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 Random Dude wrote:
Do you support the morals of the Imperium? (Be honest we all know they are really Nazis)

In universe, yes. Also because they aren't real, please do not make the Nazi comparison. The Nazis are real, the Imperium is not. I think it's not unreasonable to find serious moral comparisons to the Nazis wrong because of that.

 Random Dude wrote:
Murdering millions each day to save one?

More like sacrificing millions to save billions.
The imperium deals in worlds and sectors, which not only have strategic importance and resources, but also people. The fate of one world is irrelevant compared to the fate of hundreds.
The life of some guardsman is meaningless compared to a city.

Is it horrible? Yes.
Is it inefficient? Yes.
Is it necessary? Yes.
Does it correspond with the rest of the setting? Yes
Is it a fictional universe, and as such we shouldn't get all wound up about it? Yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chromedog wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
Murdering millions each day to save one?

The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many, or the few.

In 40k, EVERYONE is grey. There is no good, there is nothing but pain. It's like an SF version of Eastenders.

I always thought of it being close to Lexx. Sure, there might have been some bad guys in that show, but the main characters aren't saints themselves, and the overall atmosphere is pretty dark (and hilarious! Great examples of dark humor in that show ^^)
Also, Divine Shadow = Evil Emperor of Mankind, crossed with a tyranid.

In the context of the setting - yes. The Imperium doesn't really have a choice. To quote Captain Iacton Qruze from the short story The Last Remembrancer: "It is the practicality of the situation we face...The survival of the truth we fought for makes demands that must be met...Survival or obliteration: that will be history's judgment on us...The future will have a price."

EDIT: IRL, the way the Imperium does things is certainly abhorrent, but I imagine that if we were put in a similar situation, we would be doing the same.

The Imperium is probably the best solution available at the moment in the galaxy, but it's only the best solution because of the actions of the Imperium itself, and for that reason I don't like it. The entire thing is a lie created by the actions of the Emperor and those who came after him and the few heroes it produces are sacrificed in wars that could have been avoided simply by not being raging xenophobes.

 Durza wrote:
The Imperium is probably the best solution available at the moment in the galaxy, but it's only the best solution because of the actions of the Imperium itself, and for that reason I don't like it. The entire thing is a lie created by the actions of the Emperor and those who came after him and the few heroes it produces are sacrificed in wars that could have been avoided simply by not being raging xenophobes.

Xenophobia was the result of events of the Age of Strife, and one the Emperor and his followers cannot be blamed for. True, isolated civilizations like the Interex and that fleet the Emperor's Children fought, co-existed with xenos, but most Humans at the time languished under xenos oppressors, or lived in fear of xenos marauders/enslavers.

It's a dystopian society that never evolved beyond religion, industrialism, and technology. Morality cannot possibly survive in such an environment.

I would like to point out that the Imperium is evil and fictional, and anyone who actually supports them with any seriousness should seriously be evaluated and undergo therapy. In relation to that, anyone who's "on the edge" and is thinking about the morality of the Imperium in a serious way like that should definitely stop, as it isn't good to be thinking that way.

of course, in the context of the 40k universe

One name: ARISTOTLE.

One phrase: HE DOESN"T LIKE 40K.

LMFAO, soooo hard.

I feel like you guys would like this series: http://youtu.be/kBdfcR-8hEY

The Imperium kind of operates on a utilitarian style of justice except it's really bleak.

KnuckleWolf wrote:
One name: ARISTOTLE.

One phrase: HE DOESN"T LIKE 40K.

LMFAO, soooo hard.

Context, please?

Morals?!
MORALS?!!?!
IN MY 40K?!
SONNIE! IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE 41ST MILLENNIUM THERE IS ONLY WARRRRRRRRRRR!!!

Ahem...that being said, they have a rather Ham-fisted approach to solving issues, very final, very hamfisted

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
I would like to point out that the Imperium is evil and fictional, and anyone who actually supports them with any seriousness should seriously be evaluated and undergo therapy. In relation to that, anyone who's "on the edge" and is thinking about the morality of the Imperium in a serious way like that should definitely stop, as it isn't good to be thinking that way.

Oh, the 'no violent games for kiddies, they get messed up' talk.

You should really look at what type of people are on these forums. Most are mature, and the people talking on here are mature. Anyway, I doubt a discussion on how a fictional empire operates in a time that has no relevance to ours can damage the personality of somebody. Part from Matt Ward.

Would you kill 1 person to save a thousand? I would. its all ratios. Killing a million but saving a billion is the same as killing one and saving a thousand.

Something needs to be said: good and evil, right and wrong, are all Human terms, meaningless in the context of the greater universe, made for our convenience. As such, what we view as 'good' or 'right' may not always be the same - after all, such concepts were made by Humans, and their definition could be changed by Humans as well. Ultimately, my point is that all this discussion is meaningless - with respect to our current civilization/mind-set/culture, the Imperium is an evil monstrosity, but in light of Mankind's situation in the setting, I would keep cheering these guys on to the end.

 chromedog wrote:
The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many, or the few.

The needs of the many are outweighed by the needs of Yuri

As for the OP, no. The Imperium needs to be purged if humanity is to survive. The corruption of Chaos has grown too powerful and is ingrained in even the most zealous and righteous. When Terra burns, only then can Chaos be extinguished.

Imperial morality/Ethics is more or less necessary for their survival, beyond fanatical worship of the God-Emperor or the disdain of innovation anyway.

