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I wouldn't say that power axes are too expensive, it's just that they don't stop your unit from getting smashed. And they don't work that great vs TH/SS terminators.

Well a Terminator gets a Power Weapon/Fist and an invulnerable save, for any MEQ to get that you can run quite a bit over the cost of the TEQ.

Two advantages of the TEQ over the MEQ are - TEQ can either kill with no recourse to invulnerable save the MEQ at initiative or at least reduce the MEQ down to the invulnerable save at initiative. The MEQ cannot kill the TEQ at initiative - it has to wait til I1. 3+ armor saves are also not that bad to kill if you have a sufficient weight of attacks, whereas 2+ makes it half as likely that you will sustain an unsaved wound, so; negating the armor save becomes more important on a model that is much more likely to have a substantial invulnerable save.

A 2+/3++ is pretty much a lose-lose situation whether you have Power Axes or not.

Right, TH/SS terminators pretty much have to be shot or mobbed to death by things like gaunts or Orks. Their HTH scheme can be nullified by making them waste their time squishing boyz with a thunder hammer.

Harlequins. All the way. Sure, a flame template makes me cry but most people either a) don't have em in favor of other special weapons or b) are too far away to use effectively. And remember that with Fortune even a 5+ is not bad. Plus the fact that anyone using a flamer is dead next turn.

Personally, if I'm really wanting to death star it for fun, I'll run 2 Farseers, 10 Harlequins, Lelith, and occasionally Jain Zar. So many dice. And against a 10 man termie squad? Even with SS, so many dice are rolled that I wipe the squad before they can swing.

I'm reading this whole reply and thinking ... seriously? Sure you can include a cc unit in your list. But you will not win without a solid dakka base. You can run footsloggers - there is a codex that lets you run dual plasmas and dual meltas and still be good in cc - space wolves. But you do not run it without long fangs and DKs and it is the DKs that are real threat with heavy incinerators. There cc prowess is secondary. You can run a cc NM list but it will have drakes and sonic blasters and blastmasters and oblits ... well you get the point. You do not build effective cc lists. You build effective lists that can incorporate one or two solid cc units. There is a difference.

Adding forge world shooting units to the equation makes CC more viable.

A saber offers 4 wounds at t7 that can take advantage of an aegis wall for about the cost of the wall. An earth shaker platform offers 12 wounds at t7 for about the same cost as 20 bare bone guardsmen. Artillery is ridiculously difficult to kill by shooting, ridiculous to the point where it's not worth it to try. At the same time artillery is incredibly fragile in CC. Anything that can beat 2 guardsmen can beat a saber in CC. Anything that can beat 8 guardsmen can beat a fully decked out earth shaker carriage in CC. The best solution for artillery is CC.

I've played LRs with combat squaded purifers with hammers/halberds jumping out and assaulting 2 things at once to good effect. Or you can get a double cleansing flame on one giant horde mob. Rinse, repeat with stormravens as well. It was a "fun" list, but I didn't get S-housed.

 Shandara wrote:
That's a lot of points in 2 units which can be outflanked and shot to pieces (if you're caught in the open it's only 4+ re-rollable) or beaten with templates.

They work, but it's a gamble against some armies that don't sit static and shoot.

Harlequins ignore terrain meaning as long as my IC is outside of terrain, these guys are quite fast, especially as they dont need to shoot. Until very recently there were a lot of DE players in the LGS and i have a perfect record vs all of them. Flamers get absorbed by the ICs, quantity of wounds bash up against 2+ inv/cover with rerolls and do nothing. In 7 games, 3 vs gunline guard, i have lost 12 harlequins combined to non-flamer shooting. Most of those were in one game where there board had the whole middle 30" open and i had to cross vs Russ spam guard who managed to break my shadowfield. Still rolled into their line with one squad at 9 and the other at 6 and he called it at end of turn 4 as he had only his tanks left in an objective game.

