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 ENOZONE wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

Nope, because I can defienitly say that one person is more valuable alive then half of those millions,no sir of one dies we all should. That one soul has every right to live as a million others

So wait, are you seriously so indignantly arrogant to claim that one life is more important than all those who might be saved from their sacrifice? You really want to take the stance that one soul is equally condemned as the millions that may be spared? That if not everyone can be saved, all should die? If you truly believe this, you have gone beyond the half sensible, semi-logical realm of grimdark and stepped into your own straightjacket of complete and irrational, narcissistic insanity.

Or he just has a pacifist mind-set. Calm down. No need to be offensive to other people.

 Riddick40k wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

Nope, because I can defienitly say that one person is more valuable alive then half of those millions,no sir of one dies we all should. That one soul has every right to live as a million others

And if a million die so that one person can keep a billion others alive?
The Imperium is built on the blood of martyrs.
They live in a universe where pretty much everything is willing to kill or enslave humanity.
The few perish so the many can live. It's not the best way to live but it is still life.
That's pretty much the Imperium in a nutshell...

 ENOZONE wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

Nope, because I can defienitly say that one person is more valuable alive then half of those millions,no sir of one dies we all should. That one soul has every right to live as a million others

So wait, are you seriously so indignantly arrogant to claim that one life is more important than all those who might be saved from their sacrifice? You really want to take the stance that one soul is equally condemned as the millions that may be spared? That if not everyone can be saved, all should die? If you truly believe this, you have gone beyond the half sensible, semi-logical realm of grimdark and stepped into your own straightjacket of complete and irrational, narcissistic insanity.

Yes I suppose I am, sorry to be that one guy who wouldn't take the life of an innocent person so others can live, it's not your right or anyone's right to take ones life no matter the cost. If that person sacrifices himself for others that's there own call but one should never be forced. If your intent is to save lives then why would you take another persons instead? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? No sir I don't agree at all with you

Wouldn't you have condemned those people to death by not killing that one person?

 Riddick40k wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
And if that one soul can save millions more that would certainly die without him, would you agree then?

Nope, because I can defienitly say that one person is more valuable alive then half of those millions,no sir of one dies we all should. That one soul has every right to live as a million others

So wait, are you seriously so indignantly arrogant to claim that one life is more important than all those who might be saved from their sacrifice? You really want to take the stance that one soul is equally condemned as the millions that may be spared? That if not everyone can be saved, all should die? If you truly believe this, you have gone beyond the half sensible, semi-logical realm of grimdark and stepped into your own straightjacket of complete and irrational, narcissistic insanity.

Yes I suppose I am, sorry to be that one guy who wouldn't take the life of an innocent person so others can live, it's not your right or anyone's right to take ones life no matter the cost. If that person sacrifices himself for others that's there own call but one should never be forced. If your intent is to save lives then why would you take another persons instead? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? No sir I don't agree at all with you

Let me ask this: assume for a moment you command a warship and you are escorting a fleet of ten refugee vessels. One is lagging behind, but a wolf-pack of submarines is closing in for the kill. If you go full speed, you can guarantee the safety not just of your ship, but also the nine transports that kept up, but the transport lagging behind would be lost. Or, you can refuse to sacrifice that one transport and wait for it to catch up or try to fight the wolf-pack, but while your ship's armor and weapons might let hold you them off, the other transports will probably be destroyed. What will it be?

There is, i think, a difference between allowing someone to die and killing them.
If there's a chance you can stop an enemy attack that could wipe out an entire city by destroying a village but there's no time to evacuate the people in the village. Would you take the action to destroy that village or would you allow the enemy to attack the city and destroy it killing far more people?

Well, if that was the case I'd either bow up the village while the enemy is inside, or blow the said enemy up with the weapons used to destroy the village instead...

My point is, if civilian casualties are unavoidable do you let everyone die (As Riddick40k says is the correct action) or do you sacrifice the few for the many? (Which most people will agree is the more logical choice)

later is the more logical.
Doesn't mean I support it, tough. If the imperium turned to chaos, or decided to become best buds with the Tau and Eldar, they'd be better off...

 purplefood wrote:
My point is, if civilian casualties are unavoidable do you let everyone die (As Riddick40k says is the correct action) or do you sacrifice the few for the many? (Which most people will agree is the more logical choice)

The latter, obviously.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
later is the more logical.
Doesn't mean I support it, tough. If the imperium turned to chaos, or decided to become best buds with the Tau and Eldar, they'd be better off...

That's still supporting the idea that the lives of the many outweigh the lives of the few. Billions, if not trillions would die if they turned away from the Emperor and adopted alien (or chaos) ideals to the hopeful long term benefit of mankind. Though if humanity were to turn to chaos I'm pretty sure i't be a death sentence.

