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 captain collius wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
How do you fix deathwing? What are you doing wrong that makes you think you need to fix deathwing?

I would like to know to. They seem fine to me.

He's probably trying to play them just like codex marines with weight of fire. Unfortunately Deathwing is a finicky build you have to find the exact build that works for you. Also remember the Mantra

Concentrate Your Fire!
Assault On Your Terms!
Have Faith In Your Wargear!

I have never played a C:SM army, and have never owned a single squad of tactical marines. Hardcore Deathwing from 3rd Edition all the way, and yes, that's 52 point terminators with no invuln save and only Dreads and LR in support. I wrote that freaking Mantra, back in the day

However, the armies I played last weekend consisted of 60 models minimum at the outset going up to 120+ and a good 10-15 plasma guns. on average. 24 Storm Bolters firing 2 shots just isn't quite cutting it. Pure Deathwing simply cannot handle 6th ed foot armies without some massive firepower boost.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
How do you fix deathwing? What are you doing wrong that makes you think you need to fix deathwing?

I would like to know to. They seem fine to me.

He's probably trying to play them just like codex marines with weight of fire. Unfortunately Deathwing is a finicky build you have to find the exact build that works for you. Also remember the Mantra

Concentrate Your Fire!
Assault On Your Terms!
Have Faith In Your Wargear!

I have never played a C:SM army, and have never owned a single squad of tactical marines. Hardcore Deathwing from 3rd Edition all the way, and yes, that's 52 point terminators with no invuln save and only Dreads and LR in support. I wrote that freaking Mantra, back in the day

However, the armies I played last weekend consisted of 60 models minimum at the outset going up to 120+ and a good 10-15 plasma guns. on average. 24 Storm Bolters firing 2 shots just isn't quite cutting it. Pure Deathwing simply cannot handle 6th ed foot armies without some massive firepower boost.

Thats why a lot of people are moving away from pure Deathwing, they arent as viable now. Add some Ravenwing in, with a bit of Greenwing for fire support (5 man squads with Plasma guns/cannons and a Predator is what I use)

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Dark Angels is possibly one of the best written codexes in recent time. Deathwing are not terrible.

Actually, it isn't. There's only a handful of good things in it- SoD, Black Knights, Dark Shrouds, Azreal. Cheaper Libs and WWs will be in the next C:SM Everything else is overcosted, same as vanilla marines or shelf-material. Nephililm, Dark Talon, DWK, Ezekiel, Asmodai, Land Speeder Vengeance, all bad: Deathwing buffs were countered by increased points costs.

"One of the best written codexes"
means it is an interesting and pretty balanced codex
it does NOT mean "OMGROFLWTF this is ubber OP I need to sell my previous army and play DA now !"

The flyers are pricey and very poor compared to the overpowered ones, just like everything is when compared to a Vendetta. But in 2 years, maybe they'll be good when more things are priced correctly (or maybe after the air-thingy booklet ... yeah I can keep on dreaming)
DWK are very specialized and very good at what they do
Ezekiel is extra cheap and gives nice bonuses
Asmodai is not that great, ok
Land Speeder Vengeance is too fragile, but it's your only Heavy Support in an all Ravenwing list (better than nothing !)

nearly everything that is as well in C:SM is cheaper and more flexible than C:SM, not "dirt-cheaper and better as Space Wolves", just "cheaper in a more balanced way for 6th Ed"

Of course Deathwing are more expensive than Termies:
they can be troops
they are fearless
they have preferred enemy CSM
they have split fire
they have more Weapon options
they CHOOSE when they ALL come from reserve
they have the option for pinpoint accuracy
they are TL the turn they come in
they have the option for extra-cool banners and Command squads
they have the possibility to be T5 in certain circumstances

The Codex is not OP, it is balanced within itself and globally balanced towards the exterior world and (hopefully) towards the codexes to come

 HerbaciousT wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
How do you fix deathwing? What are you doing wrong that makes you think you need to fix deathwing?

I would like to know to. They seem fine to me.

He's probably trying to play them just like codex marines with weight of fire. Unfortunately Deathwing is a finicky build you have to find the exact build that works for you. Also remember the Mantra

Concentrate Your Fire!
Assault On Your Terms!
Have Faith In Your Wargear!

