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@korghan:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because RoW is still way OP, not to mention Eldar are now the only Psykers with built in Perils protection.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Again, I do not apoligize for my GK awsomness. After 2 editions of suckage I am finally awsome. Your tears give me strength and remind me of what happened in the past.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Have you perchance seen what 6th did to the GK codex?

I don't think any more explanation is needed, but here goes...
Nerfing one of the weakest armies by reducing something they are supposedly best at and removing their fluffy, not game-breaking-powerful ability. Removing support capability from support heavy army.
"I know how it feels to have a weak army so right now that mine finally isn't, I'm happy that people are in situation I hated and their army is further gimped". Fastest way to love GK.

And you are trying to convey what point exactly? I wasn't saying that I agreed with the nerf. I think it's a bit silly. I have never heard anyone say that this ability needed to be 'fixed'. I was merely saying that the GK codex is, in no way, OP.

 korghan wrote:
If it isn't fun than why are you playing to begin with?

That's why my Eldar are now in storage

- Breaking our skimmers with 6th Ed (bye mechdar) = ouch
- Disallowing going to ground if an Avatar is in range (bye footdar) = gah ok
- Making Holofields useless via hullpoints (bye heavy skimmers) = *cough cough* enough already
- Ruling Banshees have AP3 power weapons (bye Banshees) = another one bites the dust...
- Giving CSM a Dragon that can autogib the rest of our troops anywhere on the board (bye GJB, pathfinder/ranger) = Umm are you serious?
- Making Farseers complete unable to work if embarked = Dude... did Eldar kill your parents or something?


GW has made it clear that there is better games for me out there. Love my Eldar models, love the fluff, but an abuse victim eventually needs to leave the relationship.

At least my last game with a Farseer embarked in a transport was against Dark Eldar. Couldn't touch me. By Turn 3 almost all his anti-tank was gone, and all he had left were Poison weapons. The only unit I lost was a squad of Pathfinders who got assaulted.

 BlueDagger wrote:

 korghan wrote:
If it isn't fun than why are you playing to begin with?

That's why my Eldar are now in storage

- Breaking our skimmers with 6th Ed (bye mechdar) = ouch
- Disallowing going to ground if an Avatar is in range (bye footdar) = gah ok
- Making Holofields useless via hullpoints (bye heavy skimmers) = *cough cough* enough already
- Ruling Banshees have AP3 power weapons (bye Banshees) = another one bites the dust...
- Giving CSM a Dragon that can autogib the rest of our troops anywhere on the board (bye GJB, pathfinder/ranger) = Umm are you serious?
- Making Farseers complete unable to work if embarked = Dude... did Eldar kill your parents or something?


GW has made it clear that there is better games for me out there. Love my Eldar models, love the fluff, but an abuse victim eventually needs to leave the relationship.

Wow.. Ouch. Well hopefully a new dex will be coming down the pipe soon. Idk about your local stores but mine usually use house rules to undo some of GW foul ups and they likely will here as well. For example at our store you role the D6 for your warlord trait but you get to pick the table you want to apply it to.

That is the major problem, 6th ED broke a lot of our stuff, not the codex. Transport skimmers in general are hurting because of the 3+ to hit a vehicle in CC, can score while inside, and can't disembark if you move over 6". So a codex won't fix those without crazy special rules.

Likely instead what will happen is that we will see a pile of point cost reductions, some stat/special rule tweaks, but the majority of bringing us back into the competitive light will be new units. Give GW's current pricetag I'm not tossing $250+ to make my 10,000pts+ eldar army good again. We aren't the same as SM/Crons that have 3+ armor T4 so their foot troops are ok out of transports. We fall into the same realm as DE that get gibbed out of transports. Buy these 3 fliers, these new tough troops, and this new transport that is open topped.

Ok so i see that there are different opinion on the faq working. Let me just point that this is a faq, not an amendement nor an errata. So, imho, it can't change what stated by the brb (i can cast to an embarked unit).

