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That's odd, considering that you ask us to define the most cost-effective cavalry in the game. What is the difference between "best" and "most cost-effective", Niaii?

I don't know what "moast snacks for the point" is supposed to mean.

Then go away from this thread Mike :-)

"moast snacks for the point"

Is there some sort of Halfing Cavalry I'm not aware of?

@Mike der Ritter: whether you believe in the Unified Theory or not, deciding which unit in the game is the best is a ton harder than deciding which unit in an army is best. And even that would be up for basically infinite debate.
But as I said, I'm willing to take a very vague, inaccurate, and most likely heavily biased crack at the question nonetheless. All I'm saying is that there are way more variables here than any of us could ever deal with (the equation to figure this out would probably occupy a couple of lecture-hall chalk boards), and that boiling it down to a few basic concepts would result in a very general sort of answer, but that it's the only way to get an answer at all. Agreed?

@Niiai: no need for that, now. It looks like several people don't quite understand what you're saying.

So, once again, I'm going to try to get this thread back on topic:

Overall, I'd say the point of cavalry is to deal out enough wounds/not take enough wounds to swing a battle in the favor of two sides of otherwise evenly matched infantry. That's what the Rule Book says, anyway.
So with that in mind, I think the most important aspect of cavalry is (beyond the base stats) the speed, maneuverability, and size of the unit. A smaller frontage and footprint seems vital.
The only wrench in this thought that comes to mind are Bretonian knights, with their Lance formation. Thoughts?

Hey don't forget khornejugs and demigryphs stomp...so IMO I'll have to agree with the new skull crushers, I saw em in action at my gw store for a "new chaos release bash" and with that banner they can take that gives them a ward save against everything in the shooting phase....ouch it's really hard to say who's meaner them or the bloodknights, but watching two khorne jugs out 3 make it across the table against two shaven players and an empire, those two khornaughts put alot of hurt on when they got there, n that's just in a 1500 point list, going up againt say 6-7 of those things with the potential of a hero or lord level chaos champ cruising around, that is going to be far from easy to take down, sure it's a points commitment but whatever that unit hits is going to vanish faster than most can admit lol

Also bloodknights are nasty, non greatweapons hitting at strength 7 is nothing to scoff at and is harder hitting than any other cav if I'm not mistaken....you might say they are "hard to bring back" buuuuut how many armies have that mean of cavalry that can be brought back at all lol...with a spell typically every caster in your army has and can realistically toss out with some ease

Cheers!
Mike


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also even at 3 wide with their knights knights Bret cav are still sitting at max frontage with 5 wide bloodknights or 3 wide juggers, who are monstrous therefore back ranks receive full attacks. Oh and both those evil army knights have higher init and higher weponskill...and attacks....and strength n toughness. Point cost they are cheaper but come on guys elite bs core, ya get what ya pay for

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
You would need to do all the math to find out. Take a relevant number of commonly seen units and pit them versus one, then the other cavalry. Winning gives a point, number of casualties caused and suffered gives or takes away points, and so on. Then you could come up with a quantifiable answer.

Building a little system gives a quantified answer, but that just leads into another round of subjective debate over that system.

I've got another conundrum to add in - say we could objectively prove that Marauder Horsemen and Chaos Knights were the most cost effective, point for point. But much of the role of cavalry is in flanking charges to support infantry units, and for the most part the main infantry units in a Chaos Warrior army don't need the help. Whereas in an Empire army the generally competent state troops can receive a huge boost from having some knights hit the flank of the enemy. And at the same time Black Knights and Blood Knights would look to perform that role even better given the quality of zombies and skeletons, except Crumble makes that a generally terrible idea.

So, basically, when the value of a unit of cavalry is determined so much by their position within an army list, what's the point in taking that unit out of it's list to compare it against other cavalry units?

Agreed.

Though, as I said, I think it's theoretically possible to come up with some serious math-vodoun to compare cavalry units without taking them out of their army.
I can't and won't ever be able to do it, and even if I did have a doctorate in the required fields, I wouldn't, 'cause it would probably take forever.

With all of that said, what are the armies that have a non-conventional role for their cavalry? I'm thinking...Ogre Kingdoms, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos. The infanty in these armies either doesn't need help, or you don't want to help them.

MFC get my vote. They are fast, and with the dragon hide banner go first, and they hit like a 20 ton Mack truck.

 DarthSpader wrote:
MFC get my vote. They are fast, and with the dragon hide banner go first, and they hit like a 20 ton Mack truck.

Except the Banner doesn't work like that till the second round of combat. You have to breath on the enemy to give them ASL, which you can't do till I2. So only the second round of combat has the enemy at ASL.

The shiny new Khorne cavalry are really awesome.

Mournfang Cav are pretty head to head with Necroplis Knights, In equal numbers who ever gets the charge wins.

