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 Makutsu wrote:
If that's the case, might as well buy the Fortress of Redemption and have 2 assassins man the missle and the gun, the krakstorm-missle with allocatable wounds is much more insane than having a lascannon allocating all to the IC. And it doesn't scatter that much.

Strength 8 AP3 is going to kill a good amount of ICs with no Cover save since it is barrage.

This is true, though barrage doesn't directly ignore cover, you just check for cover from center of blast instead of where the fortress is. GKs are still op but the fortress is at least a LOT of points especially with 2x vinds.

At least 2k+ actually, since you can only take one vindicare per allowed FOC selection group.

at 2K you can still only take 1 vindicare, but I mean take other assassins since they have a BS8 as well, just no deadshot.

Since if just aiming for AA anyways, a vindicare on the Lascannons is just a waste.

Yeah, so if anything is in the open you can pick them apart wherever you like

does this mean Sgt telion is the same?

 Makutsu wrote:
at 2K you can still only take 1 vindicare, but I mean take other assassins since they have a BS8 as well, just no deadshot.

Since if just aiming for AA anyways, a vindicare on the Lascannons is just a waste.

Yeah, so if anything is in the open you can pick them apart wherever you like

well, thats not he's there for. hes there for that, plus his sniper goodness and all the stuff that he can do. It just lets him threaten flyers. I mean, the highest BS model in the army on the Lascannon is a pretty good idea IMO.

Grey Templar wrote:well, thats not he's there for. hes there for that, plus his sniper goodness and all the stuff that he can do. It just lets him threaten flyers. I mean, the highest BS model in the army on the Lascannon is a pretty good idea IMO.

Not really, the lascannon itself is twin-linked so ideally you want the cheapest model you can find with a Ballistic skill of 5. (and/or other special rules you can exploit.) Telion would be ideal, though i don't believe he's been FAQed to ignore LoS. (yet)

its only twin-linked on the fortress.

Grey Templar wrote:its only twin-linked on the fortress.

Yep, that is what the most recent conversation above this was discussing.

he goes decently with an ADL too though given his stealth stacks nicely with the cover save there.

3+ cover save is ok I guess...

I still wonder how Krakstorm Missiles work with Vindicare,
I could essentially pick off the entire units special weapon, character and their IC with that thing...

Yep! (beats a 4+ invuln vs ranged attacks anyway) And then do it again the next turn to some other squad you want to see decimated. Costs a lot though, so hopefully you have enough board control to contest objectives and what have you.

It's only about 500 points, not that much

I'd probably put the objectives beside and behind the fortress and just bunker up with Psydreads or something beside it

Hide some GKSS behind it and just shoot and bomb away.

Just wondering is a psydread taller then the lower parts of the fortress?

No, the Fortress is fething huge. You can completely hide a Land Raider behind it.

These are fun ideas to toy around with, but they don't work often in real games.

I ran a list for awhile that had Mordrak as the Primary HQ with Lysander as my allied HQ. It had a Vindicare and Telion in it. Lysander even boosts a ruin to a 3+, giving the Vindicare a 2+ cover save. Great synergy, right?

Not so much. In reality, 90% of games Telion would be shooting at vehicles with the lascannon, because it was more important to take those out, and the Vindicare was focus fired. Even with a 2+ cover save, he still dies pretty fast to a focused dakka barrage, since he's still only a 2 wound model. Sure, I had a couple games where the Vindicare was outrageously effective, but he's still an overpriced model for what he does.

I'd have to completely disagree that he's too expensive for what he is. Any model that is so threatening to the enemy that they feel the need to make it a bullet sponge is worth 145 points easily. If you can make 1 single model soak up 2-3 small units of firepower, or 1-2 large units, he's already made his points back by having the rest of your army avoid being shot at. If in the mean time he can survive long enough to get you a Warlord kill for a nice little Victory point, or remove any vehicle from the table worth more than his own points cost, he's paid for himself and then some.

At 1999+ points this guy simply has to be in my list, he's ridiculously threatening. Remember, sometimes you can be half way to winning a battle if you can screw with your opponent psychologically, or throw a spanner into his tactics,

Also, the Vindicare is not by himself in the table. If you add Coteaz and some henchmen near, you can bless him with adivinance powers, like the ignore cover one.