I have never played a C:SM army, and have never owned a single squad of tactical marines. Hardcore Deathwing from 3rd Edition all the way, and yes, that's 52 point terminators with no invuln save and only Dreads and LR in support. I wrote that freaking Mantra, back in the day

However, the armies I played last weekend consisted of 60 models minimum at the outset going up to 120+ and a good 10-15 plasma guns. on average. 24 Storm Bolters firing 2 shots just isn't quite cutting it. Pure Deathwing simply cannot handle 6th ed foot armies without some massive firepower boost.

Thats why a lot of people are moving away from pure Deathwing, they arent as viable now. Add some Ravenwing in, with a bit of Greenwing for fire support (5 man squads with Plasma guns/cannons and a Predator is what I use)

ARE YOU TELLING ME TO BE SENSIBLE!!!! SET NERD RAGE TO 9000!!!!!

Honestly though Deathwing is a cruveball army it's supposed to be something you don't see that often so it becomes hard to deal with. Also playing Pure DWA Terminators works for my playstyle and Meta so it makes me happy.

Ehhhh...if they FAQ DWA to sidestep the controversial 50% rule, they'll be "usable".

I don't really think that Salvo 2/4 Storm Bolters are "overpowered" any more than army-wide S5 Bolters are overpowered, or the proposed 24-shots-per-turn Hurricane Bolters are overpowered. Of those three, really the 2/4 Storm Bolters are the least overpowered considering they're being fielded by an army that lacks good psychic buffing and wargear options (a la Grey Knights) and generally runs <36 models.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Dark Angels is possibly one of the best written codexes in recent time. Deathwing are not terrible.

Actually, it isn't. There's only a handful of good things in it- SoD, Black Knights, Dark Shrouds, Azreal. Cheaper Libs and WWs will be in the next C:SM Everything else is overcosted, same as vanilla marines or shelf-material. Nephililm, Dark Talon, DWK, Ezekiel, Asmodai, Land Speeder Vengeance, all bad: Deathwing buffs were countered by increased points costs.

The book is fine. Just because it is not Grey Knights-immediate awesome doesn't mean the book is poorly written. Has the OP even really played with the new book yet?

Actually I find that the book is just fine as is. And that's with me losing a larger number of games than ever before. There is just so much going on in that book that I have yet to find my way. In due time I'm sure I will settle down but I'm having loads of fun with the book.

And the Hurricane Bolter nonsense is just awesome in a strange TFG kind of way. Makes crusaders actually worth taking imo.

OT: Naw they don't need to "fix" deathwing. I'd rather not have a repeat of GKs.

Gifblaur wrote:
Actually I find that the book is just fine as is. And that's with me losing a larger number of games than ever before. There is just so much going on in that book that I have yet to find my way. In due time I'm sure I will settle down but I'm having loads of fun with the book.

And the Hurricane Bolter nonsense is just awesome in a strange TFG kind of way. Makes crusaders actually worth taking imo.

OT: Naw they don't need to "fix" deathwing. I'd rather not have a repeat of GKs.

I am having the same issue with my Plasma Cannon Terminators. I know it will take some time to figure them out, but currently I am loosing with them and I don’t mean loosing by a few VP, I mean drug out behind the bar and stomped into the ground with golf cleats level of losses. This however does not mean if feel that they need fixing, I just need figure out how to play them now.

Two people in a row saying what I said: it's new, give it time. Just because its not an out-of-the-box ZOMGTHISISTHEBESTCODEXEVAHHHHHHH doesn't mean GW isn't doing their job, doean't mean the exact opposite? they have made a reasonable update to the rules?

I run a pure deathwing, and have for many years. I run all terminators, no land raiders, dreadnoughts, or drop pods. I fully believe that although we lost a little, the gains outweigh the losses.

LOSSES
Belial is now points appropriate instead if dirt cheap.
Apothocary is a little, well, messed up.
Command squad is now a little degraded (apothocary)

GAINS
Deathwing Knight (better than TH&SS, T5 usually)
Many useful banners (if you take command squad)
Multiple command sqauds if you want
Twin-linked deep strike.
Up to 10 man squads

WISHES
2 wound Terminators
Combat Squads
(lots wanted these, but these were gamebreaking)

We gained a little as Deathwing, but the DA gained a lot as a chapter. The Synergy between Ravenwing and Deathwing make them much better combined than as separate entities. Greenwing is fantastic, better than any other SM chapter.

Deathwing is a little weak if you don't take any other choices, but that goes for any army. Take IG with no heavies or Necrons with no fast choices, see how well they can do.