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 Ailaros wrote:

Corollax wrote:Is it really that hard to run a proper allied blob list and keep track of what percentage of your kills are from flashlights?

Well, it does get muddled pretty quickly. After all, we're talking about a weapon that comes for "free" with a unit (rather than an upgrade), and is always on units that are also scoring (so the value of the unit isn't entirely determined by what it kills).

In any case, I've often found that one of the differences between better and worse players is who knows how to use their small arms, and who does not.

It takes 9 lasgun shots to have a 50% chance of killing a single MEQ. That's pretty crappy bro.

 Testify wrote:
It takes 9 lasgun shots to have a 50% chance of killing a single MEQ. That's pretty crappy bro.

But suppose you're bringing an IC that grants ATSKNF, 24" 4+ psyker resistance, and Ld10, with prescience as a nice bonus. Remember that you're also required to buy a 30 point PCS to get your blob in the first place.

At that point, 8 shots will kill a marine more often than not. At 12-24" with FRFSRF or 0-12" without, that's four dudes. I'm bringing forty.

If that IC costs 160 points then those guardsmen are 9 points each. If each squad has a meltagun and a lascannon they're 11.5 points each.

They will die very rapidly, even if you can get them an Aegis cover save. You also remove the imperative to charge, since most armies will be able to simply kill the blob, or at least deeply wound it, and simply swoop on the objective after.

Hedkrakka wrote:
I just hope the next codex allows all infantry units to take voxes. I mean, why can't a heavy weapons guy carry a radio rather than a spade?

Well, there is a way. Armoured battle groups can take armoured fist heavy squads, which can take a vox. However, there are many drawbacks. They must take a chimera and use a heavy slot.

 Testify wrote:
If that IC costs 160 points then those guardsmen are 9 points each. If each squad has a meltagun and a lascannon they're 11.5 points each.

What a good thing the IC doesn't cost 160 points then. Incidentally, I kit my squads out with plasma and no heavy weapons.

Yup,
110 points for libby and combi plasma(blood angles, sometimes I even run book powers for the 5+ cover save, depends on match up)
4 inf squads, 4 plasma guns, and 4 power axes. No voxs, blob complete.

Corollax wrote:

 Testify wrote:
If that IC costs 160 points then those guardsmen are 9 points each. If each squad has a meltagun and a lascannon they're 11.5 points each.

What a good thing the IC doesn't cost 160 points then. Incidentally, I kit my squads out with plasma and no heavy weapons.

I use Creed and no Allies with 2-3 20-30 man blobs. I use Commissars for the Stubborn and Ld 9 and because of that I have found I do not need to use Voxes at all.

If you run one 'super' blob and your attaching a Allied IC to it, or it is the Allied detachment to another list, the point is moot. Orders can not effect Allies. Straight from the FAQ..

Q: Can an Imperial Guard unit use the Leadership of an allied Independent Character that has joined their squad for the purposes of
receiving an order? (p29)
A: No.

Q: Can an allied Independent Character benefit from Imperial Guard
Orders if they have joined an Imperial Guard Squad that successfully
receives an order? (p29)
A: No.

 BlkTom wrote:

I use Creed and no Allies with 2-3 20-30 man blobs. I use Commissars for the Stubborn and Ld 9 and because of that I have found I do not need to use Voxes at all.

If you run one 'super' blob and your attaching a Allied IC to it, or it is the Allied detachment to another list, the point is moot. Orders can not effect Allies. Straight from the FAQ..

Q: Can an Imperial Guard unit use the Leadership of an allied Independent Character that has joined their squad for the purposes of
receiving an order? (p29)
A: No.

Q: Can an allied Independent Character benefit from Imperial Guard
Orders if they have joined an Imperial Guard Squad that successfully
receives an order? (p29)
A: No.

Which saddens me, as I found the mental image of some Guard sergeant telling Draigo to "Get back in the fight!" extremely amusing.

