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Their morality has adapted to the universe they live in.


Unpleasant, but perhaps necessary?

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If you think about it, the morals are really really really cruel.

BUT, compared to the horrors they have to face just to survive as a race...it's kind of needed. If they kept soft, they would long have been exterminated. It's cruel...but needed...

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Of course I don't support the Imperium in the context of the real world. In the context of 40K; heck yeah, I do. All the other factions are even worse. Bitter Emo Marines who are evil for the sake of being evil. Living machines intent on ridding the galaxy of biological life. Mutated cockroaches who eat everything to support their own biology. Those blue fish don't count, cos their faction is stupid. The only other faction I can get behind in the 40K universe are the Orks, who just wants to have fun. Only problem is that their idea of fun is stomping the biggest baddest mother frakker they can find.

 Random Dude wrote:
Murdering millions each day to save one?

Murdering millions each day, to save hundreds of billions. If not for the Emperor's psychic light, every human colonization across the galaxy will fall to xenos, traitors and heretics.

Needed cruelty for the situation they face.

I support.
Because unlike the Nazis propaganda from 30's and 40's Human race in 40k is really in desperate situation.
Everybody attacked us, nobody cared what happened to us so we told everyone to go to hell and we took up the crusade to claim the galaxy for ourselves.

I believe in the Emperor and in his Imperium. Even if that means killing millions of other people - such is the burden of the Righteous. Besides, this is 40k we are talking about - millions die so that Humanity may live. So who cares if million people dies when Mankind number in quadrillions.

No.

I support the morals of Chaos. FOR THE DARK GODS!

No. You're not meant to sympathize with the Imperium.

This is the big irony of 40k. Despite all the talk about "necessary evils", its very foundations are rooted in treason and heresy. Its efforts to ward off chaos through conspiracy, fanaticism, wanton destruction and the suffering of billions only make the Dark Gods stronger. As it stands now, it has deviated too far from the Emperor's original teachings to be anything but the tool that will bring about mankind's undoing.

The Imperium is ultimately destroying itself from within and driving mankind to a slow but certain doom.

^There we go, that's the whole dark-side of the Imperium.

The up side is that the Imperium is fascist to keep itself alive against the horrors, but it's dark-side is that it's the Imperium itself that is causing it's downfall.

Heck, the Imperium wouldn't even be in the situation it's in if Space Marines were never created

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
No. You're not meant to sympathize with the Imperium.

This is the big irony of 40k. Despite all the talk about "necessary evils", its very foundations are rooted in treason and heresy. Its efforts to ward off chaos through conspiracy, fanaticism, wanton destruction and the suffering of billions only make the Dark Gods stronger. As it stands now, it has deviated too far from the Emperor's original teachings to be anything but the tool that will bring about mankind's undoing.

The Imperium is ultimately destroying itself from within and driving mankind to a slow but certain doom.

/slowclap

The Emperor is gone. Daddy is out of the house. What would he say if he were to walk in on the Imperium today?

Hell, what would Roboute Guilliman say?

Definitely Not.
All will fall to chaos, so why delay and become unfavoured?
And why follow the Corpse God?

FOR THE DARK GODS!

In reference to our modern morals, the Imperium are about middle of the road on the scale of grey-black to black that is the morality of the 40k universe.

Better a 100,000 xenos burn than one human!

I don't think (aside from maybe the Tau) any races in 40k have "good" morals.

 washout77 wrote:
^There we go, that's the whole dark-side of the Imperium.

The up side is that the Imperium is fascist to keep itself alive against the horrors, but it's dark-side is that it's the Imperium itself that is causing it's downfall.

Heck, the Imperium wouldn't even be in the situation it's in if Space Marines were never created

Actually, the Imperium wouldn't exist without Space Marines. So its kind of misleading to say its the Space Marine's fault.

And its actually the various traitor Primarch's faults. Which actually is because the Emperor made a mistake in how he handled Lorgar's adoration.


The Imperium is not causing its own downfall. The extreme measures they undertake are the only reason they have survived for 10,000 years. They don't weaken them, that is happening because of external factors.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
^There we go, that's the whole dark-side of the Imperium.

The up side is that the Imperium is fascist to keep itself alive against the horrors, but it's dark-side is that it's the Imperium itself that is causing it's downfall.

Heck, the Imperium wouldn't even be in the situation it's in if Space Marines were never created

Actually, the Imperium wouldn't exist without Space Marines. So its kind of misleading to say its the Space Marine's fault.

And its actually the various traitor Primarch's faults. Which actually is because the Emperor made a mistake in how he handled Lorgar's adoration.


The Imperium is not causing its own downfall. The extreme measures they undertake are the only reason they have survived for 10,000 years. They don't weaken them, that is happening because of external factors.