I think the bottom line here has to be that skullcrushers are good at fighting and beating anything and everything that isn't a T8 monster or a steam tank (and even then~)
No other cavalry or monstrous cav in the game has that level of flexibility for those kinds of points.
Mournfang are 75pts tooled up;
Bloodknights are one wound and only ten points cheaper than SkCrl;
Demigryphs are T4 and have nowhere near the same number of attacks;
and Knights Errant are T3 and have no hope of taking on the kind of nasty that SkCr can (remember they're T5)
All of these other cavalry units are good, really good, but any situation or attack you can put them in to kill em, the Skullcrusher will either fare better or the same.

That said, knights errant are a close second simply cause you can get so many of them. I could even be convinced to change my mind, but probably not.

 Niiai wrote:
Then go away from this thread Mike :-)

Sorry Niiai, no magic wand for you.

Warpsolution wrote:
@Mike der Ritter: whether you believe in the Unified Theory or not, deciding which unit in the game is the best is a ton harder than deciding which unit in an army is best. And even that would be up for basically infinite debate.

Hmm. I said it is possible to make a pragmatic approximation under set conditions. Of course we could argue ad infinitum what those conditions should be but it's not harder to compare Skullcrushers with Demis vs the same opponent than it is to compare ICK and Demis versus the same opponent (and repeat the procedure against some other popular choices). I mean sure, there's always if's and when's but at the end of the day that's a moot point. I rarely have the option to chose between ICK, Blood Knights or Dark Riders anyways.

I also think it would be a good start to leave out MC.

@Niiai: no need for that, now. It looks like several people don't quite understand what you're saying.

He's asking "What is the moast cost efective cavalery in the game?" and saying "We are not looking for the moast cost efective cavelary in the game". I'm neither sure who "we" are nor what "they" are in fact looking for. Snacks?!?

I Know its been said, but Errants.

I'm going to throw a spanner in the works and say pretty much any fast cav chaff! I always take a unit of 5 glade riders in my wood elf army and while they never KILL their points back they certainly protect a portion of my army many times their own cost from some nasty enemy unit many, many times their cost! Last game they held up a horde of giant rats (60 with squeel, one of my regular opponent's favourite units when we play big games) preventing them from getting into any meaningful combat all game, picked off a rattling gun with bowfire and then when warp lightning fried 4 of them the last man suicide charged the (already wounded) warlock and finished him off, pretty dang heroic for a 130ish point unit I'd say!

Back to topic-as-intended though Errants are a good shout because of lance formation and low cost compared to other cav while still getting the basics you need (high strength charge, good armour) from cavalry. Perhaps they are getting a bret bonus of not paying a premium just to have SOME heavy cavalry, which I expect some other armies (eg Empire or anyone with cold one cavalry) probably are paying

You don't need complicated maths to get a rough idea of cost effectiveness, just consider how much face they are going to smash and whether you would be willing to stump up the required points for a reasonable unit size. If you take it any deeper than that (army synergy, specific roles etc.) then it doesn't matter what the unit is, only how you use it and that kinda renders the question moot.

I don't know much about orc boar boys but I've always thought they were cool, how do they stack up?

5 Goblin Wolf Riders w. Musc is ~ 60 points.

In an army desperate for chaff and redirectors, it doesn't get much better for cheaper than that.

Plus when the riders flee they don't cause panic in your expensive orc stuff!

Just to represent the Ladz...Orc Boar Boyz are now 20 pt per model in the latest book with shields and spears. When I compare them to Knights Errants, statistically they seem on par for the points (high Toughness and Str on charge with spears and tusker charge). Unless they encounter an ultra heavy cavalry unit head on or a flanking infantry unit, they are in good shape to crush a regular missile unit, or get a flank for the main infantry block. They make a good delivery unit for cheap generic orc characters.

Then again, you have to deal with Animosity, and their armor is not as good.

I like Dragon Princes. Two Attacks, ASF, and M8 plus access to magic items on the champion and the banner for 30pts each is pretty good.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I like Dragon Princes. Two Attacks, ASF, and M8 plus access to magic items on the champion and the banner for 30pts each is pretty good.

Dragon Princes aren't bad but at 30 pts and only strength and toughness 3 and no 1+ save they're kind of fragile and lacking in punch for their points. After the charge swinging away at strength 3 isn't going to strike fear in anything.

I think Black Knights have to take it. You can bring 5 of them back in a single spell. They're S4 T4 with killing blow and a nifty ignore terrain rule. With barding and lances they're considerably cheaper than Dragon Princes with a number of advantages. They get a banner of +1 to hit to make up for their weapon skill and they cause fear. For a model barely over 20 points that's something impressive. You can also use them without characters and take advantage of their ability to move right through terrain with ethereal steeds.

Especially looking at Blood Knights, which are exactly as hard to kill for over twice the points and come back 1 at a time not 5 at a time. Black Knights have enough bodies to disrupt on a flank charge too.

Killing Blow is what makes them impressive. Even if they were only Str3 it would be amazing. but Str4 with Killing Blow makes them useful after the charge.

Skull Crushers followed by Mournfangs and Knigth Errants

I think we should create a separate category for monstrous cav, mostly because they have the benefit of awesome stats and being a newer unit. However I would like to throw my vote in for pagasus knights, they have good stats and awesome mobility being fast, flying, monstrous cavalry