 BlkTom wrote:
If you run one 'super' blob and your attaching a Allied IC to it, or it is the Allied detachment to another list, the point is moot. Orders can not effect Allies.

Who cares about whether the order affects your allies? I don't think anyone cares too much that the Rune Priest's already twin-linked bolter can't benefit from "Bring it Down!"

Corollax wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
If you run one 'super' blob and your attaching a Allied IC to it, or it is the Allied detachment to another list, the point is moot. Orders can not effect Allies.

Who cares about whether the order affects your allies? I don't think anyone cares too much that the Rune Priest's already twin-linked bolter can't benefit from "Bring it Down!"

Unit goes to ground

Allied IC doesn't benefit from Get Back In The Fight

I have a list with two maxed out platoons led by creed and another CCS. I find that I generally failed an order a turn. I havent done the mathammer on that, merely anecdotal experience. Given I generally blobbed the squads to at least 20 man, I put a vox on every other squad, so about 60 points of voxes in the end. Or about 12 points a turn for the re-roll, I guess it really comes down to situational scenarios. Is ensuring I can re-roll my lascannons at the land raider barelling towards me worth it...

I don't like them, the way I build my lists aims for "overspend then cut the fat" rather than "Oh, I've got X points left, time for voxes!"

I tend to approach it from "Build lean -- take as many units as possible with only their must-have upgrades, then pass a few toys around when you don't have enough left for another squad."

But then, neither approach is better than the other.

Voxes were more useful in 4th Edition. For the same cost you get Krak grenades for your entire CCS (which is might awesome when your advisor is stuck with a laspistol)

For Ld purposes, I'd rather have Kell, he is harder to kill, has a company standard, is a challenge eater and allows for the useage of the commander's leadership. Winning all around.

As for the lasgun tangent: everyone craps on them until they get maximum shots with FRFSRF. Lasguns are cheap and fun to bring in quantity. Nothing is more satisfying than watching a beefy cqc squad wilt before they can even get into close combat. Even if a couple make it into combat, the squad is robbed of its punch.

 Stormrider wrote:
Voxes were more useful in 4th Edition. For the same cost you get Krak grenades for your entire CCS (which is might awesome when your advisor is stuck with a laspistol)

For Ld purposes, I'd rather have Kell, he is harder to kill, has a company standard, is a challenge eater and allows for the useage of the commander's leadership. Winning all around.

As for the lasgun tangent: everyone craps on them until they get maximum shots with FRFSRF

Max Lasgun shots from a squad is 150.

Mathematically you'll still only kill 8.165 MEQ on average.

Not exactly stellar for a 250pt unit.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Which saddens me, as I found the mental image of some Guard sergeant telling Draigo to "Get back in the fight!" extremely amusing.

I kind of want to put Draigo in a unit with a commissar just for the 1 in 10000000 chance that the commissar gets to shoot him.

Kell does look pretty solid. Also considering a commissar if I really feel like I need that leadership in a big blob. Hmm.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Stormrider wrote:
Voxes were more useful in 4th Edition. For the same cost you get Krak grenades for your entire CCS (which is might awesome when your advisor is stuck with a laspistol)

For Ld purposes, I'd rather have Kell, he is harder to kill, has a company standard, is a challenge eater and allows for the useage of the commander's leadership. Winning all around.

As for the lasgun tangent: everyone craps on them until they get maximum shots with FRFSRF

Max Lasgun shots from a squad is 150.

Mathematically you'll still only kill 8.165 MEQ on average.

Not exactly stellar for a 250pt unit.

170 points of Tactical marines with Boltguns, flamer and Heavy Bolter will kill 3 MeQ (assumed the flamer hit 5 guys)
150 points of Guard with Lasguns under the same close-range circumstances with FRFSRF will kill 5 MeQ.

So Lasguns are useless are they? I have won so many games because of massed Lasgun fire dropping the enemy Warlord because they assume they will bounce off their toughness and armour. Underestimate the Lasgun at your peril.