I would also like some opinion on hwypi. I think that "i can't cast outside" it's fair, what do you think? Just bringing us into line whith other races psykers. "I can't cast while embarked" seems unfair and fluff killing.

Eldarcannon wrote:
Ok so i see that there are different opinion on the faq working. Let me just point that this is a faq, not an amendement nor an errata. So, imho, it can't change what stated by the brb (i can cast to an embarked unit).

I would also like some opinion on hwypi. I think that "i can't cast outside" it's fair, what do you think? Just bringing us into line whith other races psykers. "I can't cast while embarked" seems unfair and fluff killing.

FAQ trumps BRB and Codex as it's an official document that is the newest "clarification" of how the rules work. Any TO or Game store that decides otherwise is welcome to do so, however at that point they are the exception to the rule.

Exactly. GW has changed rules via FAQ many times. They aren't too precise about what's really a clarification vs. an errata.

Eldarcannon wrote:
Ok so i see that there are different opinion on the faq working. Let me just point that this is a faq, not an amendement nor an errata. So, imho, it can't change what stated by the brb (i can cast to an embarked unit).

So you think FAQs can't change rules? You're absolutely wrong.

I would also like some opinion on hwypi. I think that "i can't cast outside" it's fair, what do you think? Just bringing us into line whith other races psykers. "I can't cast while embarked" seems unfair and fluff killing.

I don't have a problem allowing an Eldar opponent to target the embarked unit or the transport.
I don't really even have a problem ignoring this change altogether, but that's a different story.

Yeah, that Eldar FAQ ruling was very poorly written. It is pretty obvious their intention was to give Eldar powers same limits for casting inside transports as normal blessings and maledictions do. But instead, they accidentally removed the ability completely....

 korghan wrote:
Yea it seems Eldar kind of got the shaft. Hopefully it will be FAQ'd. But why is everyone so quick to shout cheese at the GK codex? I will admit that it was pretty broken in 5th. Initiative 6 Ap 2 weapons on a terminator with 2 wounds + wound shenanigans was just plain unfair. However Draigowing is far from a tourney winner now. Purifiers come with the Crowe tax plus an additional HQ to hide as Crowe isn't an IC. Coteaz is good but IG can do a better job than most henchmen builds. With the changes to assaulting after disembarking death cultists lost a lot of steam. The vindicare was worthless up until this point and is still hit and miss for an elite choice.

Is the GK codex good? Yes.
Is it broken OMG CHEESE? Far from it.
Also not all of us were bandwagon jumpers. Some of us choose our armies for fluff and cool factor.

Again, I agree the Eldar codex needs a boost but crying because another codex is better than yours is just plain childish. Play to have fun not to win all of the time. If it isn't fun than why are you playing to begin with?

Well I have a gray knight army that I used to play and when the Ward codex came out it left such a bad taste in my mouth, I have not played them since.
They are still OP with all the special issue things that paladins can get, storm ravens are a super solid flyer and hard to take out
No they are not as op as Necrons, but I would say they take second place for cheese and op

Paladins are a massive point sink that don't score outside of Draigowing or using GS. Using GS keeps you from picking much more point efficient HQ's. Paladins die in droves to things that kill all other terminators. Also factor in that against ranged weapons a paladin can only boast a 5++ invulnerable save. Without the old wound allocation Paladins just arent competitive. 2 wounds means nothing to S8 weapons.The fact that a stormraven is solid doesn't make it OP. IG have the flyer market locked down fairly well.

I know it's hard to imagine after the OP 5th edition GK but now we are a good codex. Not a great one.

You can believe that but the majority of us still believe it is op and . Try moving a draigo wing squad of paladins with an Apothecary off an objective or take away the Relic from them. Vendettas are cheaper but not as good as Storm Ravens with hulls that nerf melta shots, plus it is an assault vehicle so they can move and drop their squad and assault out of it. Better than the vendetta.

Face it take most Ward codexes, but esp. Crons and GK and you have the biggest op and GW has to offer... I hope Ward stays with Fantasy codexes.

