Can Allies of Convenience hold objectives?

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**Zoned**

Another question - will your allies of convenience contest your own objectives as they are enemy units?

**Neorealist**

Avatar 720 wrote: So "see my post above" would not have been an acceptable response, in your eyes? I attribute childishness to it because it was childish, especially when there was a far more mature way of saying what you obviously intended (and ultimately failed) to portray.

'Correcting' someone's post without providing any reason why you have done so adds nothing to the discussion save flamebait. Again, why did you not simply quote my post and ask me to look at your other one? Was assuming I simply ignored it more logical than assuming I missed it? Even if you believed it was, was bastardising a quote and giving no reason for doing so really the best way of going about replying?

I think that perhaps you need to take a look at the way you post in future if you believe it was.

I can see i've touched a nerve. I'm sorry for that, i did not mean to cause you any undue grief.

**Flinty**

Zoned wrote:
Another question - will your allies of convenience contest your own objectives as they are enemy units?

Amusingly, I think RAW they do

It obviously doesn't matter if they are scoring or vehicles, but any denial only units may well contest your own objectives. I don't for a moment believe that was the intention as its a bit convoluted for inclusion without specific examples, but there is a loose use of "enemy" in the Denial unit wording that unfortunately matches with the use in the Allies of Convenience rules.

**conker249**

My local gaming store has all agreed that allies of convenience can score. Desperate allies cannot because they say they are in addition, non scoring non denial units. I know, who cares about my store I play at, but showing that we agree that thrreshouldn't be a problem with it. AoC just can't be targeted by psykers or joined by IC or be in other vehicles from the other army.

**Azrell**

Zoned wrote:
Another question - will your allies of convenience contest your own objectives as they are enemy units?

Yes, because your models treat them like enemy models. But they are still scoring and on your side, so they can hold an objective but can deny your troops one if they are too close.

The important word in these rules is "model", your models treat them as enemy models. enemy models can still be scoring. So the important interactions happen between models but not players.

However its a seems to be a hard concept for most people to catch onto, and my have just been one of Gdubs classic "we dotz writ ruz well" moments of rules clarity. Most people just play that they are scoring troops and and don't deny your objectives.

**DeathReaper**

Only your units treat them as enemy units.

So they can not contest any of your objectives because to contest an objective "You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."

Your units treat them as enemy units, you do not.

**MarkyMark**

rigeld2 wrote:
MarkyMark wrote:
Will be FAQ'ed imo, why have different levels of allies (desperate and convenience) if they do the same thing.

Because they don't?
Even ignoring he scoring bit, Desperate Allies do different things than Allies of Convenience.

One eye open yea but as said above they can score and contest themselves and contest your scored objectives from 'normal' troops. Then you get into the issue about multiple combat. Is this clunky system RAW? possibly RAI? hell no.

**Flinty**

If the unit is scoring and denial it can't deny itself. Also if you only have allied scoring and denial units near an objective then they wouldn't deny themselves. As per the RAW it would only be if you had a primary scoring unit and an allied denial unit (or vice versa) near an objective would problems occur. However personally I agree this is a horrible convoluted system and I don't believe that this was the intention of the writers.

**Dozer Blades**

My local gaming store has all agreed that allies of convenience can score. Desperate allies cannot because they say they are in addition, non scoring non denial units

**Slayer222**

I have to say that they can't score for you but a third party, and until gw clears it up their will need to be home rules to allow them to score without debate. Another thing is then do they count as kill points for you because they are technically enemy units and if so if their is a multi assault and two units get stuck together do they have to assault themselves.
Check out this video it goes over how broken these rules are; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEQUeD-Rl7Q. ( i would personally just allow them to score though.

**tuiman**

I friend showed me this video last night. I was quite disappointed how much effort they put in to exploit all this. Clearly RAI allies of convenience score for your army, they are part of your army, and although they might be enemies to your units they are not to you. Also why else would they add the extra line about non-scoring, non-denial to desperate allies.

Also p21, "can not move into base contact with models from an enemy unit that they're not charging"

If someone tries this on me at a tournie I will just give them a 0 for sportsmanship scores. If your going to exploit this, you really are being TFG. Its clearly not RAI. Although, to save time, I wont take allies until its been faq'd

**rigeld2**

Slayer222 wrote:
I have to say that they can't score for you but a third party, and until gw clears it up their will need to be home rules to allow them to score without debate. Another thing is then do they count as kill points for you because they are technically enemy units and if so if their is a multi assault and two units get stuck together do they have to assault themselves.
Check out this video it goes over how broken these rules are; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEQUeD-Rl7Q. ( i would personally just allow them to score though.

