy enough to consider two Razorbacks threatening enough to dump shots at, they can reliably survive until later; by then I would hope to have any serious AP3 weapons off the board. As long as that is the case, 5 marines (possibly screened by the razorback I'd ideally park in front of the objective) can hold any objectives on my table-half.

But if you're waiting that long to do anything with the units that's a huge point sink for the early turns, then late in the game once all the major threats are dead they aren't really much better than just throwing a random IG unit in a Chimera and driving over to claim the objective.

And it's not just AP 3 weapons you have to worry about, with such small squad sizes pretty much anything will kill them. Against even basic bolters T4/3+ isn't really much better than T3 with a 5+ cover save and twice the models in the squad.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Deep striking BA would be better as allies and with jump packs retain more mobility after landing pretty much where you want them.

Yeah, but the problem is he wants SW for the psychic defense, and BA can't do that.

(Of course then the question is whether it's worth paying the allies tax to get psychic defense, or if you'd be better off just getting more shooting units and ignoring the losses from psychic powers.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
I just have the misfortune of having a tournament on saturday, and thus am stuck fixing my list with solely GW stuff in the next two days.

In that case I'm not sure what to say then. If you're stuck with limited ability to change your list I'm not sure how you can make the best of that combination, and you might just have to take what you've got and hope for the best this weekend, then focus on building a real gunline army for the next round.

Fair; though there really is nothing GW has to offer that could offer a reasonable augmentation?

 TheCaptain wrote:
Fair; though there really is nothing GW has to offer that could offer a reasonable augmentation?

There is, but can you buy and build (and paint?) an entire second platoon to replace the SW allies? Can you get multiple artillery tanks? Etc.

Peregrine wrote:Of course then the question is whether it's worth paying the allies tax to get psychic defense, or if you'd be better off just getting more shooting units and ignoring the losses from psychic powers.

And the answer to this question is likely no.

Anyways, captain, how about I give this as an example? It's a proper gunline, but it also has some of your vendettas still in it.

CCS, 4x plasma, plasma pistol
- chimera

Vets, 3xmelta
- chimera

PCS, 4x flamers
- chimera
PIS, autocannon, flamer
- chimera
PIS, autocannon, flamer
- chimera
SWS, flamer, 2x melta
SWS, flamer, 2x melta

Vendetta
Vendetta

Medusa
Manticore
2x Hydras

... at 1500 points.

With lots of stuff in the HS slots and a bunch of firepower from the chimeras and vendettas, you've got some serious long-range punch. Of course, this list came from 5th ed when those SWSs could start out riding in the vendettas, but you get the general gist here.

If you took a list like this, and made the leap up to 1850 be ditching the manticore for a second medusa and a 3x battery of basilisks, or perhaps some stormtroopers or something if you're looking for more mobility.

In any case, this is going to be much more the direction you're going to want to go in if you're going to want to play gunline guard.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Shivan Reaper wrote:


I'd have to agree with Ailaros, for a "gunline" list, this isn't that scary, even with 150 extra points. My 1750 list that I am taking to a local tournament just for fun in a few day, has 2 CCSs with MoOs, a manticore, a LRBT, an Ord battery with basilisk and colossus, and marbo, plus a bunch of normal IG stuff (vendetta melta vets with demo, PCS melta in chimera, vulture, ect). That is 6-8 large blasts per turn for the first four turns that slaughter your blob and allies, and even if you get first turn, good luck killing more than maybe 2-3 of those templates. DoA BA would likely give you fits as well, the list as is is just too unfocused

Uh...

"My list would smoke yours" isn't exactly sound advice.

If you read the end of it, I am saying the same as some of the others, instead of trying to do so many things with the list, focus it more on one or two. Want to do a gunline? Drop most of the allies and get more arty and tanks. Want to do cav? Add in more ways to outmaneuver your opponents, or be annoying and add the character that lets you outflank a platoon. Currently, the list looks like it is trying to do too many things half-***ed, and therefore failing at all of them.

