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 sebster wrote:
No, I just post on things I know about. Whereas you launch into any thread you can, and start posting without spending half a second thinking about whether you actually have any information to give people, or just a noisy, fact free opinion.

No surprise how you've gotten so bitter, so quickly over being corrected on stuff.

Alright, now I'm genuinely starting to get worried you actually believe a lot of the stuff you say.

Except, of course, the Zionists were just as bad, and used just as awful measures as their opponents, until they won. Once they got a stable country that provided great economic opportunities for their kids then suddenly sneaking about with bombs and ambushing military patrols started looking like a really unnecessary waste of life.

At the same life for the Palestinians got a whole lot worse, and they started getting even worse with their actions.

It's clear the economic situation can very quickly change how people act, and so your grand theory of irrational, forever war of tribalism is a-class bs.

Now it's up to you whether I could post that because I just looked it up on wiki or because I actually know things. Either way I'm bringing facts to an internet debate, which is apparently cheating.

Like this claptrap, for example. It boils down to, "Zionist extremists did bad things seventy years ago, so Palestinians are equivalent to Israelis in moral standing." Seventy years from now, if the Palestinians have managed to cobble together a functioning state that doesn't promote the use of suicide bombers and random rocket attacks on civilian populations, and all the other atrocities their leadership is busily planning at the moment, you might have a point.

Right now, you're just pounding out a sad little collection of apologetics for pointless mass murder.

 Seaward wrote:
Seventy years from now, if the Palestinians have managed to cobble together a functioning state that doesn't promote the use of suicide bombers and random rocket attacks on civilian populations, and all the other atrocities their leadership is busily planning at the moment, you might have a point.

That, I believe, is the point. Ergun did some shocking stuff, like blowing up the King David hotel for example. They celebrate that every year. Zionists are murdering scum, that doesn't mean that contemporary Israelis are murdering scum.

Well, not necessarily anyway.

^ The earliest Palestinians who went war against 'Jews' are christians. While Roman Catholic church declared in 50s or 60s that 'Jews are no longer responsible to the death of Jesus'. the Eastern Orthodoxy (which had no centralized governing body since the Fall of Constantinople) still hold that Jews must pay for their 'crimes'.

Muslims joined the fray relatively late, the main reason was not the hatred against Jews, even if they managed to conquer Israel by 50s they won't simply killed them just because they're Jews. if Jews are useful to Arabian masters, why kill them? the reason is actually 'Anti Imperialism'. and in the recent past, Christianity had been viewed as a tool of Imperialism

 Seaward wrote:
"Zionist extremists did bad things seventy years ago, so Palestinians are equivalent to Israelis in moral standing." Seventy years from now, if the Palestinians have managed to cobble together a functioning state that doesn't promote the use of suicide bombers and random rocket attacks on civilian populations, and all the other atrocities their leadership is busily planning at the moment, you might have a point.

Right now, you're just pounding out a sad little collection of apologetics for pointless mass murder.

A Sept 1st, 1982 article in Bamahane, the IDF version of Stars and Stripes, quoted a Phalangist "the question we are putting to ourselves is — how to begin, by raping or killing?"



Zionist extremists have done bad things a lot more recently than 70 years ago.

Following the assassination of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel, then Israeli defense minister Ariel Sharon met with revenge seeking Lebanese Phalangists, informing them that the PLO was behind the assassination (a lie, the real killer was a member of Syrian intelligence). IDF then permitted the Phalangists entry to the refugee camps. By the time pressure from outside reached sufficient levels to warrant intervention by the IDF, between 2k, and 3500 civilians had been slaughtered, creating a scene more appropriate to the rule of Vlad Tepes than a modern nation.

"I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles." - Journalist Janet Lee Stevens on the Sabra and Shatila massacre

While IDF didn't commit the butchery themselves, they let the Phalangists in, they refused to allow anyone to flee, during the night the Israeli forces fired illuminating flares over the camps, and they sat there and watched it happen for two days before attempting to stop it. The Kahan Commission's report, Israel in Lebanon, concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings that have been reported to have been carried out by Lebanese militiamen in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between the 16th and 18th.

Most reliable accounts place the death toll between 2,000 and 3,500 civies.

I am still confused as to why the United States concerns itself with moral standing.

Seaward, I really, I mean I really really, I cannot fathom your position. I cannot fathom how you can hold those opinions in the face of the evidence.

It just completely baffles me. I think I'm going to avoid Israel/Palestine debates for a while. My blood pressure can't hack it. It's one of the few topic that really makes me angry, because the lack of empathy is so intense and the arguments so poisonous.

Honestly I don't even know why Seaward is a member he has no concern or respect towards the people he/she replies to, as evidenced by him/her frequently taking other posters words out of context, not acknowledging certain points, assuming things they didn't say, not even bothering to

read people's responses properly or just plain making gak up. He's/she's not even interested in having a discussion he's just here to spout his/her often flawed views and anytime someone sees fault with them he/she just misrepresents there replies (essentially arguing with arguments

that don't even exist) and tells them they're wrong without even having a clear understanding of what they said in the first place. If you can't be arsed to listen to what others have to say, how about not posting at all the whole point of a forum is to share and exchange ideas if you have no

interest in hearing what others have to say then go spend your internet time on a place where you aren't interacting with people. Mind you I suppose we're all at fault here as well, some of us actually bother to listen and reply (which arguably makes us more dignified) to his inane dribble.

No one is clean and pure. There are points from both sides. That doesn't prevent others from making a decision to agree with one side or the other. Nor should it. I personally side with Israel. It's a decision based on having visited the region and having friends from several families who fled various areas in the region or who have relatives living in Israel. It's based on my personal viewpoint and knowledge.

I know how I want my country to react should our civilian population be targeted. I applaud Israel for it's discretion. It's not a fight where both sides are standing up and there is no easy solution. One of our civilians is one too many so how can I codemn Israel for the same mentality. My personal opinion but there you go.

My true issue with this is that the UN voted to grant Palestine recognized statehood. I'll be interested in seeing how this develops. Personally I think it was a mistake for the UN. The Palestinian "Territories" are held by different governments so which one is the real Palestinian government?

The UN's authority is already a moderate joke so what happens if they try to flex it's muscles on a nation like Israel? How will the UN react when the next missile from it's newly recognized nation hits Israel and Israel retaliates?

I just think the UN opened a can of worms that it didn't fully consider before it voted.

Hulksmash wrote:No one is clean and pure. There are points from both sides. That doesn't prevent others from making a decision to agree with one side or the other. Nor should it. I personally side with Israel. It's a decision based on having visited the region and having friends from several families who fled various areas in the region or who have relatives living in Israel. It's based on my personal viewpoint and knowledge.

He's probably asleep so I'll do it.

sebster wrote:you have no idea what you're talking about. You just come in this thread with a simplistic yada yada. Read up yada yada. And someday you'll know as much as I do.

I think we're all done here.