Rob451 wrote:
Underestimate the Lasgun at your peril.

Quoted for emphasis. The imperial guard doesn't just roll more dice. We've got more force multipliers, too.

Corollax wrote:

Rob451 wrote:
Underestimate the Lasgun at your peril.

Quoted for emphasis. The imperial guard doesn't just roll more dice. We've got more force multipliers, too.

Yep. 10 Lasguns is laughable, but the enemy won't be laughing when he has 100 las-guns baring down his throat supported by HW's and 'Dettas.

I completely agree that lasguns are good weapons if taken en masse, but they're good only for their specific purpose. Let's look at some IG blob shooting at a common enemy character, say, a Nurgle Termie Lord. I think the math is interesting:

30 Guardsmen, 3 plasma guns (195 pts)
w/FRFSRF, not in rapid fire range:
27 lasgun hits, 1.5 plasma hits, 0.33 dead plasma gunner
4.5 lasgun wounds, 1.25 plasma wounds
0.5 unsaved lasgun wounds, 0.83 unsaved plasma wounds

w/FRFSRF, rapid fire range:
42 lasgun hits, 3 plasma hits, 0.67 dead plasma gunner
7 lasgun wounds, 2.5 plasma wounds
0.78 unsaved lasgun wounds, 1.67 unsaved plasma wounds

So if we're lucky, we put one or maybe even two wounds on the Lord with the flashlights, and that's significant, but the contribution of the special weapons is there for all to see. I've never successfully fired 100 lasguns at a single target in the same turn; I don't imagine it's easy (possible?) to get that many guys in range, but I'm sure that would be hilarious

 washout77 wrote:

Corollax wrote:

Rob451 wrote:
Underestimate the Lasgun at your peril.

Quoted for emphasis. The imperial guard doesn't just roll more dice. We've got more force multipliers, too.

Yep. 10 Lasguns is laughable, but the enemy won't be laughing when he has 100 las-guns baring down his throat supported by HW's and 'Dettas.

Guard weapons synergize with each other perfectly. Shoot your heaviest stuff first, then heavy weapons, special weapons and finally flashlights for mop up.

Hedkrakka wrote:
I completely agree that lasguns are good weapons if taken en masse, but they're good only for their specific purpose. Let's look at some IG blob shooting at a common enemy character, say, a Nurgle Termie Lord. I think the math is interesting:

30 Guardsmen, 3 plasma guns (195 pts)
w/FRFSRF, not in rapid fire range:
27 lasgun hits, 1.5 plasma hits, 0.33 dead plasma gunner
4.5 lasgun wounds, 1.25 plasma wounds
0.5 unsaved lasgun wounds, 0.83 unsaved plasma wounds

w/FRFSRF, rapid fire range:
42 lasgun hits, 3 plasma hits, 0.67 dead plasma gunner
7 lasgun wounds, 2.5 plasma wounds
0.78 unsaved lasgun wounds, 1.67 unsaved plasma wounds

So if we're lucky, we put one or maybe even two wounds on the Lord with the flashlights, and that's significant, but the contribution of the special weapons is there for all to see. I've never successfully fired 100 lasguns at a single target in the same turn; I don't imagine it's easy (possible?) to get that many guys in range, but I'm sure that would be hilarious

Your math doesn't look right... 42 hits should be causing more than 7 wounds. Shouldn't it be 14 wounds and then 4.67 unsaved wounds?

Edit: Oh wait, I did the math for shooting at Tac marines. lol.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Corollax wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
If you run one 'super' blob and your attaching a Allied IC to it, or it is the Allied detachment to another list, the point is moot. Orders can not effect Allies.

Who cares about whether the order affects your allies? I don't think anyone cares too much that the Rune Priest's already twin-linked bolter can't benefit from "Bring it Down!"

Unit goes to ground

Allied IC doesn't benefit from Get Back In The Fight

So would the character split from the unit, or would you just not be able to give that order period?

