Anyone have experience with the Vulture Gunship?

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**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

Kasrkin229 wrote:
With a vulture gunship I will take the following load outs.

Light anti- armour , MC buster - twin linked autocannon , 6 Hunter killer missiles

Infantry ball buster - twin linked punisher cannons

Heavy anti armour - just get a vendetta , it's cheaper and cannot outflank, due to the ambiguous FAQ

Fixed that for ya.

However, The Vendetta is a Fast Attack slot, Triple lascannon, decent tank hunter.

The Vulture is a Heavy slot, has options for a decent/great MC/Infantry/Light Vehicle hunter.

Just take a 3/2 split and call it a day ^^

**Trickstick**

Flinty wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
Why not compare it to a Valkyrie with missile pods and heavy bolters?

20 twin linked BS4 shots on a vector dancing flyer. Seems a whole lot better for a ~15 point increase.

I wonder how a Vulture would fair with 4 missile pods. 4 five inch blasts covers a lot of table. Might pan out better than 20 shots. Also wouldn't be useless after a weapon destroy.

-Matt

The FW missile pod rules for imperial flyers are different to the Valkyrie codex pods, as far as I know. The Vulture gets 2x small blasts, rather than 1 large blast per pod. I had quite a lot of fun with a missile pod vulture. Even against low model count armies like marines you will rack up the hits with that many blasts

Nope, they are the same as the codex. At least in IA1:2. (I'm still trying to find a good abbreviation for this thing, any ideas?)

**Kasrkin229**

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Kasrkin229 wrote:
With a vulture gunship I will take the following load outs.

Light anti- armour , MC buster - twin linked autocannon , 6 Hunter killer missiles

Infantry ball buster - twin linked punisher cannons

Heavy anti armour - just get a vendetta , it's cheaper and cannot outflank, due to the ambiguous FAQ

Fixed that for ya.

However, The Vendetta is a Fast Attack slot, Triple lascannon, decent tank hunter.

The Vulture is a Heavy slot, has options for a decent/great MC/Infantry/Light Vehicle hunter

Just take a 3/2 split and call it a day ^^

No hey can still outflank , just can't use the rule to come in on first turn

**Trickstick**

No vendetta outflanking arguments, you are probably not going to convince each other anyway. Keep that sort of things in YMDC.

**Kingsley**

Again, keep in mind that if Forge World rules are allowed and other people can afford to keep up with the Forge World arms race, nearly all flyers are competitively invalid thanks to the large number of powerful units with Skyfire and Interceptor that Forge World rules add to the game.

Generally, people don't take this into account, because they tend to be one of the few people buying their way to the top in the local scene with FW stuff-- but in the event that someone else decides to do the same, you may have a nasty surprise coming.

**Trickstick**

Kingsley wrote:
...they tend to be one of the few people buying their way to the top in the local scene with FW stuff...

Do many people view Forge World use this way, as just a way to get better stuff? I know that there are a fair few people who probably will just go out and get a load of awesome units to make their army better, but there are also a lot of us who just like the models or like the play style more. I suppose it depends on the person really, I can only speak for myself.

I'm going to be running some armoured battle group lists (I feel like an ABGroupie lately, it is all I post about. Going to put it down to excitement...) , I hope that not everyone will think I am doing it to just win. Actually, I expect to lose a lot anyway because I'm going to be nice and tell people what I am running. I just like tanks, even if it means going down in a blaze of glory!

**Kingsley**

Trickstick wrote:
Kingsley wrote:
...they tend to be one of the few people buying their way to the top in the local scene with FW stuff...

Do many people view Forge World use this way, as just a way to get better stuff? I know that there are a fair few people who probably will just go out and get a load of awesome units to make their army better, but there are also a lot of us who just like the models or like the play style more. I suppose it depends on the person really, I can only speak for myself.

I actually agree with your style-- I have multiple Forge World models solely because I like their æsthetic. That said, there are definitely people who use FW rules to gain an advantage with rules their opponents aren't planning for or for the few truly broken units in the Forge World books. I consider those people to be "ruining it for the rest of us," but it is what it is. Ultimately the real solution to this would be for FW to simply write balanced rules, but thus far they haven't managed to do a very good job of it.

The extreme proliferation of Skyfire/Interceptor weapons in Forge World books is probably the best example of this-- Forge World writers really don't seem to understand the way that Flyers are supposed to be balanced in 6th edition 40k.

**Trickstick**

I don't know, I think that they are just trying to give everybody decent access to AA weapons. Take away FW and fliers dominate far too much.

Plus, I am very much of the opinion that you should talk to your opponents before the game. Ask about any units you don't know about and look at the rules. Some people ignore this "pre-game" step and get into bother when something happens at the bottom of turn four. People just need to talk to each other more, it would avoid 90% of the problems that crop up.