Yes it is causing it's own downfall. The fascist regime keeps it alive temporarily, it can never be a permanent solution. In time the roof will come crashing down upon humanity, because no empire lasts forever. The Eldar empire lasted for 60 million years, and even they fell in the end.

 Marzillius wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
^There we go, that's the whole dark-side of the Imperium.

The up side is that the Imperium is fascist to keep itself alive against the horrors, but it's dark-side is that it's the Imperium itself that is causing it's downfall.

Heck, the Imperium wouldn't even be in the situation it's in if Space Marines were never created

Actually, the Imperium wouldn't exist without Space Marines. So its kind of misleading to say its the Space Marine's fault.

And its actually the various traitor Primarch's faults. Which actually is because the Emperor made a mistake in how he handled Lorgar's adoration.


The Imperium is not causing its own downfall. The extreme measures they undertake are the only reason they have survived for 10,000 years. They don't weaken them, that is happening because of external factors.

Yes it is causing it's own downfall. The fascist regime keeps it alive temporarily, it can never be a permanent solution. In time the roof will come crashing down upon humanity, because no empire lasts forever. The Eldar empire lasted for 60 million years, and even they fell in the end.

How is it causing its own downfall praytell?

Nope. Brought it on themselves.

There were human empires that were thriving and perfectly fine before the Emperor's great Crusade came knocking and brought them nothing but suffering with no end.

If the Imperium worked on stabilising itself instead of constantly trying to conquer other worlds and eliminate other races, it would find itself in a better position. It expanded too far and is now spread too thin to offer any hope of surviving to become the dominant race.
I guess you could also argue that had they taken a better stance on the Thousand Sons way of things, they would not be in the predicament they are. If they hadn't exterminated certain human empires and destroyed the knowledge they held, the fight against Chaos powers would be easier. A Human Webway could have been completed, etc.

 Grey Templar wrote:


How is it causing its own downfall praytell?

I think it's not so much that Imperial policies are causing the downfall of the Imperium, more that the downfall is inevitable no matter what. With the Chaos Gods literally feeding off human emotion, the only way to solve that problem is to destroy humanity. One could make the argument that the Imperium's oppressive policies are hastening that decline ("The more you tighten your grip, High Lords, the more star systems will slip through your fingers"), but overall there's no way out besides the Cabal's solution (and even that may not work).

 Random Dude wrote:
Murdering millions each day to save one?

The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many, or the few.

In 40k, EVERYONE is grey. There is no good, there is nothing but pain. It's like an SF version of Eastenders.

im more in line with the tau or kroot mind set minus the etherials i dont like that fluff wise of on the table top.

Absolutely.

Genocide/extinction is biggest threat a group can face and to defend against that nothing is off the table. This is what the Imperium of Man faces. They are surounded by dangerous enemies, who all want them dead and they have a serious internal problem of subversion by the forces of Chaos. Against such a dire threat the extreme waysof the Imperium are justified. Given the choice between having your species snuffed out and adopting an extreme system under which all internal and eternal opposition is crushed under an iron heel, the right answer is obviously the latter.

The amusing thing is that it apllies to the real world as well. It's not a pretty thing, and most would not admit it, but it's true. In the real world extreme situations require extreme solutions and the end often DOES justify the means. Despite all the high minded "I would be one of the resistance" rhetoric that many would engage in, the fact is that 99.9% of the people here would submit to the rule of an extremly totalitarian regieme such as the Imperium....mostly without complaint. A similar percentage would fight for such a system if conscripted and quite a few would do so on a volentary basis.* Hell, a good percentage of you would commit horrific attrocities if ordered to do so and given no other choice,

It's unfotunate, but it's true.

TR
*-Please no flood of European Dakka members who try to counter this by saying "No I wouldn't. After all I refused to comply with my country's national service system!". You only did so because the consequneces of refusal were fairly minor if they existed at all. In a system were draft resistance is met with severe, draconiam penalties conscritption resistance all but disapears. For example in South Afica during the Border War period those who refused to comply with the county's two year military service obligation of all White men were handed four year prison sentences. The result was that, although it never completely went away, draft resistamce all but dried up. And that was in a place were they were just giving out a few years of prison time. Imagine how little resistance would occur in a place were they executed draft dodgers...

 kwah wrote:
im more in line with the tau or kroot mind set minus the etherials i dont like that fluff wise of on the table top.

I disagree with that. The Tau mindset minus the Ethereals is no different from the humans. The Ethereal mindset is a strict caste system with heavy social conditioning. The evils therein (which are outside the scope of this thread) are what allow the Tau to exist in 40k without being too out of place.