Outflanking and shooting is nice in theory, but im eldar and i do that as a primary strategy most of 5th. By now i have come to expect it and as long as i can get 1 guy with a 2+ cover save, im nearly unbeatable. Unless that squad can manage 36 wounds on average, that harequin is not budging.

Only loss with a harlequin list was to a Demon player who ran flamer/screamer spam and the scenario rewarded killing ICs with 3 VP (demons have no ICs) and he just boon of mutilation my shadowfield. Still nearly tabled him but the scenario gave him the win despite having only 4 flamers and 7 plagebearers left.


for other armies, CC-based armies are nearly dead. Every other army spams plasma now meaning 2+ armor saves struggle to reach melee. Everyone I4 or worse also grabs power axes, making 2+ still pretty meh. You need either a good cover save (beast spam+invis, harlequins), good inv saves (demons), or quantity of units you dont care about (terv spam nids). TW cav and ork bikers are still decent at deathstaring it up, but lost a lot of effectiveness in 6th due to the reduction in vehicle spam that they countered so well. They still counter armies that have no melee at all (guard, tau) but BA, SW, demons, crons, or anyone with good counter-charge units can really wreck those lists.

Instead of running a CC based list, running gunlines with counter-charge units seems to be how to win now. Running ~70% of your points in shooting and ~30% into heavy melee has worked well for me with guard or corsairs. This gives you the ability to stop melee lists from running over you but gives you a lot of the benefits of 6th.

I can honestly write a pretty nasty Necron CC list nowadays. x12 Wraiths, and a teleporting Lychguard star guarentee me 3 turn 2 assaults most games.

you build an effective CC list buy asking your opponent to play with 4th edition rules or asking for the game to be delayed until 7ht is rolled out.

 Exergy wrote:
you build an effective CC list buy asking your opponent to play with 4th edition rules or asking for the game to be delayed until 7ht is rolled out.

This.

 Griddlelol wrote:
How many of you have experience with CC heavy armies?

I have been on the dealing and recieving end of CC armies quite a bit lately, or at least some excellent CC units. These are the CC lists I've seen used to good effect
* Necron Wraiths/Scarabs
* Daemons Fate-Crusher
* CSM spawn
* MANZ and Ghaz
* DE Beast Pack Cheese

 Griddlelol wrote:
How viable can they be? Do you seriously have a chance against gunline or mech heavy lists in a tournament setting?

Tjey are quite viable. The trick is your opponent must have one turn to shoot at them. You need to be able to get into assault on turn two in 90% of your games.

 Griddlelol wrote:
What tactics do you use to close in on the enemy, without losing too much of your punch in the process?

Look at those units above I mentioned. Notice how they all have the same thing in common -- they will be in assault by turn two.
Limiting the number of turns until they crash into the enemy increases their effectiveness.

Also, most CC 'lists' now have one or two excellent CC units and support for the rest. My friend who plays Ghaz, a Warboss and 8 MANZ has lots of support from boys, lootas, etc.

I try to play CC CSM, and I fail.
My regular opponent is a chaos deamon though.

The most successful list I came up with was 2 very fast CC units accompanying 2 heavy hitting CC lords, and the reste supporting them.

I support labmouse statement : the way that seems to work is hard hitting CC units with the rest of the army securing the delivery where you need them.

 Seb wrote:
I try to play CC CSM, and I fail.
My regular opponent is a chaos deamon though.

The most successful list I came up with was 2 very fast CC units accompanying 2 heavy hitting CC lords, and the reste supporting them.

I support labmouse statement : the way that seems to work is hard hitting CC units with the rest of the army securing the delivery where you need them.

Even my fatecrusher list followed the same concept.

Fatecrusher is insanely strong, and is extremely under-estimated by players. You drop 8 crushers + skulltaker + fateweaver one turn away from your opponent and they have a very hard time dealing with it.

What makes that army hard to face is that in addition to the fatecrusher squad, I also have 2 squads of 9 flamers, and one squad of 6 screamers to deal with. If you focus on the cruhers, the flamers will make bacon of your army on the following turn. If you focus on the flamers, the crushers will come slamming in on turn 2.