As for getting models for their looks, is sort of impulse bought an alpha pattern vanquisher. I wonder how long it will take for someone to make an "overcompensating" joke at my local store.

**TheCaptain**

I get a distinct feeling that the people that talk of FW as overpowered/unfair choices fail to admit that they've never actually faced/used them.

Comparing them to awful, useless codex options and claiming they are OP is foolish.

FW offers more balanced stuff to the game; stuff that can actually be useful.

For instance:

HWS's are crap. Sabres are good. Sabres are not game-winning, but they are indeed actually useful, and priced to reflect this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Kasrkin229 wrote:
With a vulture gunship I will take the following load outs.

Light anti- armour , MC buster - twin linked autocannon , 6 Hunter killer missiles

Infantry ball buster - twin linked punisher cannons

Heavy anti armour - just get a vendetta , it's cheaper and cannot outflank, due to the ambiguous FAQ

Fixed that for ya.

However, The Vendetta is a Fast Attack slot, Triple lascannon, decent tank hunter.

The Vulture is a Heavy slot, has options for a decent/great MC/Infantry/Light Vehicle hunter.

Just take a 3/2 split and call it a day ^^

So if something is ambiguous, you assume negative?

Ambiguous by definition means you can't be sure. Meaning theres no clear answer. Meaning, according to your very own wording, you cannot be sure.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Navras wrote:

The publisher cannons are bs4 with strafing run....so

17.77 hits. + 2 from the heavy bolter.

It will on average kill 4.39 marines or 11.54 guardsmen.

Vector dancer gives it an extra 90 degree turn at the end of its
move which means it can easily get tanks side armor. It also keeps it from having to fly off the board a lot.

These statistics are accurate, and demonstrate that the vulture is good. Not OP, not worth pooping your pants over; it is good.

**Kingsley**

Trickstick wrote:
I don't know, I think that they are just trying to give everybody decent access to AA weapons. Take away FW and fliers dominate far too much.

In my experience that isn't the case, you just have to know what existing units have game against flyers and perhaps take a flyer or two of your own. I've never been overwhelmed by flyers with a balanced 6th edition list.

Trickstick wrote:
Plus, I am very much of the opinion that you should talk to your opponents before the game. Ask about any units you don't know about and look at the rules. Some people ignore this "pre-game" step and get into bother when something happens at the bottom of turn four. People just need to talk to each other more, it would avoid 90% of the problems that crop up.

Definitely agreed. The problem I have is that in tournament play you may not have time to do this and still get a full game in.

**thisisnotpancho**

thanks for the feedback. I think that the FW units are extremely strong, and fill a gap in some armies that just can't be filled with GW codecis (anti-air). With that being said, i believe that the forgeworld units are priced corretly. I mean sure you can get a twin-linked lascannon with interceptor and skyfire that ignores nightfighting, but it is going to cost you 50 points per lascannon only at bs3. Compare that to the quad gun and you see how balanced they are priced. The units in the FW books are strong, there is no arguing that, but i think that they accounted for that by making them more points. This is however, my two cents. I have not playtested with the vulture, and i don't know whether it is broken or not.

**Trickstick**

Kingsley wrote:
Trickstick wrote:
Plus, I am very much of the opinion that you should talk to your opponents before the game. Ask about any units you don't know about and look at the rules. Some people ignore this "pre-game" step and get into bother when something happens at the bottom of turn four. People just need to talk to each other more, it would avoid 90% of the problems that crop up.

Definitely agreed. The problem I have is that in tournament play you may not have time to do this and still get a full game in.

Closest I came to a tournament was standing near one. I think it is fair to expect most people to know most of the rules at a tournament. If you enter a tournament without an idea of what you could be facing, it is kind of your own fault. You may not know everything exactly, but you should have a general idea what everything is.

**gpfunk**

I really like this unit. I don't think forgeworld is any more broken than codex units (I'm looking at you Necrons.) I honestly think you've just introduced me to the new addition to my renegade guard allies. Definitely paying the points for that Punisher Cannon!

Looking at the rules it looks like it has some seriously good anti-horde and low AV power. But if you choose you can outfit it to be a sort of odd Anti Tank Weapon. You could fit it with a twin linked lascannon and 6 (!) hunter killer missiles. Seems kinda funny and perhaps not the most effective load out, but it could be fun to sit this in hover mode at the 48 inch mark and just throw out missiles.

**Kingsley**

thisisnotpancho wrote:
thanks for the feedback. I think that the FW units are extremely strong, and fill a gap in some armies that just can't be filled with GW codecis (anti-air). With that being said, i believe that the forgeworld units are priced corretly. I mean sure you can get a twin-linked lascannon with interceptor and skyfire that ignores nightfighting, but it is going to cost you 50 points per lascannon only at bs3. Compare that to the quad gun and you see how balanced they are priced. The units in the FW books are strong, there is no arguing that, but i think that they accounted for that by making them more points. This is however, my two cents. I have not playtested with the vulture, and i don't know whether it is broken or not.

