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With guard, going along the buy small amounts line, when you start playing with them at the lower points levels you can start to build an awareness of how they work, changing it as you continue to build. You'll also be able to see how much longer turns take as you build up points, finding ways to legally cut the time required.

 Griddlelol wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Hmm, building a cheap-ish SM army to play withwhile I work on my IG one certainly is something worth looking into.

Would Space Wolves be a good idea for that? I like their lore quite a bit (it's my favorite SM chapter) and I heard they can use Leman Russ, which would be an added bonus since I can then 'recycle' those into my mech guard.

You heard wrong. They used to a while ago (3rd Ed I believe), but not anymore.

SW are great, and work as awesome allies for IG. Although they're not the cheapest marines, since everything in their codex is points cheap, and therefore money heavy. GK are the cheapest IMO, especially with Draigo-Wing.

I see :(

Anyway, mainly for the purpose of cost comparison, what would be a decent (500 point) SW starting army? Would something like Logan, 3 Wolf Guards in Terminator Armor and a Dreadnought be all right?

Since it looks like nobody wants to talk SW in my Guard thread , back to Guard questions:

-The Cadian Battleforce is said on the GW site to contain '29 miniatures, including: one Cadian Command Squad, 20 Cadian Shock Troops, three Cadian Heavy Weapon Teams and one Sentinel' Does that mean it's 29 soldiers and 1 sentinel, or 28 soldiers and 1 sentinel? Also, I haven't been able to find what Infantry weapons (I heard heavies include 3 mortar, autocannon, missile launcher, lascannon) does the box contain. Can anyone help in that regard?

-Assuming I want to make 1 CCS (so sergeant and 4 vets right?) and 2xveteran squad (sergeant and 9 vets each), what else would I need apart from the battleforce box?

-Is there any point in including heavy weapon teams in the vet squads if going for mech? Can you shoot heavy weapons out of the Chimera hatch?

I'm guessing that they're counting each heavy weapon squad as a single "miniature".

Truth be told you actually get 31 guardsmen and a sentinel (5 for command, 20 scrubs, 6 in heavy weapon squad)

As for weapons, you'll get 3 of every heavy weapon in the heavy weapon squad, probably 3 flamers/Gl's, a sniper rifle, a melta, and a plasma, along with pretty much one of all the other odd and ends upgrades. Only the command squad has really good weapons in it's box sadly, but it's a start at least.

As for SW, check out the tactics forum and see if there's something. SW and IG players are always allying the two armies, so it's a common topic. If you don't see a thread that fits what you need, just start one that says "hey I'm new to guard and wanted to use SW allies, what should I take?"

The battleforce comes with (from memory):

CCS:
5 legs, 6 torsos
1x of flamer, heavy flamer, plasma, melta, sniper, grenade launcher

Infantry:
20 legs, 20 torsos
4x flamer, heavy flamer, grenade launcher

Heavy weapon:
6 legs, 6 torsos
3x lascannon, missile launcher, autocannon, heavy bolter [plus mortar. see below]

Sentinel:
Not sure, but 1 full sentinel. Use as either scout or armoured.

So, if you want vet squads with 3 meltas or plasmas, get casting, or hit the bits sites.

[Edit: Added mortar]

 Skinnereal wrote:
The battleforce comes with (from memory):

CCS:
5 legs, 6 torsos
1x of flamer, heavy flamer, plasma, melta, sniper, grenade launcher

Infantry:
20 legs, 20 torsos
4x flamer, heavy flamer, grenade launcher

Heavy weapon:
6 legs, 6 torsos
3x lascannon, missile launcher, autocannon, heavy bolter

Sentinel:
Not sure, but 1 full sentinel. Use as either scout or armoured.

So, if you want vet squads with 3 meltas or plasmas, get casting, or hit the bits sites.

That's what I was looking for, thanks

My plan was to make/acquire the meltas separately anyway, I was just unsure if there were enough guardsmen in the box to make the two vet squads+CCS.

 Skinnereal wrote:
The battleforce comes with (from memory):

CCS:
5 legs, 6 torsos
1x of flamer, heavy flamer, plasma, melta, sniper, grenade launcher

Infantry:
20 legs, 20 torsos
4x flamer, heavy flamer, grenade launcher

Heavy weapon:
6 legs, 6 torsos
3x lascannon, missile launcher, autocannon, heavy bolter

Sentinel:
Not sure, but 1 full sentinel. Use as either scout or armoured.

So, if you want vet squads with 3 meltas or plasmas, get casting, or hit the bits sites.

