Vindicare Assassin - Now With Extra Awesomesauce

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**Enceladus**

Makes sense, but also makes no difference to the case in point.

**Makutsu**

yes it does, an unsaved wound only happens when the save is failed. A wound is before any saves are taken

**Enceladus**

But i'm not talking about an unsaved wound, i'm talking about an allocated wound as per this post (amended unsaved Wounds):

Enceladus wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
No, that's not the case, maybe you don't want your IC or your character who has maybe a special weapon to take a wound.

Since once you start allocation onto 1 model, you have to keep allocating to it first until it dies.

Also, he doesn't get to use the 2+ save because it's not resolved against the terminator, it's resolved against the inquisitor.
All vindicare does is allowing the ability to allocate wounds not unsaved wounds.

The Deadshot rule as written states: "Wounds caused by the Vindicare's shooting attacks are always allocated by the Vindicare's controlling player"

Look Out Sir! rules state: "When a Wound is allocated to one of your characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he's allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt. To make a Look Out, Sir attempt, roll a D6. On a roll of 3 or less, the Look Out Sir attempt fails. On a roll of 4+, the Look Out, Sir attempt is successful. You must pick a model from the same unit within 6" and resolve the Wound against them instead."

So going by the rules as written the Vindicare allocates the wound to the Inquisitor, the Terminator jumps in to save on 5+, and if he fails, the Vindicare then re-allocates the wound back to the Inquisitor, instead of the Terminator, as per the FAQ clarification. The Look Out, Sir rule is all about transferring a wound to an intervening model instead of the original target. The FAQ still allows this transferral for the purposes of the actual saving throw, but once it's failed the Wound is then allocated back to the Inquisitor by the Vindicare's controlling player.

So when the Vindi hits, he then Wounds and it is allocated to the Inquisitor, then another model transfers it to himself in order to try and save it on his own statline, then if it fails you get to do what you like with it, either kill the intervening model or throw it back onto the Inquisitor.

**Makutsu**

I understand what you are talking about but that's not the case.

Vindicare wounds.
Vindicare allocates.
Model takes LoS!
LoS! passes.
Vindicare can choose to reallocate at this point.
Model takes save.
Fails save take wound.

After taking the save you can't allocate it again.
Then that would be super overpowered if I can shoot at some really weak save model and then wait for it to fail so I can reallocate it to someone else.
An unsaved wound != wound.

**Grey Templar**

So whats the verdict?

Does LoS mean the hit on the initial IC has to get put on someone else if the LoS is passed? Or can I simply choose to leave it on the IC regardless of the LoS result?

**Enceladus**

Makutsu wrote:
I understand what you are talking about but that's not the case.

Vindicare wounds.
Vindicare allocates.
Model takes LoS!
LoS! passes.
Vindicare can choose to reallocate at this point.
Model takes save.
Fails save take wound.

After taking the save you can't allocate it again.
Then that would be super overpowered if I can shoot at some really weak save model and then wait for it to fail so I can reallocate it to someone else.
An unsaved wound != wound.

That doesn't make a great deal of sense given the wording of the FAQ though. Surely if another model couldn't jump in and attempt to take the save, the FAQ reply would have been 'No Look Out, Sir attempts may be made against a shot fired by model with the Deadshot special rule'. Why bother allowing a LoS roll to be made and passed in the first place if nothing happens when it is? Gotta love the clarity of the reply in response to the question. In any case, if i've shot at the Inquisitor and a Terminator jumps in to save on a 5+ and fails, it's only ever going back to the Inquisitor. Why would I want it to go somewhere that I could have put it in the first place and avoided the LoS attempt completely?

**Makutsu**

It's so that your opponent can screw himself over by taking a LoS! save.

**ClassicCarraway**

Enceladus wrote:
But i'm not talking about an unsaved wound, i'm talking about an allocated wound as per this post (amended unsaved Wounds):

Enceladus wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
No, that's not the case, maybe you don't want your IC or your character who has maybe a special weapon to take a wound.

Since once you start allocation onto 1 model, you have to keep allocating to it first until it dies.

Also, he doesn't get to use the 2+ save because it's not resolved against the terminator, it's resolved against the inquisitor.
All vindicare does is allowing the ability to allocate wounds not unsaved wounds.