The problem is some capabilities should not be in codexes at all and including them disrupts the game. Look, for instance, to the Hydra-- if it had Skyfire/Interceptor, it would be utterly broken. GW knows when to rein things in, FW doesn't.

**Trickstick**

Kingsley wrote:
thisisnotpancho wrote:
thanks for the feedback. I think that the FW units are extremely strong, and fill a gap in some armies that just can't be filled with GW codecis (anti-air). With that being said, i believe that the forgeworld units are priced corretly. I mean sure you can get a twin-linked lascannon with interceptor and skyfire that ignores nightfighting, but it is going to cost you 50 points per lascannon only at bs3. Compare that to the quad gun and you see how balanced they are priced. The units in the FW books are strong, there is no arguing that, but i think that they accounted for that by making them more points. This is however, my two cents. I have not playtested with the vulture, and i don't know whether it is broken or not.

The problem is some capabilities should not be in codexes at all and including them disrupts the game. Look, for instance, to the Hydra-- if it had Skyfire/Interceptor, it would be utterly broken. GW knows when to rein things in, FW doesn't.

Actually, FW reigned some things in more than GW did in the latest IA. For instance, armoured fist veteran squads only get 2 special weapons. You can only have one vendetta/vulture squadron. Hades drills were made elites. There are some more too but I can't remember the entire book.

As for the vulture, it strikes me as exactly the model to magnetise. It would have different weapon packages for different tasks.

**Kingsley**

Those seem like reasonable moves, but the fact remains that some capabilities really shouldn't be in the game. Hades drills and Lucius-pattern/Deathstorm Drop Pods are the prime example of this. These units are totally balanced, but they're fundamentally unfun and bad designs. GW has removed similar units completely, but FW hasn't caught up.

Skyfire/Interceptor units should be few and far between-- I think there's a reasonable debate to be had as to whether they should be in Codexes at all. GW's 6th edition books don't feature these capabilities much, while FW literally hands these abilities out for free.

**DaddyWarcrimes**

Trickstick wrote:
Kingsley wrote:
thisisnotpancho wrote:
thanks for the feedback. I think that the FW units are extremely strong, and fill a gap in some armies that just can't be filled with GW codecis (anti-air). With that being said, i believe that the forgeworld units are priced corretly. I mean sure you can get a twin-linked lascannon with interceptor and skyfire that ignores nightfighting, but it is going to cost you 50 points per lascannon only at bs3. Compare that to the quad gun and you see how balanced they are priced. The units in the FW books are strong, there is no arguing that, but i think that they accounted for that by making them more points. This is however, my two cents. I have not playtested with the vulture, and i don't know whether it is broken or not.

The problem is some capabilities should not be in codexes at all and including them disrupts the game. Look, for instance, to the Hydra-- if it had Skyfire/Interceptor, it would be utterly broken. GW knows when to rein things in, FW doesn't.

Actually, FW reigned some things in more than GW did in the latest IA. For instance, armoured fist veteran squads only get 2 special weapons. You can only have one vendetta/vulture squadron. Hades drills were made elites. There are some more too but I can't remember the entire book.

As for the vulture, it strikes me as exactly the model to magnetise. It would have different weapon packages for different tasks.

I'd hardly say that making Drills Elites was reigning them in, since so few IG players use any Elites other than the PBS, and occaisionally Marbo. Aileros loves his Storm Troopers, but that's largely the exception rather than the rule.

**kestril**

Kingsley wrote:
[

The problem is some capabilities should not be in codexes at all and including them disrupts the game. Look, for instance, to the Hydra-- if it had Skyfire/Interceptor, it would be utterly broken. GW knows when to rein things in, FW doesn't.

But it still wouldn't be broken. It still only fires autocannons at BS 3 and is mounted on a chassis with AV 10 side armor. Furthermore it can only snapshot at infantry now. Most of the time, those hydras will be the first thing enemy fliers target.

But in my opinion, the vulture seems to be a little overpowered. The only thing I can really compare it to is the punisher tank, and that costs more and has far less maneuverability, ballistic skill 3, and isn't twin-linked.

**Trickstick**

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I'd hardly say that making Drills Elites was reigning them in, since so few IG players use any Elites other than the PBS, and occaisionally Marbo. Aileros loves his Storm Troopers, but that's largely the exception rather than the rule.

Sorry, that was just a quick example to show that they stopped them from scoring. Hades got a major overhaul, making them more fun. For instance, if they come up under an enemy and fail to kill enough to fit on the table, they mishap with a -2. And you can trap the unit following them (which is also elite, although a 2for1 slot purchase with the drill) in the hole and stop them appearing at all. Definitely seems a more fun unit, and less of the fear monger it used to be. It did get cheaper though.