HWT also includes the mortar option. Sentinel has the options of Heavy Flamer, Autocannon, Lascannon, Multilaser, Missile Launcher or Plasma Cannon (Plasma is Armoured Sentinel only).

I have BA and IG, I built a comabt ready BA force using just the Dark Venegence guys plus an extra set of troops (I had the AoBR set and a mate gave me his marines from the DV set in exchange for my DV Chaos stuff).

My IG was a combat legal-force from a Battleforce box (made up as a CCS and two vet squads and an armoured Sentinel) plus a pair of Chimera's.

Since then both armies have probably had double that again spent on them, but the BA force is a LOT larger (over 3.5K points) compared to my IG (approx 2,800 points).

Having said that I find my IG much more fun to play with and are much more customised. They die a lot but they are a great laugh, you can always just build a force of tanks anyway if you prefer as well by using the Armoured Battlegroup rules.

What about heavy weapons? Is it worth to include a heavy weapons team in a Chimera+meltavets combo?

Generally heavy weapons are worth it nowadays. Not required, but if you have the option to shoot off some lascannons early game, or whatever, you likely won't go amiss.

I'm partial to autocannon heavy weapon teams; I use one full set of them, and one full set of missiles, with my CCS sitting around issuing orders to them to take out vehicles and aircraft with some degree of reliability, and can still engage infantry effectively. Not optimal, but a good generalist fire support unit which can score, and benefits from orders moreso than standard guardsmen.

I never, however, use HWT's as parts of squads; they can only snap fire (hit on 6s) if they move, and that includes being in a moving Chimera, so you're paying additional points for something which isn't going to get to use its full power very often.

Don't discount Sentinels however; the net likes to say their garbage, and it's true, a Vendetta is a, strictly speaking, better choice, as it can drop off vet squads with all sorts of weapons and unleash plenty of hurt on its own, but some outflanking sentinels with multilasers or autocannons can almost always make back their points. Don't bother with armoured sentinels however, as they lose the ability to outflank, move through cover, all to gain frontal armour 12, woohoo.

One thing I would consider, however, is if you run a plasma vet or CCS, spend the points for Carapace; plasma has a tendency to blow up your own guys at the worst possible times, and that improved armour will keep those expensive, killy guns from killing their fragile operator quite as quickly.

If you're looking to build up your army on a semi-budget, however, consider the Manticore as an artillery option. Basilisks need to run in squadrons to be really effective, and their variants require kitbashing or Forgeworld to produce, as the plastic basilisk only builds a basilisk. Manticores, however, are single-unit death machines. They won't hurt Marines or Terminators very much, but they will reliably inflict considerable damage to any vehicle on the table due to multiple St 10 ordnance barrage per turn. To any xeno army, they're death incarnate. Unit of genestealers pop out of the flank, approaching your gunline? Fwoosh, splat. Tau bunkered down in a building? Fwoosh, splat. Ork Battlewagons charging up the table? Side armour is only 12, fwoosh, kaboom. For a single model investment, they're a great force multiplier.

Hold on to the deathstrike missile bits that come in the kit though; if you ever get to the point where you can play an apocalypse game, you can use that as a Vortex Missile, which is one of the most unkind weapons imaginable.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I'm partial to autocannon heavy weapon teams; I use one full set of them, and one full set of missiles, with my CCS sitting around issuing orders to them to take out vehicles and aircraft with some degree of reliability, and can still engage infantry effectively. Not optimal, but a good generalist fire support unit which can score, and benefits from orders moreso than standard guardsmen.

I never, however, use HWT's as parts of squads; they can only snap fire (hit on 6s) if they move, and that includes being in a moving Chimera, so you're paying additional points for something which isn't going to get to use its full power very often.

Don't discount Sentinels however; the net likes to say their garbage, and it's true, a Vendetta is a, strictly speaking, better choice, as it can drop off vet squads with all sorts of weapons and unleash plenty of hurt on its own, but some outflanking sentinels with multilasers or autocannons can almost always make back their points. Don't bother with armoured sentinels however, as they lose the ability to outflank, move through cover, all to gain frontal armour 12, woohoo.

One thing I would consider, however, is if you run a plasma vet or CCS, spend the points for Carapace; plasma has a tendency to blow up your own guys at the worst possible times, and that improved armour will keep those expensive, killy guns from killing their fragile operator quite as quickly.