The trick is to overload your opponents target priority.

Martel732 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
you build an effective CC list buy asking your opponent to play with 4th edition rules or asking for the game to be delayed until 7ht is rolled out.

This.

That's helpful...

Seriously, CC was nerfed compared to 5th, but it's still a viable option. You just have to balance it with some fire support now.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
you build an effective CC list buy asking your opponent to play with 4th edition rules or asking for the game to be delayed until 7ht is rolled out.

This.

That's helpful...

Seriously, CC was nerfed compared to 5th, but it's still a viable option. You just have to balance it with some fire support now.

Yes, but now that's a combined arms list, not a CC list. The Space Wolves and to a slightly lesser extent, the CSM, are the masters of this concept. It's much harder to pull off with Astartes lists.

Most of the Xenos can still pull it off fairly well (Necron Wraith-wing, basically any Tyranid list, Daemons), it's more the MEQ that struggle somewhat with it.

in my experience as a player the person who uses the most he or she can use in each of the phases of the turn do the best

nightsorrow wrote:
in my experience as a player the person who uses the most he or she can use in each of the phases of the turn do the best

It's a nice idea, but as a guard player, I've consistently done well by essentially ignoring a whole phase. Assault is something I deal with, or use to slow people down. Not something I use to kill. However, it's a nice idea, and certainly with SW I've found that having a good assault unit or two to smash into my opponent's flank really takes the heat off my scoring units.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Seb wrote:
I try to play CC CSM, and I fail.
My regular opponent is a chaos deamon though.

The most successful list I came up with was 2 very fast CC units accompanying 2 heavy hitting CC lords, and the reste supporting them.

I support labmouse statement : the way that seems to work is hard hitting CC units with the rest of the army securing the delivery where you need them.

Even my fatecrusher list followed the same concept.

Fatecrusher is insanely strong, and is extremely under-estimated by players. You drop 8 crushers + skulltaker + fateweaver one turn away from your opponent and they have a very hard time dealing with it.

What makes that army hard to face is that in addition to the fatecrusher squad, I also have 2 squads of 9 flamers, and one squad of 6 screamers to deal with. If you focus on the cruhers, the flamers will make bacon of your army on the following turn. If you focus on the flamers, the crushers will come slamming in on turn 2.

The trick is to overload your opponents target priority.

That you can do with daemons.
Flamers and screamers are mobile high threat (I know, I face mostly chaos daemons). CSM do not have this kind of options.
I will try next game a DP with black mace in a raptor squad (or moving with them at least), paired with a LR full of Typhus + terminators. We'll see.

My list just got better with only very minor tweaks.

I run a trukk spam at 1000 points. Instead having a kff and a warboss with pk I only take a megarmoured warboss.

I've pretty much beaten every enemy that I couldn't beat before (those gk players are always fleeing the scene when my orks hit the table).

My trukks are more reliable (no more stun lock death), warboss is dead ard' and dakkajet blasts enemies to swiss cheese.

Only thing keeping me from going 100% all in on cc with my nids the fact that fliers would be unkillable. I'd have to hope to role OM on one of my tyranid psykers to be able to even attempt to take them down. Allow my fmcs to assault fliers and we got us a party...let me wing my swarmlord!

 illuknisaa wrote:
My list just got better with only very minor tweaks.

I run a trukk spam at 1000 points. Instead having a kff and a warboss with pk I only take a megarmoured warboss.

I've pretty much beaten every enemy that I couldn't beat before (those gk players are always fleeing the scene when my orks hit the table).

My trukks are more reliable (no more stun lock death), warboss is dead ard' and dakkajet blasts enemies to swiss cheese.

just out of curiosity, could you elaborate on what exactly your list is? I'm going to start a trukk list soon and would like some tips.

I play Black Templars with Tau Allies. My Tau bring the railguns, and the Black templars bring the tide. 10 initiates and 10 neopytes in a unit. Marshal as general in command squad with infiltrate and a chaplin. 3 units of sword brethren with infiltrate(i put SS in these units). The 4 infiltrating units are usually scary enough to keep the enemy focused on them while the tide marches up. The tau pick off their template weapons first and work their way down in a target priority system.