**Che-Vito**

< Taken by the void dragon. >

**Trickstick**

You are forgetting that the punisher is twin linked, so you would get 15 hits, 10 wounds. Also, 5 hits per blast seems a bit optimistic. Proper spacing would lower that. Also, the punisher is better against small, elite units with decent saves.

Another thing to take into consideration is that it takes far longer to work out 4 blasts than a punisher volley, with more room for human error and arguments.

**thisisnotpancho**

Che-Vito wrote:
thisisnotpancho wrote:
Well I run daemons, and i've always had trouble facing hordes. I have looked for answers and found little to none. Finally i'm starting to look at FW models and i found the Vulture Gunship as part of an allied IG detachment. I'm currently looking at the twin linked punisher cannons as an aid to my daemons. I figure that with daemons supple anti-armor (flamers and screamers), I thought that the vulture could be the thing that i was looking for. Problem is, it is a little pricy (i would only run this in an 1850 or 2k list), and i don't know how well it actually performs...

20 twin linked shots at s5 and bs4 coupled with being a flier and vector dancer sounds pretty damn appealing, but i don't know if it is worth its points. Anyone around here have experience with it and might also want to tell me another vulture loadout that might be more successful?

Any other comments, questions, or hints?

Let me know what you think,
Thisisnotpancho

155 points gets you:
Punisher Gatling Cannon
20 BS 3, S5 Ap- shots

155 points also gets you:
Multiple Rocket Pods (4)
4 S4 Ap5, Large Blasts

Personally, I'd rather take the latter against hordes.

Against a horde of Ork Boyz:

Punisher Gatling Cannon
20 shots, 10 hits, ~6.6 wounds, 5 dead Orks

4 Multiple Rocket Pods
[let's assume that all templates are able to hit the horde, scoring 5 hits per large blast marker]
20 hits, 10 wounds, 10 dead Orks

The tradeoff: PGC can harass transports/other aircraft. The MRP is much more effective at killing 5+/6+ armored infantry

Well keep in mind that blasts scatter two thirds of the time, and also keep in mind that the vulture is BS4 against ground targets and the punisher is twin linked.

So 10 hits at bs3 becomes 17.7 at twin-linked bs4 and then coupled with the bolter becomes roughly 11 dead orks. I wouldn't depend on the scatter of the blasts also, i would assume you would almost completely miss one in four if you were scattering. Just my thought again

**Che-Vito**

< Taken by the void dragon. >

**Trickstick**

Che-Vito wrote:
Trickstick wrote:
You are forgetting that the punisher is twin linked, so you would get 15 hits, 10 wounds. Also, 5 hits per blast seems a bit optimistic. Proper spacing would lower that. Also, the punisher is better against small, elite units with decent saves.

Another thing to take into consideration is that it takes far longer to work out 4 blasts than a punisher volley, with more room for human error and arguments.

Ah, yes. I'll revise my math.

Looks like both of us forgot strafing run as well.

**Che-Vito**

< Taken by the void dragon. >

**thisisnotpancho**

Che-Vito wrote:

I think there are a few errors in the math so far:
- we forgot Strafing Run
- from my experience, about 5 models (especially in a horde unit, like Ork Boys, Guardsmen, or Gaunts) under a Large Blast, is pretty normal. For all of their talk about spacing, even tourney gamers tend to not space 'ideally' to deal with blasts.
- I think BS4 with scatter has a very solid chance of staying over a unit, even with 4 templates. All factors considered, you'll have an average scatter distance of 0.6~ inches. (I am not familar enough with 6e Multiple Blast rules, so don't know if that may also apply.)

Having been updated on a few things though, I think the PGC Vulture is the better option.
Looking at this update though, I see nothing in it's rules that makes it BS4 against ground targets.
(http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/downloads/product/pdf/i/IA1update28AUG.pdf)

.
It is in Imperial Armor Aeronautica, which i believe is older than that update. It gives it strafing run and vector dancer.

**Trickstick**

That update is obsolete now, it has been replaced by IA:A and IA1:2ed. It doesn't even have hull points. Vultures have vector dancer and strafing run.

Also, they do not have barrage weapons and so work out their blasts separately, not as a multiple.

**Navras**

I have already done and posted the correct maths... Please check before posting next time...

Navras wrote:
The vulture is a fast attack choice for imperial guard.

The publisher cannons are bs4 with strafing run....so

17.77 hits. + 2 from the heavy bolter.

It will on average kill 4.39 marines or 11.54 guardsmen.

Vector dancer gives it an extra 90 degree turn at the end of its
move which means it can easily get tanks side armor. It also keeps it from having to fly off the board a lot.