Not the majority, at all. Paladins are fairly easy to move off objectives now - 5++/5+ FNP against the mounds of plasma out there

Youre living in 5th if you think paladins are OP. Vendettas not as good as SR? Really?

I am not living in 5th and 2 people do not make a majority.
A stormraven outperform a vendetta you bet. Point sink wise, yes the vendetta is the cheapest most affective flyer for points.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I am not living in 5th and 2 people do not make a majority

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:You can believe that but the majority of us still believe it is op and

Then surely one person makes even less of a majority.

Paladins have 2 wounds, have grenades - no other terminator does, they have pp that give them higher st. Once again, not as powerful as Necrons, but if you think GK is balanced with the majority of codexes you are smoking something


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One person does make less of a majority if I was the only one that thought that way Chimp.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
One person does make less of a majority if I was the only one that thought that way Chimp.

If you can assume that you're not the only one who thinks your way, how can you assume only two people oppose you?

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I am not living in 5th and 2 people do not make a majority.
A stormraven outperform a vendetta you bet. Point sink wise, yes the vendetta is the cheapest most affective flyer for points.

Vendetta outperforms the SR at killing every single other flyer in the game. 3 TL Lascannon > 1 TL LC + AC. "effective" as well

You have made a classic logical fallacy in assuming everyone but the people directly disagreeing with you support you. You are wrong. In fact, claiming GK are OP in 6th is enough to get people laughing out loud.

The new wound allocation rules, AP3 halberds, and the reduction in FNP value from 4+ to 5+, have gutted paladins as a viable build. THis is fact. Nothing you can state will alter this.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
One person does make less of a majority if I was the only one that thought that way Chimp.

If you can assume that you're not the only one who thinks your way, how can you assume only two people oppose you?

I am not assuming things, that would make an ass out of you and me...

I am just taking it from many people I have talked to at my FLGS and on Dakka, but if you would like me to start a thread and a poll we can do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I am not living in 5th and 2 people do not make a majority.
A stormraven outperform a vendetta you bet. Point sink wise, yes the vendetta is the cheapest most affective flyer for points.

Vendetta outperforms the SR at killing every single other flyer in the game. 3 TL Lascannon > 1 TL LC + AC. "effective" as well

You have made a classic logical fallacy in assuming everyone but the people directly disagreeing with you support you. You are wrong. In fact, claiming GK are OP in 6th is enough to get people laughing out loud.

The new wound allocation rules, AP3 halberds, and the reduction in FNP value from 4+ to 5+, have gutted paladins as a viable build. THis is fact. Nothing you can state will alter this.

Wow so impressive, yes FNP took a hit for EVERYONE not just Paladins
I have not made a logical fallacy - but I am proud of you for using that word
GK not overpowered, how competitively do you play?

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
One person does make less of a majority if I was the only one that thought that way Chimp.

If you can assume that you're not the only one who thinks your way, how can you assume only two people oppose you?

I am not assuming things, that would make an ass out of you and me...

I am just taking it from many people I have talked to at my FLGS and on Dakka, but if you would like me to start a thread and a poll we can do this.

Except you are assuming things. You made a comment about two people not making a majority and then established a mysterious following of people who agree with you when called on how you were the only person saying what you are saying. You are assuming that there are only 2 people who think Paladins are not OP, which is wrong to start with since I happen to agree with nos and korghan, but in light of your confessed following of like-minded people who think Paladins are OP, how can you even begin to assume that there isn't a similar group who think the opposite? You claim to know this 'majority' but you have yet to provide any evidence of it whatsoever.

Who is this mysterious "many people"? How does your FLGS and Dakka make up the majority of the warhammer 40k community worldwide? If you want to start a thread then be my guest, but it will prove nothing other who is in the majority on Dakka, not the majority as a whole.

How do you know you are the majority? You do not.
But let's keep bantering back in forth it is achieving so much.. I am so glad that you agree with the other 2 koodos to you. You are amazing

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
How do you know you are the majority? You do not.
But let's keep bantering back in forth it is achieving so much.. I am so glad that you agree with the other 2 koodos to you. You are amazing

Cite where I said that I am in the majority, because I don't believe I did. What you are failing to address, however, is the fact that you made a baseless statement claiming that the majority of players think that paladins are OP, and that you have been called on its inaccuracy.