The Deadshot rule as written states: "Wounds caused by the Vindicare's shooting attacks are always allocated by the Vindicare's controlling player"

Look Out Sir! rules state: "When a Wound is allocated to one of your characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he's allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt. To make a Look Out, Sir attempt, roll a D6. On a roll of 3 or less, the Look Out Sir attempt fails. On a roll of 4+, the Look Out, Sir attempt is successful. You must pick a model from the same unit within 6" and resolve the Wound against them instead."

So going by the rules as written the Vindicare allocates the wound to the Inquisitor, the Terminator jumps in to save on 5+, and if he fails, the Vindicare then re-allocates the wound back to the Inquisitor, instead of the Terminator, as per the FAQ clarification. The Look Out, Sir rule is all about transferring a wound to an intervening model instead of the original target. The FAQ still allows this transferral for the purposes of the actual saving throw, but once it's failed the Wound is then allocated back to the Inquisitor by the Vindicare's controlling player.

So when the Vindi hits, he then Wounds and it is allocated to the Inquisitor, then another model transfers it to himself in order to try and save it on his own statline, then if it fails you get to do what you like with it, either kill the intervening model or throw it back onto the Inquisitor.

I don't think that's right at all. Basically, if the LOS test is taken and passed, it doesn't matter, because the Vindicaire's controlling player gets to allocate the shot back to the character. No saves are taken by the LOS model, as the wound was never allocated to it in the first place. The LOS test is not the save, but the ability to try and take the would allocation.

Seriously, its pretty straight forward. Not sure what all the debate is about.

**Makutsu**

He's just arguing about what's the point of using a LoS! if it doesn't do anything

**Enceladus**

I just find it hard to believe that the intended rule is for the Vindi to shoot, hit, wound, then have your opponent pointlessly roll dice for LoS only for the Vindi's player to point, laugh and blow the original target's face off, as appealing as this sounds. Surely if the opponent is still allowed to attempt and pass a LoS as per the FAQ, it serves a purpose?

**Grey Templar**

Well, it appears the purpose of the FAQ was that the LoS is useless against a Sniper.

**Makutsu**

Yes. so that you can remove 2 invul saves with shield breaker.
Perfect no?

I think denying LoS! or all sniper weapons deny LoS! would have been a better choice, but GW rules are like that.

**Enceladus**

I'll just work on the basis that LoS is useless against my Vindicare tbh, that's what makes most 'real world' sense. Best of luck seeing the shot coming, what with him being a sniper assassin and all...

**Makutsu**

that's how all snipers should be.

**Luide**

Grey Templar wrote:
Well, it appears the purpose of the FAQ was that the LoS is useless against a Vindicare.

Fixed your post. LOS! works just fine against other Snipers.

Point was to return Vindicare's Deadshot special rule to same standing as it was in 5e. Reason why it was not given to all Snipers is simple: whole fluff point of "Look Out Sir!" is to avoid snipers etc.

**Enceladus**

Back onto a point raised earlier... A Vindi manning an Icarus Lascannon, although losing his specialised rifle rounds, would now most definitely be the game's most ridiculous character killer. A 96" range, hitting on a 2, wounding at strength 9 AP2, with no LoS rolls allowed. Anything that's T4 or below and not an Eternal Warrior is getting vaporised, generally on a roll of 2 to hit and 2 to wound. Intriguing... Inside of 36" though, he's better off firing his Exitus Rifle with his special rules ammo.

**Icelord**

Enceladus wrote:
Back onto a point raised earlier... A Vindi manning an Icarus Lascannon, although losing his specialised rifle rounds, would now most definitely be the game's most ridiculous character killer. A 96" range, hitting on a 2, wounding at strength 9 AP2, with no LoS rolls allowed. Anything that's T4 or below and not an Eternal Warrior is getting vaporised, generally on a roll of 2 to hit and 2 to wound. Intriguing... Inside of 36" though, he's better off firing his Exitus Rifle with his special rules ammo.

I dont see how being inside 36 inches it would be better to use his rifle. Isnt ID insane? So why just do 1 or 2 wounds.

He is super good again at sniping characters with no inv save like librarians not in term armor.