They aren't broken. I've demonstrated the only requirements for a scoring unit and AoC meet all of them - so you're wrong.
And no, they don't count for kill points because

Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them.

So units in your army treat them that way, you do not. Guess who counts victory points at the end of Purge the Alien (spoiler - it's not your units).

**Byte**

For the uninitiated, welcome to the RAW/RAI train wreck. We do it to ourselves.

Of course they score, or convenience/desperate allies wouldn't be two different categories.

**rigeld2**

Byte wrote:
For the uninitiated, welcome to the RAW/RAI train wreck. We do it to ourselves.

In this case that doesn't exist - the rules are written correctly. People just want to think they aren't so they come up with some random ways to mess with things.

**Dannyevilguy**

Azrell wrote:
Zoned wrote:
Another question - will your allies of convenience contest your own objectives as they are enemy units?

Yes, because your models treat them like enemy models. But they are still scoring and on your side, so they can hold an objective but can deny your troops one if they are too close.

The important word in these rules is "model", your models treat them as enemy models. enemy models can still be scoring. So the important interactions happen between models but not players.

However its a seems to be a hard concept for most people to catch onto, and my have just been one of Gdubs classic "we dotz writ ruz well" moments of rules clarity. Most people just play that they are scoring troops and and don't deny your objectives.

This actually conjures funny images of two units fighting over who gets the glory of claiming an objective even though they are allies.

**Vineheart01**

the only difference between Desperate and Convienance that i care about is a big one, so i dont know how people say theyre the same thing.

One Eye Open

I really would be pissed if my Lootas were too close to a Desperate Ally and i failed the roll so my Lootas sat there staring at them rather than shooting.

**troy_tempest**

Sorry if this is thread necromancy - but the most recent FAQ finally put this one to rest - Allies of cconvenince score and deny in exactly the same way as primary detachment. Thank you GW.

"Note that Allies of Convenience units are treated as ‘friendly units’ for the purpose of controlling and denying Objectives, and for the purpose of pile-in moves in Close Combat. "

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018§ion=&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2&multiPageMode=true

**DeathReaper**

troy_tempest wrote:
Sorry if this is thread necromancy - but the most recent FAQ finally put this one to rest - Allies of cconvenince score and deny in exactly the same way as primary detachment. Thank you GW.

"Note that Allies of Convenience units are treated as ‘friendly units’ for the purpose of controlling and denying Objectives, and for the purpose of pile-in moves in Close Combat. "

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018§ion=&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2&multiPageMode=true

Yea, we already knew that AoC score and deny.

This is because units in your army treat them as enemy units, but you do not.

Rigeld2 wrote:Guess who counts victory points at the end of Purge the Alien (spoiler - it's not your units).

**HawaiiMatt**

If units in your army treat allies of Convenience as enemy units... blah blah blah.

What we don't have is how the allies of Convenience treat units in your army.

Take Desperate allies rules for example.
Lets say I have a Black Templar army with Dark Eldar allies. They joined up when they bumped into each other at the black paint factory.

One Eye Open says that each of your units within 6" of a Desperate Ally unit much roll a D6 - on a 1, they do nothing.

So if I have a Marine unit next to a Warrior unit, the Marines would test, but the Warriors would not.

**DeathReaper**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If units in your army treat allies of Convenience as enemy units... blah blah blah.

What we don't have is how the allies of Convenience treat units in your army.

Take Desperate allies rules for example.
Lets say I have a Black Templar army with Dark Eldar allies. They joined up when they bumped into each other at the black paint factory.

One Eye Open says that each of your units within 6" of a Desperate Ally unit much roll a D6 - on a 1, they do nothing.

So if I have a Marine unit next to a Warrior unit, the Marines would test, but the Warriors would not.

Not true, as the level of alliance between them is Desperate Allies, so they both would test.

BT's are Desperate Allies to Dark Eldar, and Dark Eldar are Desperate Allies to Black Templars.

**insaniak**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If units in your army treat allies of Convenience as enemy units... blah blah blah.

What we don't have is how the allies of Convenience treat units in your army.

This is a nonsensical statement. Your allied detachment is allied to your primary detachment. Your primary detachment is allied to your allied detachment. That alliance is defined as Allies of Convenience. The rules work in both directions, because each detachment is allied to the other.

One Eye Open says that each of your units within 6" of a Desperate Ally unit much roll a D6 - on a 1, they do nothing.

So if I have a Marine unit next to a Warrior unit, the Marines would test, but the Warriors would not.

If Marines and Dark Eldar are Desperate Allies, then both would test. You can't have one side being allied to the other without the other being allied to the one.