There are 3 groups:
A) GK are still OP and cheesy
B) GK are still competitive, but with the changes are not OMG army from 5th edition.
C) have no clue having not played as/against GK in 6th edition (which I have a feeling is the true majority).


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And I hope you guys are happy. All this talk about has made me hungry. Now I just need a bottle opener and some crackers...

I did say that you said the majority... My claim is not baseless just because you do not know how many people have that opinion, I do not have a full census from everybody, but then nor do you. If you want to use your argument, then no one could ever say the majority as we would never have all the peoples opinions. calling someone's claims baseless is inaccurate as it is a matter of perspective on the base population in which you form your opinion. If you want me to say that I have polled everyone, I have not. What is a fact is the way this thread has gone way off base. I am not placing blame. If you wish to continue your rants go ahead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
There are 3 groups:
A) GK are still OP and cheesy
B) GK are still competitive, but with the changes are not OMG army from 5th edition.
C) have no clue having not played as/against GK in 6th edition (which I have a feeling is the true majority).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I hope you guys are happy. All this talk about has made me hungry. Now I just need a bottle opener and some crackers...

I agree with c I think many have not played against GK. Our local gaming community have a lot of GK players in the area so I see and play against a lot of it. But we have true diversity in our area too which is nice every army is represented in our group, we even have Tau players, myself included.

@Eiluj The Farseer: I cannot say anything on the whole, but I know in our store Paladins are well and truly dead. Everyone tried their best in 5th to get rid of them with moderate success from things like Str8 spam, to Vindicators, to my own Nob Bikers. Once 6th hit it was horrible for them. Suddenly Paladins were dropping left and right. In recent months I've only seen Draigo and 5 Paladins run for S&Gs. I will not claim that our groups experience is normal or the majority, as we've yet to be troubled by CronAir either*. What I can say with firm belief is that I feel the days of GK cheese are gone. They are still a powerful book, but struggle with some things now, like Terminators.

*=While we've never played against one we do think about it and Theory it out from time to time. Our answer to stopping it from every being picked up seriously though was to okay Forgeworld rules.

Back to the topic as titled. Personally I liked the fact that Eldar lost this ability...

Now let me defend myself before the rotten fruit is throw! The main local eldar player and don't always see eye to eye. He is a nice guy, but our views on models and rules couldn't be further apart. For example to start a guy off in the game he lent him Belial, a command squad termi group, and a five man tac squad for a 500 point game. Cool that is fine with me. We all scalled up to 1000 points and while the new guy tried wolves the eldar player brought in a seer council with Eldrad, another Farseer, the works. He said it was to compensate for getting teamed up with the new guy.

... Now do I think Eldar really did deserve this? Partially. i think they should be brought to the standard, not this subpar rubbish.

Still little bit of bitterness since I play Orks and we are royally gimped in all things psychic. Be glad you still have some good stuff Eldar.

 Happyjew wrote:
There are 3 groups:
A) GK are still OP and cheesy
B) GK are still competitive, but with the changes are not OMG army from 5th edition.
C) have no clue having not played as/against GK in 6th edition (which I have a feeling is the true majority).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I hope you guys are happy. All this talk about has made me hungry. Now I just need a bottle opener and some crackers...

I'm the third group... Heck I want to play against them just to try it out! I have a feeling my RoW would bring me a laugh or two.

As a Nid player I would much much rather face a Draigowing than a Str6 spam Eldar opponent. Every day of the week. And twice on Sunday.

Cheers dakka!
I've come to an agreement with my gaming group. Eldar powers got nerfed and now require LOS while the psyker is embarked. Though this makes small sense, it's still better than not to cast at all.
I am still convinced that logically analising the FAQ gives as a result what i thought, but I am not sure that i can explain this in English :S (which is not my first language despite that random US flag near my name)