**Grey Templar**

Well, it depends on the target. He could use a Turbo-penetrator round to do 2 wounds instead of 1. And the Shield Breaker might be a good idea, especially on an HQ with a 4+ or better invuln.

**Enceladus**

Exactly my point. Sometimes he can do 2 wounds per shot, and sometimes he can completely remove a pesky invuln. Say for example he's firing the lascannon at Lysander, who keeps shrugging off the shot with his 3+ invuln save... shoot him with a shield-breaker round and bye bye Storm Shield.

**Icelord**

That's the same thing you had to do to Lysander anyways.

**Makutsu**

It's not really worth it, cheapest you would need the Aegis + the gun which is 100 points meaning that you get a 245 point thing that can only shoot 1 shot per turn, killing something with a very high possibility.

If you run him + a dread with the cannons it would be a bit more expensive but much more effective.
Just by himself, he can outflank then use his pistol on a tank, then charge the unit, or just pop tanks much more reliably than the Icarus gun.

IDing is still hard since generally most HQs have an invul which probably will take 2 turns to have a guarenteed kill.

The range is the only thing that it has benefits though, but losing the ability to be set on top of ruins, your LoS is actually pretty limited depending on the set up.

**Grey Templar**

The Lascannon is cheaper than the Quadgun. Its only 85 points for the Aegis+Lascannon.

**DakotaBlue**

Vindicare + Icarus is really viable now, if you counter the points with cheap henchmen. It is only one shot per turn, but that shot is likely to kill whatever he wants.

**Makutsu**

Grey Templar wrote:
The Lascannon is cheaper than the Quadgun. Its only 85 points for the Aegis+Lascannon.

The quad gun gives you a chance of wounding around twice(rounded up) with 3+ armor save, besides the range the Vindicare can take out invuls meaning if positioned carefuly there will be no save at all and a guaranteed wound almost at 100%. Also, he can deal 2 wounds around the same chance as well, and the range isn't that much better than him for 85 points.

Vindicare + Icarus is really viable now, if you counter the points with cheap henchmen. It is only one shot per turn, but that shot is likely to kill whatever he wants.

A normal 4+ cover save renders you only get 3 kills average in the game. If I see you with that thing I would definitely at least hide in cover.

Also, both guns are limited to LOS, terrain could be tall and block off a lot of LOS. If I remember correctly Battlements are placed before Terrain, so your opponent could block off your LOS on purpose.
At that price it's probably better to get 2 psyfle dreads and do much better of a job.

**Grey Templar**

The Lascannon does have a 96" range. Plus it benifits from his BS8. Hits on 2+ with a 4+ reroll. So real handy against flyers and vehicles outside of the Vindicare's 36" Turbopen range.

And cover is now normally 5+. 4+ only around Aegis lines and Ruins.

**Makutsu**

I think the Icarus is only at best a benefit for Anti-Air and have extra range.
Tank hunting isn't not as good as the Vindicare's bullet.
HQ sniping, doesn't remove the invul which could be benefitial or not depending on which HQ is being fought.

Maybe it's my FLGS, we normally have everything as ruins instead of 5+ area terrain. Craters are also 4+ cover saves.

**Grey Templar**

Of course the Turbo-penetrator is better than the lascannon, but only against ground targets within 36"

Outside of that or with a Flyer the Lascannon is better.

I'll be using him more on the lascannon, but I'll also have Crowe nearby too to man the gun if the Vindicare will be using his rifle.

**jegsar**

That is only your FLGS,

regardless the sniping of characters is amazing since it's S9 and will ID most characters hitting and wounding on 2s. even with a 3++ that is better then a 1/5 change to pop 95% of characters, I'll take those odds.

with a 4++ cover it goes to a about a 1/3 chance.

**Grey Templar**

Well yeah, the lascannon will be superior unless you are looking to strip invulns or the enemy has EW.

In which case you may go for the Turbopenetrator for the chance of causing 2 wounds.

**Makutsu**

If that's the case, might as well buy the Fortress of Redemption and have 2 assassins man the missle and the gun, the krakstorm-missle with allocatable wounds is much more insane than having a lascannon allocating all to the IC. And it doesn't scatter that much.

Strength 8 AP3 is going to kill a good amount of ICs with no Cover save since it is barrage.