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
In the Halo universe, the Gravemind (the one who controls all the Flood in the galaxy, very similar to the Tyranid Hive Mind) could be considered evil. But when his character was evaluated, it was shown that the Gravemind couldn't possibly understand why all the other races were fleeing from it. To the Gravemind, being assimilated by the Flood was a gift, a chance to become a part of something much greater than yourself, and the next step of evolution for the entire galaxy. It didn't do what it did with violent intent...that was just it's way of thinking. When defeated, he shows sadness, not anger. He seems to think that it is only natural to absorb all life in the universe.

Is the Gravemind evil? No, not really. It has good intentions. It wants to create a universe that works together as one.
But that doesn't really change the fact that he's an undead alien monster that wants to turn the whole galaxy into undead alien monsters.

But what if he was right? What if the Flood truly was the next step in evolution for the galaxy? Would you accept this? How do you know what's best for you, and what isn't? How can you say with any definition that the Gravemind is wrong in his pursuits? By that same regard, how can you say the Imperium is wrong? It's just their way of thinking. The difference between good and evil is just a point of view, really.

"I am a timeless chorus; join your voice with mine, and sing victory everlasting."
— Gravemind
"Do not be afraid... I am peace. I am salvation."
— Gravemind to Master Chief

While I agree with this in large part, his evil cackling laugh in Halo 3 kind of ruined a lot of the moral ambiguity....

I voted no. Even for fluff. They could just do a little diplomacy and teamwork and be on top of things but instead its kill everything and live with our primative (yet far too advanced for us to understand 10,000 years later O.o?) technology. They could work with Tau and have ships that traverse the warp without peril (so hey, no more wholesale slaughter of millions right) oh and railguns. Heck, even without diplomacy they could have reverse engineered the stuff, but seeing as how they can't do that with a rhino sitting in the garage for a few thousand years, you cant expect their best mechanics to figure out anything. They would be pretty bamf if they could just share tech with each other.

sorry, but while 40k fulfills my love of sci-fi tabletop on large scale, the human fluff is simply slowed. Of all the dystopian future scenarios, this one goes beyond my capacity to suspend disbelief. The Ork writing is pretty good, Tau and their Greater good have a sharp knife that isn't conveyed well in the books, but you can see it other places. Eldar are kinda meh (good fluff, but the whole premise is meh) DE aren't too bad, Chaos is pretty good, necrons new fluff is...different. But humans.....they aren't humans at all.

Sorry but humans tend to adapt and shift based on the problems they face. We need to kill millions just to keep the light on eh? lets fix that somehow. We question constantly. (are the Tau really our enemy compared to ALL THIS OTHER CRAP? and the Eldar aren't so bad if we actually just talked to them instead of shooting fracking first). We humans do hate, racism, homophobia, etc...but we do correct these things over time. and generally not all the population participates at once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:

Let me ask this: assume for a moment you command a warship and you are escorting a fleet of ten refugee vessels. One is lagging behind, but a wolf-pack of submarines is closing in for the kill. If you go full speed, you can guarantee the safety not just of your ship, but also the nine transports that kept up, but the transport lagging behind would be lost. Or, you can refuse to sacrifice that one transport and wait for it to catch up or try to fight the wolf-pack, but while your ship's armor and weapons might let hold you them off, the other transports will probably be destroyed. What will it be?

You tell the transports to speed ahead. radio for support and charge the subs. if your a solo ship on escort, you either have the firepower to repel the attack, or you have support closing in fast anyways. If you dont, you shouldnt be on the water to begin with as you are an idiot who didnt think about the welfare and safety of those you were escorting. Since historically you would use nearly a fleet to transport that much out of hostile waters, I dont see why your sailing solo to begin with.

Paitryn wrote:
I voted no. Even for fluff. They could just do a little diplomacy and teamwork and be on top of things but instead its kill everything and live with our primative (yet far too advanced for us to understand 10,000 years later O.o?) technology. They could work with Tau and have ships that traverse the warp without peril (so hey, no more wholesale slaughter of millions right) oh and railguns. Heck, even without diplomacy they could have reverse engineered the stuff, but seeing as how they can't do that with a rhino sitting in the garage for a few thousand years, you cant expect their best mechanics to figure out anything. They would be pretty bamf if they could just share tech with each other.

sorry, but while 40k fulfills my love of sci-fi tabletop on large scale, the human fluff is simply slowed. Of all the dystopian future scenarios, this one goes beyond my capacity to suspend disbelief. The Ork writing is pretty good, Tau and their Greater good have a sharp knife that isn't conveyed well in the books, but you can see it other places. Eldar are kinda meh (good fluff, but the whole premise is meh) DE aren't too bad, Chaos is pretty good, necrons new fluff is...different. But humans.....they aren't humans at all.

Sorry but humans tend to adapt and shift based on the problems they face. We need to kill millions just to keep the light on eh? lets fix that somehow. We question constantly. (are the Tau really our enemy compared to ALL THIS OTHER CRAP? and the Eldar aren't so bad if we actually just talked to them instead of shooting fracking first). We humans do hate, racism, homophobia, etc...but we do correct these things over time. and generally not all the population participates at once.

