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Eilif wrote:
Jah-Jashua,
Thanks for bringing your professional point of view to the discussion. One question if I may, how many hours would a figure like that take you (or him, if you have some idea) to complete?

I'm just curious to what the per-hour wage works out too. Not that it's really a determiner of value, just something I was wondering about.

well, Eilif, Razza is a very good painter, and a fast one...
he probably put about 15-20 hours into this guy...
this is a fairly early display piece, with a simple old school style...
he has done many more groundbreaking paintjobs after this Marine...

it's very easy to put 100 hours into a display piece..
understand that a good amount of that time is spent planning...
as you see on the Ultramarine, all the markings jive with the background and setting...
then there will be a bit of experimenting with the scheme, changing a few things that aren't quite working...
the idea being to strive for a mini that seems to stride right out of a Black Library book, or a piece of Codex art...

one general rule i have heard a lot in the industry is that a painter should hope to earn about $10 an hour...
i spend so much time on prep, planning, and experimenting, in the end i make about $3 an hour...
fortunately, i'm just trying to become the best painter i can be, not get rich...

cheers
jah

Is that model worth it? IMO, no. It's a good example of technique, I guess, but the model has no character. Generic pose, generic washed out colors, no setting. It shows that the artist is good at blending colors smoothly, but it's really only impressive because miniature painting is a niche hobby where truly great artists are rare and having solid technique is enough to win awards.

Could any model be worth it? Sure, it depends on the model. I'd probably never buy one myself because I have better things to do with the kind of money I'd have to pay for something I'd actually want to display, but I can see how someone could pay $500+ for the right model. But I'd expect it to be a work of art and not just an unimaginative demonstration of some specific technique.

It's worth whatever people are prepared to pay for it. I don't understand the indignation behind the OP's comment that it doesn't 'deserve' such a cost. Given the hours gone into painting it, it's probably not a get rich quick scheme...

It's a strange contrast to the prices on unpainted collectible figures. Here people moan about a painted model not deserving its listed price. Yet I've seen people collecting OOP or ltd edition figures who argue against illegal recasting or legal reproduction or those figures because they 'deserve' the collectible value on them that they enjoy by having something rare. If eBay is flooded with recasts and it affects the value if their figures, that's wrong. They deserve a return on those figures they bought cheap and are now very rare.

Umm, I don't think so. And I say that as someone who has sold a lot of older figures on eBay. I think that people wanting these figures will buy the genuine article and its collectible value will hold well. Equally, people will value the work of a GD standard artist and pay for that. 'Deserve' is a funny work to use here, it's mostly about people being indignant about others valuing something differently, or having a right expect a certain value on things.

I'd never spend £200 on that figure. But I don't begrudge him it, best of luck to him.

Because it's the miniature Dakka deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll sell it. Because it can take it. Because it's not our miniature. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A Vanguard Veteran.

 jah-joshua wrote:

Eilif wrote:
Jah-Jashua,
Thanks for bringing your professional point of view to the discussion. One question if I may, how many hours would a figure like that take you (or him, if you have some idea) to complete?

I'm just curious to what the per-hour wage works out too. Not that it's really a determiner of value, just something I was wondering about.

well, Eilif, Razza is a very good painter, and a fast one...
he probably put about 15-20 hours into this guy...
this is a fairly early display piece, with a simple old school style...
he has done many more groundbreaking paintjobs after this Marine...

Thanks,
That adds a new dimension to this.

Assuming he gets it done in 15-20hours and already had the fig lying around, converted to us dollars he is making $16-21 bucks an hour. That's good for a mini painter, but not amazing for a top professional in any other field.

It's not something that I'm interested in purchasing, but it seems entirely reasonable if considered based on the artist and time spent.

The only time I've ever considered buying "pro painted" miniatures was when littleboyblues put up that one army of his on ebay.

For those whom have forgotten what that army looked like here be a sampler,





I would have bought the lot if I had the scratch at the time.

Link to gallery http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?p=1&u=13017&g=2306&ll=3&auction=0&unapproved=0&coolnesslow=0&coolnesshigh=10&paintjoblow=0&paintjobhigh=10&sort1=7&sort2=0&skip=30&en=&st=&utype=&start=0

The really high quality pro painted stuff looks amazing.. Is it worth it? To the person who pays for it.. yes. To me? Not at all, since I take no pride in showing people my models if someone else made them look great.

I would personally give him the amount the model is worth on standard market... as long as he throws in enough Simple Green.

Doing it for pride and showing off the models to others? Perhaps only a small minority does that?

I personally like nicely painted miniatures be they armies/dioramas/single models. Looking at said models and appreciating the effort that went into it.

Do they command a premium? Hell yes!

Who wouldn't want a daemon sword level miniature for err... USD10?

Ana from Chest of colours can command well over 1k Euro for a single miniature. Do people buy? Based on the queue, I suspect the answer is yes.

Sooo... nothing wrong or right. Just do what makes you happy.

Agreed with the last post - its value is only as much as what other perceive it to be.

