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Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Isn't there a US law that disbars them from providing funding for Organizations that recognize palestine as a state? I thought this was an issue when the Palestinians were put on the UN's World Heritage Organization thingy.
I mean, if the US is forced by law to stop funding the UN, well there goes the UN.
Isn't there a US law that disbars them from providing funding for Organizations that recognize palestine as a state? I thought this was an issue when the Palestinians were put on the UN's World Heritage Organization thingy.
I mean, if the US is forced by law to stop funding the UN, well there goes the UN.
Well maybe something good will come out of this
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I actually think it might be, but I think it is refering to Terrorist organizations and Hamas IIRC is defined as one. So its not directly aimed at Palestine but they simply fall into its scope.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/30 06:22:58
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Any organization which gives legitimacy to a terrorist organization would fall under the definition.
Of course this assumes the law is real, which I genuinely don't know about.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ratbarf wrote: Yet no one suggests that they aren't a civilized state and that their territory should be handed over to someone else.
Uh, almost every claim that one party involved isn't civilised is directed at Palestine. I mean, you've seen this, haven't you?
And no-one is saying Israel has to hand their territory over to anyone else. People are saying that should stop taking other people's land.
Hell 9/11 and the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan and the bombings in Yemen Somalia and Pakistan are analogous to the Palestinians shooting rockets and then Israel bombing them back. Yet there isn't anywhere near the outpouring of vitriol and hate as when Israel kills a few Palestinians.
Well I guess everything is okay then. I mean seriously, dude, you honestly think 'oh people aren't as outraged when people needlessly die in this other situation' is a defence?
Also the only thing that makes a state legitimate is if they can hold the territory they claim.
I think you're about 350 years behind in your reading on international law.
Yip, and do you know why those 91 people died? Because the British didn't think the Jews would be that audacious. They were actually phoned half an hour before the bomb went off, told there was a bomb, and told to evacuate. The British scoffed at the thought and stayed where they were. Next to the British office was the French office, they were also phoned to clear out, which they did, and didn't suffer a single casualty. I think there is a difference between intending to blow up a building but not hurt anyone, and the Palestinians firing rockets with the intention to kill. Bombs are like gifts, it's that thought that counts, not that you got the result you were aiming for.
Oh look, and when the side you've chosen blows up a building, there's all kinds of excuses and rationalisations. You know that wasn't the only violent act they undertook... they were pretty hardcore. And while violence is wrong and all that, you have to say well they were trying to fight for their own country, and that kind of stuff is what it took.
Basically, they weren't an anything. They weren't a part of Israel, and they weren't a nation in their own right. Now they're recognised as a territory in their own right, albeit not one that is yet a full member nation of the UN.
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AustonT wrote: The same thing they are after, squatters.
That's fething lovely. I mean, really just fething delightful.
People fething live there. They were born there, like their parents and their parents before. They aren't squatters, and the only reason anyone claims that kind of bs is to justify letting Israel do whatever they want in the region.
I suspect a lot of people get Palestine and Gaza confused.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/11/30 07:09:37
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah, I keep forgetting the West Bank and Gaza are actually 2 seperate areas politically. Of course they act the same so its easy to do.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, I keep forgetting the West Bank and Gaza are actually 2 seperate areas politically. Of course they act the same so its easy to do.
If you don't know enough about a region to know that two areas are politically and geographically seperate, then you almost certainly don't know enough to talk about their actions.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Ratbarf wrote: Lol, you might want to inform America of that, they seemed to be doing a pretty good job of racking up the civillian casualties in the invasion of Iraq. Or Vietnam, or Bosnia, or heck the British. Americans have a long history of being trigger happy and doing a piss poor job at target identification. Yet no one suggests that they aren't a civilized state and that their territory should be handed over to someone else.
But mommy, he did it too!!!!
Didn't this excuse stop working when you were a small child? And for the record, I hate the things the US is doing, but that's not the topic here.
Hell 9/11 and the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan and the bombings in Yemen Somalia and Pakistan are analogous to the Palestinians shooting rockets and then Israel bombing them back. Yet there isn't anywhere near the outpouring of vitriol and hate as when Israel kills a few Palestinians.
Except that:
1) The US invaded other nations, while Israel is bombing occupied territory. This is like arguing that because the military in a war is allowed to shoot an enemy with a gun without hesitation the police should also drop a hellfire missile on anyone who looks like a suspect.
and
2) The US has at least made a token attempt to create a long term solution (occupying Afghanistan and putting a new government in place), while Israel has no interest in any kind of long-term peace other than complete surrender to Israel. Until then they just keep bombing civilians.