In the Halo universe, the Gravemind (the one who controls all the Flood in the galaxy, very similar to the Tyranid Hive Mind) could be considered evil. But when his character was evaluated, it was shown that the Gravemind couldn't possibly understand why all the other races were fleeing from it. To the Gravemind, being assimilated by the Flood was a gift, a chance to become a part of something much greater than yourself, and the next step of evolution for the entire galaxy. It didn't do what it did with violent intent...that was just it's way of thinking. When defeated, he shows sadness, not anger. He seems to think that it is only natural to absorb all life in the universe.

Is the Gravemind evil? No, not really. It has good intentions. It wants to create a universe that works together as one.
But that doesn't really change the fact that he's an undead alien monster that wants to turn the whole galaxy into undead alien monsters.

But what if he was right? What if the Flood truly was the next step in evolution for the galaxy? Would you accept this? How do you know what's best for you, and what isn't? How can you say with any definition that the Gravemind is wrong in his pursuits? By that same regard, how can you say the Imperium is wrong? It's just their way of thinking. The difference between good and evil is just a point of view, really.

"I am a timeless chorus; join your voice with mine, and sing victory everlasting."
— Gravemind
"Do not be afraid... I am peace. I am salvation."
— Gravemind to Master Chief

Wait, is that a metaphor to the Imperium or to the Tau?

The pre-heresy yes, the 40k Imperium no.

Legion of Flame wrote:


Would you kill 1 person to save a thousand? I would. its all ratios. Killing a million but saving a billion is the same as killing one and saving a thousand.

The death of one is a tragedy. The death of millions - a statistic.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
I would like to point out that the Imperium is evil and fictional, and anyone who actually supports them with any seriousness should seriously be evaluated and undergo therapy. In relation to that, anyone who's "on the edge" and is thinking about the morality of the Imperium in a serious way like that should definitely stop, as it isn't good to be thinking that way.

You sound like a heretic.

I would like to point out that discussion about a fictional universe is just a fun mental playground, and anyone that thinks everyone's taking it seriously should likewise be evaluated and undergo therapy.

PS: *BLAM*

 chromedog wrote:

Legion of Flame wrote:


Would you kill 1 person to save a thousand? I would. its all ratios. Killing a million but saving a billion is the same as killing one and saving a thousand.

The death of one is a tragedy. The death of millions - a statistic.

That's only a statement on the media. It's an indication that in spite of his barbaric sociopathy, Joseph Stalin was more aware of what he's doing than the rest of the apathetic public who cannot be bothered to ponder (or perhaps cannot even really understand) the consequences of millions of people dying.

That said, there is a body of thought on people dying having a positive aspect which is explored by Thomas Malthus, and also I think a great source of study on this subject in historical terms is the Black Death rather than Soviet Russia, which is sort of universally regarded as kind of a dubious and ugly period in Russian history. The Black Plague in Europe in the 14th-15th centuries wiped out huge numbers of the peasantry, but those deaths led to the economic consequence of rising demand for human labor, therefore an increase in value of human capital which allowed greater numbers of people to gain access to a greater level of wealth than was otherwise attainable in the glutted feudalistic countryside. This was also a big factor in the changing relationship between serf and lord.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the theology of magical warp beings destroying your population without human sacrifice, but it does break down a number of philosophical or moral edifices that stand in the way of that discussion taking place.

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
The difference between good and evil is just a point of view, really.

I kinda agree - as I've posted before, concepts of good and evil, right and wrong, were all invented by us Humans for our own convenience, and since we define those concepts, we can change their definition as well. What is good/bad now, might not have been thus in the past, and might not be in the future, or in an alternate/fictional universe (which 40k falls under).

To me, if being as cruel and sick as the imperium is the only way to survive, its not even worth it. To me every soul is the same, why should 1000s die for one person, its not worth it to me no matter the cost

And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

 ENOZONE wrote:
And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

Like going back in time and killing Hitler before he became fuhrer and saving millions of lives? Yes please.

 ENOZONE wrote:
And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

Nope, because I can defienitly say that one person is more valuable alive then half of those millions,no sir of one dies we all should. That one soul has every right to live as a million others

 Riddick40k wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

Nope, because I can defienitly say that one person is more valuable alive then half of those millions,no sir of one dies we all should. That one soul has every right to live as a million others

We'll have to disagree on that. This may sound cruel and inhuman, but the good of the many supersedes the good of the one. If more people benefit than the number who do not benefit from a certain action, then said action (including killing others) is fully justified. Especially if the resulting greater benefits are long-term in nature.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

Nope, because I can defienitly say that one person is more valuable alive then half of those millions,no sir of one dies we all should. That one soul has every right to live as a million others

We'll have to disagree on that. This may sound cruel and inhuman, but the good of the many supersedes the good of the one. If more people benefit than the number who do not benefit from a certain action, then said action (including killing others) is fully justified. Especially if the resulting greater benefits are long-term in nature.

I guess we will just have to disagree on that

 Riddick40k wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

Nope, because I can defienitly say that one person is more valuable alive then half of those millions,no sir of one dies we all should. That one soul has every right to live as a million others

So wait, are you seriously so indignantly arrogant to claim that one life is more important than all those who might be saved from their sacrifice? You really want to take the stance that one soul is equally condemned as the millions that may be spared? That if not everyone can be saved, all should die? If you truly believe this, you have gone beyond the half sensible, semi-logical realm of grimdark and stepped into your own straightjacket of complete and irrational, narcissistic insanity.