Captain, scratchbuild some Lascannon Sabres and pray that's enough to save your awful list on Saturday!

Ok ok guys, you got me

People keep saying "SW tax" but if you take the correct units there isn't much of a tax. Give up on the razors, and make your detachment look like this:

RP
GH x 10 w/ MGs, DP, Banner
LFs with ML

Then start playing with those points. I've come to the conclusion that the DP GHs are a must, as getting to those far edge objectives is difficult for Foot. And always find the points for Marbo.

So the updated list massacred

 TheCaptain wrote:
So the updated list massacred

Which was...

 Griddlelol wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
So the updated list massacred

Which was...

Chimera Lascannon CCS

Flamer PCS (Valkyrie)

Lascannon/Plasmagun 40 man blob

2xLC Sabre Platforms

Meltavets (Valkyrie)

2 Rocketpod Valks

Rune Priest (no termie armor)

2x Melta Grey Hunters in LC Razorbacks

Manticore

Vulture w/ TL Punishers

ADL with Quad gun

The sabres, Vulture, and Manticore were studs, and the Rune priest was vital.

I think the 2xGH's in LasBacks were decent, but am toying with just making it 1 10 man squad in a rhino so that I can squeeze some AP3 in.

Like I said though; the Sabres were excellent, and I suggest them to everyone; as was the Vulture. Killed a squad per turn usually, and chewed through AV10 too.

Great to hear it worked out. I love the look of the Vulture, both in tactics and the fact the model is stunning. I might have another look at the sabre platforms. I might have to splash out...on one of them.

ya know, I myself scratchbuilt it actually. Well, ghetto-scratch.

Bought a Heavy Weapon Squad box, and built two heavy bolter-tripods. Then I took four of the HWS lascannons (three from said box, and one I had sitting around in a bitsbox) shaved 'em down a bit, and glued one to each side of the heavy bolter on the tripod. So now it essentially looked like a heavy weapon tripod with twin linked lascannons. Cut up the gun-shield a bit so it would cover the front of the HB, glued the tripod forward on the Heavy Weapons base, and glued a nickel behind it.

Used an extra guardsman as crew (just sat his base on the nickel) and ran the TL-LC as the sabre.

The interceptor Lascannon was great, because I spent three rounds of the tournament against Chaos.

Needless to say, if I hadn't had interceptor-firing quadgun and sabres, Heldrakes would have done nasty stuff to my blob.

 TheCaptain wrote:
ya know, I myself scratchbuilt it actually. Well, ghetto-scratch.

Bought a Heavy Weapon Squad box, and built two heavy bolter-tripods. Then I took four of the HWS lascannons (three from said box, and one I had sitting around in a bitsbox) shaved 'em down a bit, and glued one to each side of the heavy bolter on the tripod. So now it essentially looked like a heavy weapon tripod with twin linked lascannons. Cut up the gun-shield a bit so it would cover the front of the HB, glued the tripod forward on the Heavy Weapons base, and glued a nickel behind it.

Used an extra guardsman as crew (just sat his base on the nickel) and ran the TL-LC as the sabre.

Well that's cool. Any chance of a photo?

.

For some reason I cannot see the attraction of sabre platforms. 60 points for a TL LC, AV10 all right, 2 crew?

Is it AV 10 or has it changed to the W2, T7 new direction?

You tell me
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/Impgupdate.pdf

 Blaggard wrote:
You tell me
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/Impgupdate.pdf

Those rules are obsolete. The rules for Sabre guns are found in IA:Aeronautica.

 Blaggard wrote:
For some reason I cannot see the attraction of sabre platforms. 60 points for a TL LC, AV10 all right, 2 crew?

They are t7, w2, SV3+ with Skyfire and Interceptor. There is the appeal.

I twas looking at old rules, as stated above. Interestin... might pick myself up that codex.

Did the points go up captain ? or can we use the outdated pdf still in that regard ?