The Vindicare is almost an auto-include for his point cost and value.

No other model has the same chance of one shotting any vehicle in the game.

DakotaBlue wrote:
Also, the Vindicare is not by himself in the table. If you add Coteaz and some henchmen near, you can bless him with adivinance powers, like the ignore cover one.

The ignore cover power targets the psyker and his unit only, and he cannot join an assassin.

Wouldn't go that far, there are plenty of options that can penetrate a vehicle on one hit. He is a definately psychological factor on the battlefield though, i find my opponents have avoided large swaths of the table just because i deployed one in the area.

Wouldn't say he is an auto-include, but he is definately worthwhile if you can keep him in range without exposing him to too much return fire.

Nothing has the same chance as he does though.

He hits on a 2+ with a 4+ reroll. Thats 91% accuracy.

Then he has an average penetration roll of 17(4d6 average of 14+3 for being a sniper rifle)

And finally he is AP1, so +2 on the chart.

Actually he average 18.3333333 on a penetration roll because his rifle is also rending meaning any of the 4d6 pen dice can get the extra D3 from rolling a 6. Land raiders are a light snack for him and I honestly think that's the best way for him to earn his points back(unless you can get an easy warlord point against an HQ with no cover or invulnerable save)

 hyv3mynd wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
Also, the Vindicare is not by himself in the table. If you add Coteaz and some henchmen near, you can bless him with adivinance powers, like the ignore cover one.

The ignore cover power targets the psyker and his unit only, and he cannot join an assassin.

Welp, I slipped there without checking it in the BRB.

Enceladus wrote:
I'd have to completely disagree that he's too expensive for what he is. Any model that is so threatening to the enemy that they feel the need to make it a bullet sponge is worth 145 points easily. If you can make 1 single model soak up 2-3 small units of firepower, or 1-2 large units, he's already made his points back by having the rest of your army avoid being shot at. If in the mean time he can survive long enough to get you a Warlord kill for a nice little Victory point, or remove any vehicle from the table worth more than his own points cost, he's paid for himself and then some.

At 1999+ points this guy simply has to be in my list, he's ridiculously threatening. Remember, sometimes you can be half way to winning a battle if you can screw with your opponent psychologically, or throw a spanner into his tactics,

The problem is that it doesn't take that much to kill him. A single tactical squad in a drop pod with nothing but bolters will average 1.85 wounds on him in 3+ cover, let alone anything that is better suited than a tactical squad.

And yeah, he has an outrageous penetration roll. He will probably always hit, and probably always pen, but he still doesn't ignore cover. Even a single successful smoke cover save is a bad thing for him, because he only gets 5 shots a game (give or take depending on the end of turn game rolls). What about against Tau vehicles, or Dark Eldar, with their silly amount of cover? Or the new DA where basically everything has a 3+ or 4+ cover save? Or Tyranids who have wounds to spare aplenty? Or anything sitting behind an ADL (which is everything nowadays), which automatically reduces his success to less than 50%?

I just think its important to realize that he has limitations. Is he a good unit? Yeah, he's not bad. For his points cost would I go with something else? Definitely. His efficacy is very reliant on what army you are playing, who is going first, what the terrain set up is like, etc. I personally don't like to use a unit that is so situational.

MadmanMSU wrote:

A single tactical squad in a drop pod with nothing but bolters will average 1.85 wounds on him in 3+ cover, let alone anything that is better suited than a tactical squad.

Gotta get some Warp Quake drumming around him

But yeah, I hear ya.

Still, if you play icarus vindicare, you will have a GKSS near, warp quaking, or Coteaz I've been expecting you. Also he can shoot the icarus to the pod before the tacticals deploy, something that can kill one marine at least too.

It's not the vindicare by himself, it's his sinergy with other units.

You fire interceptor at the end of the movement phase so the tacticals would already have deployed.

magicafiend wrote:
You fire interceptor at the end of the movement phase so the tacticals would already have deployed.

Not interceptor, Corteaz special rule

The marines still get out of the pod first, but coteaz and squad can shoot both.