Also the only thing that makes a state legitimate is if they can hold the territory they claim. Statehood is a monopoly on force in a given area, everything else is particulars. And I think we can agree that Israel has proven that it is legitimate seeing as it's still standing after three wars and a decades long insurgency.
By your standard North Korea is a legitimate nation, and I think you might be the only person outside North Korea that considers their government legitimate. "Might makes right" stopped being a legitimate ethical system a long, long time ago.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, I keep forgetting the West Bank and Gaza are actually 2 seperate areas politically. Of course they act the same so its easy to do.
If you don't know enough about a region to know that two areas are politically and geographically seperate, then you almost certainly don't know enough to talk about their actions.
I know they are seperate, it just keeps slipping my mind. So get off your high horse, people can make little mistakes now and again.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: The biggest issue for Israel is the silly international outrage they take for defending themselves.
Yeah, that silly international outrage. How dare anyone be bothered when Israel exercises its god-given right to kill innocent civilians because someone in the general area might have once launched a rocket at them.
Thats quite a simplified version of the situation. Hamas deliberatly hides behind civilians, and Israel warns them to get out of the way. Often repeatedly.
And then when they don't, Israel just blows them up and writes off the civilian deaths as the cost of ensuring that the target is dead. By this ridiculous reasoning every time a suspected murderer or other criminal takes hostages the police should respond by blowing up the building and killing everyone. Except they don't, because civilized people understand that it's not acceptable to just kill anyone who gets in the way of killing who you really want to kill. Sometimes civilized people just have to accept that they can't kill their target this time, and wait for a better opportunity.
Ya know what's really fethed up about this? Israel doesn't care if the building has been evacuated.
Grey Templar wrote:Put yourself in their shoes.
Would you rather risk the lives of 30 of your soldiers to take out a rocket battery, potentially getting in a firefight that results in dozens and dozens of casualities both yours, enemy, and civilians, or would you launch a single missile in a precision strike that kills 6 of the enemy and 6-8 civilians?
The missile precision strike has far less collateral damage potential then sending a platoon of soldiers.
I don't think you understand how ground troops work...
Would you rather risk the lives of 30 of your soldiers to take out a rocket battery, potentially getting in a firefight that results in dozens and dozens of casualities both yours, enemy, and civilians, or would you launch a single missile in a precision strike that kills 6 of the enemy and 6-8 civilians?
The missile precision strike has far less collateral damage potential then sending a platoon of soldiers.
I don't think you understand how ground troops work...
I do know bullets don't always hit their intended mark. A firefight in and around crowded civilian buildings is going to result in more casualities then a precision missile strike.
A missile has a maximum kill area, which you can plan for, a bullet can go for hundreds of feet and still kill. And most shooting in a military firefight is aimed in the general direction of the enemy as covering fire, not as a shot aimed at a known combatent.
Plus if the enemy is dressed exactly like the surrounding civilians it becomes even more likely you will shoot a civilian.
Suggesting ground troops in a situation like this is the dumbest idea ever.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/30 07:50:04
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Would you rather risk the lives of 30 of your soldiers to take out a rocket battery, potentially getting in a firefight that results in dozens and dozens of casualities both yours, enemy, and civilians, or would you launch a single missile in a precision strike that kills 6 of the enemy and 6-8 civilians?
The missile precision strike has far less collateral damage potential then sending a platoon of soldiers.
I don't think you understand how ground troops work...
I do know bullets don't always hit their intended mark. A firefight in and around crowded civilian buildings is going to result in more casualities then a precision missile strike.
A missile has a maximum kill area, which you can plan for, a bullet can go for hundreds of feet and still kill. And most shooting in a military firefight is aimed in the general direction of the enemy as covering fire, not as a shot aimed at a known combatent.
Plus if the enemy is dressed exactly like the surrounding civilians it becomes even more likely you will shoot a civilian.
Suggesting ground troops in a situation like this is the dumbest idea ever.
They aren't targeting the big bad guy's secret fortress hidden in the depths of gaza with thousands of troops tucked away inside. They're targeting very small groups of people, often only one or two, and not many more than that, so sending in troops would only result in the same sort of levels of civilian casualty if both the militants and the Israeli troops were just spraying as many bullets as possible at their target.
Israel dosen't like using ground troops because they can get captured. From my vantage point, it dosen't look like Israel cares if they kill civilians. They very well might. I just can't see it from where I am.