I only play a few lists now, so here is what I know for the lists I know.

Eldar: Harlequinns are pretty good non-troop CC unit, but needs buffs from HQ psykers to really be effective. I think Striking Scorpions are also decent, but Banshees are done. For Troop choices, DA with Shimmer shield and power Axe with Defend can be decent, but that is it really. It does hurt to lose that Init, but the overwatch fire is brutal. Storm Guardians are pretty much worthless now IMO.

Marines: Terminators. It is even viable to foot slog them or DS them if you have a mix of SS/TH and LCs, just put the shields out front. Terminators can even be troops, depending on the codex. Jump Pack Marines /can/ be effective, due to Hammer giving them alittle push, but overwatch still cuts into thier effectivness. You really need 7-10 man strong units to be effective and that means to really be dedicated to them to make them effective. Again, some Codexes make Assault Marines troops. CC bike lists can be effective due to the increased Toughness, Jink, and the ability to get up into the enemy really fast.

Orks: I am sad with Orks because 6th Ed meant the death of the PK Nob. This means that Orks have nothing to defeat AP 2 consistantly. You have to spam hits and wounds to force failed armor saves, thus you need shoota boys more than choppa boys. To me, this means Orks are no longer a CC list, but a shooty list. Those Ork players above do not charge into combat, they hope they get charged so they can shoot via overwatch. They only use CC to mop up units. That is not a CC list to me, CC lists want to go melee first and shoot second. Best CC units are now Elites... Nob mob. That is it, IMO.

Guard: There were 3 CC units in IG in 5th that were decent... Ogryns, Rough Riders, and the power blob. Ogryns didn't change one bit and are slightly more effective because of the mass of Overwatch fire they can put out if anyone is foolish enough to charge them. No AP weapons, so they kill you via spamming wounds and forcing you to fail armor saves. Had a 10 man unit crush a 5 man TH/SS Terminator squad, because every failed wound was a kill, while they needed 3 wounds a turn to kill one guy. Rough Riders are worse due to the change of the AP of the Lances. At least in 5th a 10 man squad could crush any marines they charged with that 12" charge range and gave you an option that ment it didn't have to be a Vendetta in that slot. Not anymore. Power blobs are also not as effective, even as troops because of the change to AP of power weapons. They can deal with Challenges fine due to the shear number of Characters. You give them a Priest and have Creed or Straken around (kinda like Eldar... properly supported) and they can still be decent, but they are a shadow compaired to the 5th ed days IMO.

Chaos: Every god in this book can be made to be CC heavy with the right amount of work and to suit any flavor of CC you like to run, in power armor or terminator armor. Want the closest thing to TH/SS Terminators? Tzeentch. High Init and FNP? Slannesh. Toughness to wade through oncoming fire, Blight Nades and poisoned weapons? Nurgle. CC Dakka? Khorn. No god? Icon of Vengence, extra CC weapon and Vets of the Long War for a fearless unit of marines that can shoot and do CC if charged, or charge to mop up stuff they have shot. Really is something for anyone. Can also go up to 20 guys in a unit.

 Awesomesauce wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
My list just got better with only very minor tweaks.

I run a trukk spam at 1000 points. Instead having a kff and a warboss with pk I only take a megarmoured warboss.

I've pretty much beaten every enemy that I couldn't beat before (those gk players are always fleeing the scene when my orks hit the table).

My trukks are more reliable (no more stun lock death), warboss is dead ard' and dakkajet blasts enemies to swiss cheese.

just out of curiosity, could you elaborate on what exactly your list is? I'm going to start a trukk list soon and would like some tips.

mega warboss (usually just mega armor)

4 trukks of boyz (12 boyz, nob with pk, ram on trukk)

7 stormboyz, nob with pk (I like the models)

Dakkajet

2 rokkit buggies

The general idea is to gang up on few key units and let surviving trukks/buggies shield them off from enemies. Also remember that warboss is 2 models (so his unit has 9 boyz and a nob). Bosspoles are useless because when you start dying you are dead (unless you good luck rolling snake eyes). Rams are pretty awesome but you don't need too many of them. Rokkit buggies are ok against gk and light vehicles. Also remember to shoot (they are called slugga boyz) everything. It might not seem much but taking out 1 space marine before assaulting makes a big difference.