If someone famous painted it, it could be worth more. If I was the one who painting it, it's be worth jack...

 jah-joshua wrote:

Eilif wrote:
Jah-Jashua,
Thanks for bringing your professional point of view to the discussion. One question if I may, how many hours would a figure like that take you (or him, if you have some idea) to complete?

I'm just curious to what the per-hour wage works out too. Not that it's really a determiner of value, just something I was wondering about.

one general rule i have heard a lot in the industry is that a painter should hope to earn about $10 an hour...
i spend so much time on prep, planning, and experimenting, in the end i make about $3 an hour...
fortunately, i'm just trying to become the best painter i can be, not get rich...

cheers
jah

Thats why I stopped doing model commissions, not worth the time. I can airbrush a motor cycle helmet in a week and make $500 to $2500. Just doesnt make sense. When I get a shop I'll do vehicle wraps and make $6000 to $10,000 in 40 hours or less. Considering the slave wages people offer I have zero problem passing models off to people that will glady kill themselves for nothing. Its sad really that there is so little value on painting models.

200 pounds for 20 hours of work? That sounds right to me.

 heartserenade wrote:
Because it's the miniature Dakka deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll sell it. Because it can take it. Because it's not our miniature. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A Vanguard Veteran.

My thoughts exactly.

Quick look on ebay and found this for 20% of the price: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WARHAMMER-40K-ULTRAMARINES-MARNEUS-CALGAR-IN-TERMINATOR-ARMOUR-PRO-PAINTED-/390496304410?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item5aeb64bd1a

But that Calgar isn't as well-painted, in my opinion.

Yes, and the picture isn't sharp enough to tell us if it's even remotely close (which I highly doubt) to the quality of the item in the OP.

Pro-Painted means exactly nothing.

 ruminator wrote:
Quick look on ebay and found this for 20% of the price: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WARHAMMER-40K-ULTRAMARINES-MARNEUS-CALGAR-IN-TERMINATOR-ARMOUR-PRO-PAINTED-/390496304410?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item5aeb64bd1a

Drybrushes and washes, with a lot of details left unpainted. TBH, I'm more surprised someone would pay that amount for that quality. But good for him if he makes a sale.

Being that it is on the fringes of artwork, it is worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it.

While it would be interesting to think that a miniature painter should make $10-15 per hour for their work - those issues really don't come into play. If no one is willing to pay $200 for something that you spent 20 hours on...it isn't worth that.

Some of the most efficient painters who actually make a good living at it produce that quality of work in a matter of hours and often sell the figures for more. Staff painters for miniature companies often get a day or less to paint each figure - and due to their name recognition amongst the hobbyists.

I'm not talking about companies like Blue Table who turn out armies at a time - but painters who are able to quickly paint up complete lines of miniatures for release by companies for use in online and printed materials.

ruminator wrote:Quick look on ebay and found this for 20% of the price: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WARHAMMER-40K-ULTRAMARINES-MARNEUS-CALGAR-IN-TERMINATOR-ARMOUR-PRO-PAINTED-/390496304410?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item5aeb64bd1a

Color me unimpressed by that model. I consider myself a fair painter at best, and I could beat that paintjob.

Eilif wrote:Pro-Painted means exactly nothing.

No, pro-painted means exactly one thing: At some point in the past, the person who painted this was paid for painting something.
This has zero bearing on if it looks good, which I believe is what you were getting at.

For the model In the OP post I personally think, If Its £100 then yes I would think thats reasonable and If its something I collect (Grey knight/ Blood angel then I might buy it)

ruminator wrote:Quick look on ebay and found this for 20% of the price: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WARHAMMER-40K-ULTRAMARINES-MARNEUS-CALGAR-IN-TERMINATOR-ARMOUR-PRO-PAINTED-/390496304410?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item5aeb64bd1a

This is Just not very good, so it can't compare.

 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
To get some perspective you can buy (or not buy as it has been on sale over 3 years now) the original artwork by Mark Gibbons from 1993 for the eldar codex... for 700GBP.

I wish I could own some of his artwork - every image I have seen with the MG signature on it has been amazing - he is a fantastic artist

 nolzur wrote:

Eilif wrote:Pro-Painted means exactly nothing.

No, pro-painted means exactly one thing: At some point in the past, the person who painted this was paid for painting something.
This has zero bearing on if it looks good, which I believe is what you were getting at.

Good Point, I guess once you've been paid for something you can call yourself a pro in the most base sense of the word.

Still, to be a "professional", the activity has to be a "profession" and to be engaged in a "profession" I think someone has to derive a significant portion of their livelyhood from that activity. In the strictest use of the term, this guy is probably "Amateur" or "Semi-pro" at best.

Semantics aside, my point -as you correctly surmised- was that the term "pro-painted" (especially when used on Ebay) tells you nothing about the quality, and usually even less about the actual profession of the painter.

I suppose folks would rather stretch the truth than apply the label "Semi-Pro Painted" , or the more likely technically correct statement "Amature Painted" to their auctions.

People attempt to enhance the value of their miniatures with terms that excite and reassure the buyer.

There are a few gems of painting here and there but I've bought enough off ebay to know that pro-painted is pro-gak.

I really dislike evy metal painting style so no, though if that was something better suited for my taste like some models painted by Blanche then yes.