Grey Templar wrote: A missile has a maximum kill area, which you can plan for
That only helps if you pay attention to innocent civilians in the kill area, and are willing to call off the attack if there are any. Israel seems to have a hard time with that one.
a bullet can go for hundreds of feet and still kill.
That's assuming it hits you instead of just hitting a random wall/the ground/etc. A stray bullet is usually just going to hit empty space (simple probability), but a missile within lethal range of you is probably going to kill you.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
sebster wrote: Uh, almost every claim that one party involved isn't civilised is directed at Palestine. I mean, you've seen this, haven't you?
All rhetoric aside, Sebster's absolutely right here. Firing rockets randomly in the hope of inflicting as many civilian casualties as possible, strapping a bomb to your chest and detonating it where you'll maximize the number of children killed, and stabbing, disemboweling, and gouging out the eyes of two captured soldiers are all perfectly civilized forms of making your point.
sebster wrote: Uh, almost every claim that one party involved isn't civilised is directed at Palestine. I mean, you've seen this, haven't you?
All rhetoric aside, Sebster's absolutely right here. Firing rockets randomly in the hope of inflicting as many civilian casualties as possible, strapping a bomb to your chest and detonating it where you'll maximize the number of children killed, and stabbing, disemboweling, and gouging out the eyes of two captured soldiers are all perfectly civilized forms of making your point.
As opposed to bulldozing houses with people inside them or firing anti-tank missiles at civilian targets?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Seaward wrote: All rhetoric aside, Sebster's absolutely right here. Firing rockets randomly in the hope of inflicting as many civilian casualties as possible, strapping a bomb to your chest and detonating it where you'll maximize the number of children killed, and stabbing, disemboweling, and gouging out the eyes of two captured soldiers are all perfectly civilized forms of making your point.
Nobody would be blaming Israel if they just killed the people who were responsible for those things (at least the ones that didn't already kill themselves), the problem is that Israel is a big fan of guilt by association and collateral damage.
PS: "but they did it too" isn't an excuse.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Nobody would be blaming Israel if they just killed the people who were responsible for those things (at least the ones that didn't already kill themselves), the problem is that Israel is a big fan of guilt by association and collateral damage.
PS: "but they did it too" isn't an excuse.
The assumption that you can just "go in and get only the bad guys" is not, sadly, based on reality. It might make a certain amount of sense to people who've only ever experienced military operations via video game, but it just doesn't work like that in reality. Limiting Israel to defeating threats only when those threats are not surrounded by civilians prevents Israel from acting at all. Palestinian terrorists purposefully hide among Palestinian civilians - with the support of said civilians.
That you see a moral equivalency between an entire campaign based around killing as many civilians as possible, and a country that does what it can to limit collateral damage when it does choose to strike, is one of those things I will never be able to wrap my head around.
d-usa wrote: Bombing a UN refuge building is limiting collateral damage?
Setting off white phosporous bombs in civilian neighborhoods are targeted strikes limiting collateral damage?
Yeah, it is. Know why? Because, as usual, Hamas set up to start lobbing crap at the Israelis near something they hoped would cause outrage if it got hit when they were engaged. They know what they're doing.
It's both hilarious and sad that you feel accidentally hitting a UN building while firing on guys who've been trying to kill your civilians, and apologizing for it once it became clear what you hit, is exactly equivalent to getting on a civilian bus and blowing it up with the explosives you're wearing.
Seaward wrote: It's both hilarious and sad that you feel accidentally hitting a UN building while firing on guys who've been trying to kill your civilians, and apologizing for it once it became clear what you hit, is exactly equivalent to getting on a civilian bus and blowing it up with the explosives you're wearing.
Nice straw man. Criticizing Israel does not mean dismissing all of the horrible things that their enemies have done, nor does it mean that both are exactly equivalent. Palestinian terrorists kill civilians deliberately, Israel kills more civilians but does it "accidentally". Both of them suck in their own ways, and the solution is to build a wall around Israel and re-settle the ruins in a few decades.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
d-usa wrote: And violating international laws of warfare by setting of white phosphorous munitions in civilian neighborhoods?
You may know more about that than I do, but last I heard, it was two UN guys who claimed Israel had used WP shells, and it'd never been confirmed either way.
You're going to have to work considerably harder to justify terrorism, the use of human shields, and the torture and murder of captured soldiers.
Seaward wrote: You're going to have to work considerably harder to justify terrorism, the use of human shields, and the torture and murder of captured soldiers.
Didn't you learn that "but they did it too!" isn't an excuse when you were a small child?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Or Vietnam, or Bosnia, or heck the British. 