Obviously in most other situations the order not affecting allies isn't a big deal, but that going to ground thing would be an issue. At the very least, it prevents the jack-in-the-box shenanigans of going to ground behind the aegis and popping up again every turn with a runepriest in the unit

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Corollax wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
If you run one 'super' blob and your attaching a Allied IC to it, or it is the Allied detachment to another list, the point is moot. Orders can not effect Allies.

Who cares about whether the order affects your allies? I don't think anyone cares too much that the Rune Priest's already twin-linked bolter can't benefit from "Bring it Down!"

Unit goes to ground

Allied IC doesn't benefit from Get Back In The Fight

So would the character split from the unit, or would you just not be able to give that order period?

Obviously in most other situations the order not affecting allies isn't a big deal, but that going to ground thing would be an issue. At the very least, it prevents the jack-in-the-box shenanigans of going to ground behind the aegis and popping up again every turn with a runepriest in the unit

The character cannot split from the unit. As per BRB pg. 39 under INDEPENDENT CHARACTER - Joining and Leaving a Unit: "He cannot join or leave during any other phase..." and "An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is locked in combat, falling back or has gone to ground."

Therefore, since it is explicitly stated that orders cannot affect the IC, and that an IC cannot split from the unit while it is falling back (and can only split during Movement Phase), the only option is that the order cannot be given. Simple process of elimination.

 Enigwolf wrote:
the only option is that the order cannot be given. Simple process of elimination.

How did you get to that conclusion? There is another option, that the IC doesn't benefit from the order while the squad does.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
the only option is that the order cannot be given. Simple process of elimination.

How did you get to that conclusion? There is another option, that the IC doesn't benefit from the order while the squad does.

Yeah but then the IC would be on the ground while the unit around him are standing up.

I can understand how it would kind of work, but it would be a nightmare when resolving shooting attacks against that unit and could result in a lot of unneeded headaches and arguments.

Also, I find people use Lasguns for the wrong purpose. While lasguns are good for just laying more wounds on, and due to their profile they aren't particularly good at anything, I find they work best as a mop-up weapon.

Say you are shooting at Meqs. Lasguns alone won't wound or kill many at all. But, you should be shooting at a squad that just underwent fire from your Plasmaguns and other heavy weapons too. You shouldn't need to kill a whole 10 man squad with just lasguns. If your situation is like that, you screwed up and got your weapons killed or you didn't bring any in the first place (and thus also screwed up).

Also, shooting at hordes or GeQ is good too. Lasguns are much more effective at killing Ork Boyz, Firewarriors, and Gaunts than Space Marines for instance. Much easier to kill past a 6+ save with 100 shots than a 3+ one. And now that cover saves are on a model-by-model not unit-by-unit basis, those are easier to shoot past as well when shooting at hordes. Even then, we do have an order to ignore cover saves as well hahahaha

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
the only option is that the order cannot be given. Simple process of elimination.

How did you get to that conclusion? There is another option, that the IC doesn't benefit from the order while the squad does.

Yeah but then the IC would be on the ground while the unit around him are standing up.

I can understand how it would kind of work, but it would be a nightmare when resolving shooting attacks against that unit and could result in a lot of unneeded headaches and arguments.

How? Cover is by model. There's no need for confusion or arguments of any sort with that interpretation.

Corollax wrote:


How? Cover is by model. There's no need for confusion or arguments of any sort with that interpretation.

That's how I've always resolved it. Also if the IC has ATSKNF shouldn't he regroup automatically, but just fire snap shots? He doesn't need the order.

Following on from the lasguns being terrible argument. Yes statistically they aren't great, but (in my experience anyway) statistics are How often has a marine player taken a handful of his models of the table due to a few bad rolls. How often has your plasma squad either completely missed or killed themselves. How often has that killer unit been stuck in reserve. Back to my point statistics give you a good sense of what should happen, but they by no means be relied upon. Hell i'm surprised when my rolls are actually statistical.