In fact, the reason I like the Tau is that they demonstrate why the Imperium is the way it is. Why are the Tau able to live somewhat comfortable lives? Because they aren't fighting a hundred wars necessitating 16 hour workdays for all citizens just to meet production quotas for lasguns. Why do the Tau not execute people who step out of line? Because they can afford to not all be on exactly the same page. Why do the Tau embrace their technology instead of fearing it? Because they haven't lost all of the basics for it or had their tech rebel against them yet. Why do the Tau treat their soldiers as being valuable? Because the few wars they do fight don't necessitate massive numbers, thereby allowing them to invest more in their troops (thereby making those soldiers a valuable asset).

reaper with no name wrote:

 kwah wrote:
im more in line with the tau or kroot mind set minus the etherials i dont like that fluff wise of on the table top.

I disagree with that. The Tau mindset minus the Ethereals is no different from the humans. The Ethereal mindset is a strict caste system with heavy social conditioning. The evils therein (which are outside the scope of this thread) are what allow the Tau to exist in 40k without being too out of place.

In fact, the reason I like the Tau is that they demonstrate why the Imperium is the way it is. Why are the Tau able to live somewhat comfortable lives? Because they aren't fighting a hundred wars necessitating 16 hour workdays for all citizens just to meet production quotas for lasguns. Why do the Tau not execute people who step out of line? Because they can afford to not all be on exactly the same page. Why do the Tau embrace their technology instead of fearing it? Because they haven't lost all of the basics for it or had their tech rebel against them yet. Why do the Tau treat their soldiers as being valuable? Because the few wars they do fight don't necessitate massive numbers, thereby allowing them to invest more in their troops (thereby making those soldiers a valuable asset).

This isn't that true. The Tau have fought the Imperium twice on a massive scale (from their point of view) and have lost at least a third of their planets during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which is pretty intense for their small empire. Also their Third Sphere Expansion has conquered anywhere from 2 septs (a sept being from 1-8 inhabitable planets/ solar systems) to 20 septs (depending on your sources), aaand they've fought Tyranid Hive Fleets and destroyed them. This is a pretty huge undertaking for a tiny empire.

On the morals though:
I like the Imperiums, do or die, but not the way the take it literally.
The Tau are almost communist, but not quite and I get the impression they might limit you individual rights as well.
I like the Kroots mentality of "We must adapt as best as we can so we survive. If we don't change our ideas, views and morals, there is no hope. For stagnation is death." This is a quote from a BL book, but I don't remember which.

Kill a million to save a billion? I hate it, but it's needed in their world.

And whats entirely wrong with it?

I mean, its entirely logical.


You are on a submarine and there is a hull breech. You are at the hatch between the 2 sections. You must close the door or everyone will die. But your best friend is on the other side and injured.

Do attempt to save your friend or do you save everyone else?

The correct answer is you save everyone else. Your friend dies and that sucks, but everyone else would have died otherwise.

I went with yes. As people before me have said in the context of our world no. But in the context of the 40k universe its a necessary evil. I wouldnt really want to be part of it but I agree that they have to do something or the human race would go extinct. The only point that I would argue is that the Imperium should be more open to allies. We can no longer concur the galaxy on our own. We should ally with those willing and able to work towards a peaceful(ish) universe.

 Arcani wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:

 kwah wrote:
im more in line with the tau or kroot mind set minus the etherials i dont like that fluff wise of on the table top.

I disagree with that. The Tau mindset minus the Ethereals is no different from the humans. The Ethereal mindset is a strict caste system with heavy social conditioning. The evils therein (which are outside the scope of this thread) are what allow the Tau to exist in 40k without being too out of place.

In fact, the reason I like the Tau is that they demonstrate why the Imperium is the way it is. Why are the Tau able to live somewhat comfortable lives? Because they aren't fighting a hundred wars necessitating 16 hour workdays for all citizens just to meet production quotas for lasguns. Why do the Tau not execute people who step out of line? Because they can afford to not all be on exactly the same page. Why do the Tau embrace their technology instead of fearing it? Because they haven't lost all of the basics for it or had their tech rebel against them yet. Why do the Tau treat their soldiers as being valuable? Because the few wars they do fight don't necessitate massive numbers, thereby allowing them to invest more in their troops (thereby making those soldiers a valuable asset).

This isn't that true. The Tau have fought the Imperium twice on a massive scale (from their point of view) and have lost at least a third of their planets during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which is pretty intense for their small empire. Also their Third Sphere Expansion has conquered anywhere from 2 septs (a sept being from 1-8 inhabitable planets/ solar systems) to 20 septs (depending on your sources), aaand they've fought Tyranid Hive Fleets and destroyed them. This is a pretty huge undertaking for a tiny empire.

On the morals though:
I like the Imperiums, do or die, but not the way the take it literally.
The Tau are almost communist, but not quite and I get the impression they might limit you individual rights as well.
I like the Kroots mentality of "We must adapt as best as we can so we survive. If we don't change our ideas, views and morals, there is no hope. For stagnation is death." This is a quote from a BL book, but I don't remember which.

The Imperium faces threats the size of the Damocles Gulf Crusade every day.