I haven't had much success with CC-only Ork armies, at least not in my games. I play mostly Necrons and IG, and it's really important to have additional fire support to to keep my losses manageable. I usually have one or two dedicated assault specialists that inflict the majority of casualties while the rest of the army, lootas and shootas and buggies/dakkajet, play the mixed role of skirmishing, anti-vehicle, and mop-up.

CQC can be effective in 6th, you just need some fire support to back it up but it can be accomplished without it if necessary. I run a semi-Mech Templar list and my longest range weapon is usually 24" anti personnel weapons. The LRC becomes a bullet sponge but it usually delivers it's payload one way or another. Combat can lay the hurt on most things, you just need to get there fast enough to still be effective.

 Griddlelol wrote:
So Dakka, I'm sure we've all seen a drastic decrease in CC based lists. I'm curious to see what those still hanging on to their CC tactics are doing, and whether it is possible, now that the shock of 6th rule changes has settled down, to make a competitive close combat list.

How many of you have experience with CC heavy armies?

How viable can they be? Do you seriously have a chance against gunline or mech heavy lists in a tournament setting?
Not really. If your opponent has an "oh-gak" moment and you engage one of his units in CC and wipe it, then he will just move shooting units to shoot at it. I see alot of this when BA are on the table. They usually get wiped one or two squads per turn.

What tactics do you use to close in on the enemy, without losing too much of your punch in the process?
If you have an assault based army and have cheap speedy transports or elites that move fast go for cheap go for it.

Have you made compromises when choosing units to allow for some effective shooting as back up?
Yes, but the reverse. My list does not speed alot of points on CC HQ/units when I get more for my money with shooting AP2 AP3 things.

How reliant are you on non-troops choices for viability? How important are objectives for your win, at least in comparison to tabling?
Objectives are not important anymore, and frankly too difficult to stratigize around. I'd have wayyyy more fun snatching up my opponents objectives once he is wiped off the table. Objectives make you split your forces, when really everything should attack and put models in the dead pile.
Feel free to answer all or only some of the questions.

== HQ ==
Hive Tyrant (1) - Scything Talons, Lash Whip And Bonesword, Wings, Paroxysm, Leech Essence = 230 pts.
Swarmlord Brood (340 pts.)
Swarmlord (1) = 280 pts.
Tyrant Guard (1) - Scything Talons = 60 pts.

== Elites ==
Ymgarl Genestealer Brood (5) = 115 pts.
Zoanthrope Brood (2) = 120 pts.

== Troops ==
Hormagaunt Brood (18) = 108 pts.
Broodlord Brood (116 pts.)
Broodlord (1) = 60 pts.
Genestealer (4) = 56 pts.
Hormagaunt Brood (20) = 120 pts.
Hormagaunt Brood (10) = 60 pts.

== Fast Attack ==
Tyranid Shrike Brood (6) - Devourer, Scything Talons = 210 pts.
Ravener Brood (6) - Scything Talons = 180 pts.

== Heavy Support ==
Trygon (1) - Instinctive Behaviour - Feed = 200 pts.
Trygon (1) - Instinctive Behaviour - Feed = 200 pts.

== Total ==
1999 pts.

I run this list All the time and eat poeple with it at my lgs. Its alot of fun to go pure cc, sure i lose sometimes but its hella fun especially when I win, which happens more often than losing. I actually have a few cc only lists I run. I hate tyranid shooting units and I hate tervigons, so id rather lose then run a cookie cutter list like every other nid player. Hell Im even trying to make a list where I can include old one eye, that lovable oaf.