If you're looking to build up your army on a semi-budget, however, consider the Manticore as an artillery option. Basilisks need to run in squadrons to be really effective, and their variants require kitbashing or Forgeworld to produce, as the plastic basilisk only builds a basilisk. Manticores, however, are single-unit death machines. They won't hurt Marines or Terminators very much, but they will reliably inflict considerable damage to any vehicle on the table due to multiple St 10 ordnance barrage per turn. To any xeno army, they're death incarnate. Unit of genestealers pop out of the flank, approaching your gunline? Fwoosh, splat. Tau bunkered down in a building? Fwoosh, splat. Ork Battlewagons charging up the table? Side armour is only 12, fwoosh, kaboom. For a single model investment, they're a great force multiplier.

Hold on to the deathstrike missile bits that come in the kit though; if you ever get to the point where you can play an apocalypse game, you can use that as a Vortex Missile, which is one of the most unkind weapons imaginable.

Suggest autocannons.
Suggests HWS's, and discounts HWT's in Infantry Squads.
Suggests Sentinels.
Suggests Carapace.
Discounts Medusa due to kitbashing.

So, by MajorStoffer's post I assume I can fire Heavy Weapons from the hatch of a Chimera, right(although only snap firing when the Chimera moves)?

If so, by my understanding it's a choice between shooting 3 meltas and 2 lasguns, and shooting 3 meltas, 1 lascannon/whatever other heavy weapon (snapfiring most of the time) and 1 lasgun, correct?

LordBlades wrote:
So, by MajorStoffer's post I assume I can fire Heavy Weapons from the hatch of a Chimera, right(although only snap firing when the Chimera moves)?

If so, by my understanding it's a choice between shooting 3 meltas and 2 lasguns, and shooting 3 meltas, 1 lascannon/whatever other heavy weapon (snapfiring most of the time) and 1 lasgun, correct?

Correct, indeed.

All right then. So assuming lasgun vs lascannon:

Lascannon snapfires and needs a 6 to hit, Lasgun used by Vets with BS 4 needs 3+ and gets 2 shots due to rapid fire assuming the target is in melta range (12") so a lot more likely to hit. Exact percentages would be 17% for lascannon and 75% for lasgun (at least 1 hit) and 25%(2 hits).

When it comes to dealing damage however, Lasgun needs 6+ on anything tougher than a regular human (t3). No idea how many units with t3 or lower are there though(only have access to rulebook and IG codex atm). Lascannon needs a 2+ on pretty much anything (t7 or lower; again no idea how many t8-10 units are there). That would put the wound inflicting probability to 14% for lascannon and 12% (at least 1 wound), 4%(2 wounds) for lasgun.

Even discouting the Lascannon's AP2, it's still more likely to cause 1 wound to anything with toughness 4-7 (and probably outside that range too if you count armor save), so is there something I'm missing or there's no reason to not take a lascannon if I have the points to afford it?

nope, I do with my guys

After some more research and I'm starting to wonder if the battleforce wouldn't be a bit of a cash waste for me. For similar cash I can get 1 CCS, 2 vet squads and 3 heavy weapon teams separately.
In the long run, I got the feeling the ton of extra bits in the CCS squad box would prove more useful than the sentinel

Also, I've finally managed to track down a group that plays 40k around here

Well, the battleforce box comes with the 1 CCS, 2 infantry squads, and 3 heavy weapon teams. So you are literally getting the sentinel for free. So there's really no downside.

I think that sentinels, along with some of the other much maligned IG units, get an undeserved bad rap. If used properly they can be effective. They're just not as point-and-click as Vendettas (which are underpriced and overpowered, and thus likely to get nerfed when the Guard get a codex update -- something to keep in mind, although we probably have a good 3 years+ before that happens).

 NWansbutter wrote:
Well, the battleforce box comes with the 1 CCS, 2 infantry squads, and 3 heavy weapon teams. So you are literally getting the sentinel for free. So there's really no downside.

I thought getting the sentinel was the downside.

I'd prefer to have more bodies or a Chimera than the sentinel. I think they just put the sentinels in there to get rid of them.

 Blaggard wrote:
I'd prefer to have more bodies or a Chimera than the sentinel. I think they just put the sentinels in there to get rid of them.

Probably. I don't like to be too pessimistic about GW business practices, or I'd probably quit the hobby. Although it does strike me as odd that the IG battleforce along with Necrons are the only battleforces that don't have a transport. A chimera would have been awesome.

I personally started my Guard army using the battleforce and a trio of chimera's so i had an almost instant mech vet force.

Special weapons are being made as and when once I get around to modify all the spare bits into the weapons I need.

Sentinels are probably the cheapest way to get some weapons into the guard Codex but the only way to use them without conflicting with the Vendetta is to use the Elysian rules but then you dont have the right weapons options to make an Elysian Sentinel!