1) Tau warp drives SUCK. They are very slow and can't traverse the distances proper warp drives can.

2) The Imperium does have railguns, on their ships.

3) Mankind has been throughly traumatized by Technology, and Alien contact.

It dates back to the Dark Age when the sophisticated AIs called the Iron Men rebelled and almost wiped mankind from the Galaxy. The racial memory of that time has not faded and as such all technology is something to be feared, especially any technology approaching intelligence. Its the same reason people today have an irrational fear of the dark, or of some animals, it froms thousands of years of being a prey species. We are no longer a prey species but the lingering instincts still remain.

As for Aliens, thats a very rational thing to do. When you've spent 30,000 years encountering various aliens, you learn that most of them arn't friendly. And those that are friendly have nothing to offer you. Therefore, there is no logical reason to attempt peaceful contact with aliens. They carry disease, they are probably hostile, and if they have nothing useful why bother?

 Grey Templar wrote:

1) Tau warp drives SUCK. They are very slow and can't traverse the distances proper warp drives can.

2) The Imperium does have railguns, on their ships.

3) Mankind has been throughly traumatized by Technology, and Alien contact.

It dates back to the Dark Age when the sophisticated AIs called the Iron Men rebelled and almost wiped mankind from the Galaxy. The racial memory of that time has not faded and as such all technology is something to be feared, especially any technology approaching intelligence. Its the same reason people today have an irrational fear of the dark, or of some animals, it froms thousands of years of being a prey species. We are no longer a prey species but the lingering instincts still remain.

As for Aliens, thats a very rational thing to do. When you've spent 30,000 years encountering various aliens, you learn that most of them arn't friendly. And those that are friendly have nothing to offer you. Therefore, there is no logical reason to attempt peaceful contact with aliens. They carry disease, they are probably hostile, and if they have nothing useful why bother?

1. they do it slower, but still get there and safer. and you cant tell me the other is all that faster when you can easily be gone for 1000 years because the warp decided thats how its going to be. The tau method is a guaranteed rate, where as the direct route is a gamble in speed.

2. great, but That doesn't help them much unless every battle was in space....

3.) on the contrary, Techpriests revere it as a god and love technology, just not inquisitive enough to do more with it.

as for alien contact, xenophobia is pretty normal for humans. I will agree that it is a survival instinct. but after some 10,000 years of contact you get a feel for the who's ready to kill ya, and who needs your help more and wont admit it.

sorry i just cant agree that human fluff is remotely decent when compared to everything else. Maybe if this all happened within a few thousand years or so, but so much time removed it just seems rediculous. Compare it to our actual Dark ages and we were back to Roman era comforts in no time flat.

 Harriticus wrote:

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
In the Halo universe, the Gravemind (the one who controls all the Flood in the galaxy, very similar to the Tyranid Hive Mind) could be considered evil. But when his character was evaluated, it was shown that the Gravemind couldn't possibly understand why all the other races were fleeing from it. To the Gravemind, being assimilated by the Flood was a gift, a chance to become a part of something much greater than yourself, and the next step of evolution for the entire galaxy. It didn't do what it did with violent intent...that was just it's way of thinking. When defeated, he shows sadness, not anger. He seems to think that it is only natural to absorb all life in the universe.

Is the Gravemind evil? No, not really. It has good intentions. It wants to create a universe that works together as one.
But that doesn't really change the fact that he's an undead alien monster that wants to turn the whole galaxy into undead alien monsters.

But what if he was right? What if the Flood truly was the next step in evolution for the galaxy? Would you accept this? How do you know what's best for you, and what isn't? How can you say with any definition that the Gravemind is wrong in his pursuits? By that same regard, how can you say the Imperium is wrong? It's just their way of thinking. The difference between good and evil is just a point of view, really.

"I am a timeless chorus; join your voice with mine, and sing victory everlasting."
— Gravemind
"Do not be afraid... I am peace. I am salvation."
— Gravemind to Master Chief

While I agree with this in large part, his evil cackling laugh in Halo 3 kind of ruined a lot of the moral ambiguity....

The first Fallout game is a better example. The Master genuinely thought that making everyone into mutants was the best hope for humanity, and he didn't cackle.
Oh, and he didn't have such a blatantly evil name as "Gravemind."

Paitryn wrote:


You tell the transports to speed ahead. radio for support and charge the subs. if your a solo ship on escort, you either have the firepower to repel the attack, or you have support closing in fast anyways. If you dont, you shouldnt be on the water to begin with as you are an idiot who didnt think about the welfare and safety of those you were escorting. Since historically you would use nearly a fleet to transport that much out of hostile waters, I dont see why your sailing solo to begin with.

Submarines can and do swoop out of nowhere...and no support. Since you changed the parameters of my question, I'll change them as well - all available warships and aircraft other than your own are busy elsewhere. No support, you're on your own.