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Standard of Devastation affects Storm Bolters. /Thread ?

No we are just fine thank you.

Deathwing do not need fixing though. They are not broken.

And I think making the Standard of Devastation affect Stormbolters would be overpowered.

Having standard of devastation affect storm bolters would make them to good, Deathwing do not need fixing.

Deathwing require no fixing whatsoever and if they did in any way they would be very low on the priority list for things to fix in this game.

1. Deathwing are excellent in the new DA book.
2. You don't get to /thread your own post. That's very poor forum etiquette.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Standard of Devastation affects Storm Bolters. /Thread ?

Deathwing do not need fixing; they are very very strong.

Fun fact: technically, the stom bolter is a boltgun. If some random TFG WAAC player would want to use his Bolter Banner on his storm bolter, then he could use it per RAW, as the core rulebook lists storm bolters (and bolt pistols, heavy bolters too) as "boltguns".

 AtoMaki wrote:
Fun fact: technically, the stom bolter is a boltgun. If some random TFG WAAC player would want to use his Bolter Banner on his storm bolter, then he could use it per RAW, as the core rulebook lists storm bolters (and bolt pistols, heavy bolters too) as "boltguns".

All boltguns are bolt weapons but not all bolt weapons are boltguns.
Additionally fluff=/=rules

Storm bolters are assault weapons, bolguns are not so no not the same weapon.

And to even try that argument makes you TFG, dude dont be TFG accept that you got a really nice upgrade thats balanced not OP like GK.

 Krellnus wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Fun fact: technically, the stom bolter is a boltgun. If some random TFG WAAC player would want to use his Bolter Banner on his storm bolter, then he could use it per RAW, as the core rulebook lists storm bolters (and bolt pistols, heavy bolters too) as "boltguns".

All boltguns are bolt weapons but not all bolt weapons are boltguns.
Additionally fluff=/=rules

It is not bolt weapons, It is boltguns. That's how it is in the rulebook. There is not a single word about bolt weapons. Only boltguns. Small rulebook pg 56. Go and check it, it is shocking, but it is true (and worthy).

As Krellnus says, I think AtoMaki is confused.

Bolt Pistols, Boltguns, stormbolters, hurricane bolters, and heavy bolters are all "Bolt Weapons". That does not make them all boltguns, however. Don't confuse fluff with in game rules.

As an aside, post like this reaffirm my observations that 75% of "facts" that follow someone saying "Fun Fact:" are wrong.

 kronk wrote:
As Krellnus says, I think AtoMaki is confused.

Bolt Pistols, Boltguns, stormbolters, hurricane bolters, and heavy bolters are all "Bolt Weapons". That does not make them all boltguns, however. Don't confuse fluff with in game rules.

As an aside, post like this reaffirm my observations that 75% of "facts" that follow someone saying "Fun Fact:" are wrong.

Dummm... here it is, right from the core rulebook (nice and big, so everyone can see it):

See any reference to "bolt weapons"? No? Thats fine because there isn't any. Now, do you see any reference to "boltguns"?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Fun fact: technically, the stom bolter is a boltgun. If some random TFG WAAC player would want to use his Bolter Banner on his storm bolter, then he could use it per RAW, as the core rulebook lists storm bolters (and bolt pistols, heavy bolters too) as "boltguns".

All boltguns are bolt weapons but not all bolt weapons are boltguns.
Additionally fluff=/=rules

It is not bolt weapons, It is boltguns. That's how it is in the rulebook. There is not a single word about bolt weapons. Only boltguns. Small rulebook pg 56. Go and check it, it is shocking, but it is true (and worthy).

Not true read the DA codex Boltguns are seperated.

 kronk wrote:
1. Deathwing are excellent in the new DA book.
2. You don't get to /thread your own post. That's very poor forum etiquette.

Why, beat you to the punch?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 kronk wrote:
As Krellnus says, I think AtoMaki is confused.

Bolt Pistols, Boltguns, stormbolters, hurricane bolters, and heavy bolters are all "Bolt Weapons". That does not make them all boltguns, however. Don't confuse fluff with in game rules.

As an aside, post like this reaffirm my observations that 75% of "facts" that follow someone saying "Fun Fact:" are wrong.

Dummm... here it is, right from the core rulebook (nice and big, so everyone can see it):

See any reference to "bolt weapons"? No? Thats fine because there isn't any. Now, do you see any reference to "boltguns"?

Hmm, previously I was in the Boltguns only camp but you do make a VERY good point here Ato.

However, Codex trumps BRB?

Anyway, don't make this a rules thread.

I should have amended this to 'PURE' Deathwing.

TH/SS Cyclone spam is dead ( I never played 5th Ed, but all competitive DW lists I've seen include endless numbers of these bad boys.)

Belial is overcosted at 190 and distinctly subpar as an IC. We lost the option to take a generic MoTD a long time ago, which would have been useful in the new codex with our expanded wargear options.

I want to use DWKs, but there is noooooooo rooooom. Command squads are 305 point units of unscoring.

Plasma spam is everywhere now and large troops-based lists rule the day, of which SB's and 7 Heavy Weapons in 2000 points aren't enough to take down.

Certainly they're good and split fire is fun, but competitive? SB SotD would go someway to ameliorating the firepower discrepancy- and make them some what more cost efficient. Standards aren't invulnerable, you know. Things like DWKS also counting as scoring, some clarity on the Reserves shenanigans ( Firmly in the Full Army Turn 1 Deepstrike Camp) but this is very far in the future. (see my other thread on GW release schedules.)

Thread created in YMDC.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/505512.page#5252653

190 points for an IC who can handle everything except dedicated beatsticks in CC, makes Terminators scoring AND gets to deep strike with a squad on turn one without scattering is Overcosted? Pass the weed.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
190 points for an IC who can handle everything except dedicated beatsticks in CC, makes Terminators scoring AND gets to deep strike with a squad on turn one without scattering is Overcosted? Pass the weed.

He used to be 130 points, remember. Nerfs to power weapons mean he can't handle TEQs anymore, a single TH/SS will beat him dead since he has no EW. Deathwing assault isn't unique to him. The no scatter thing is useful but there are plenty of ways to get round it. Making Terminators Scoring should be a MotD unique, rather than a Belial unique. The Hunt trait is kind of bad. Azreal now does the same thing for 25 points more, gets to choose Warlord, gets a MC Plasma-Combi, gets FNP, and a 4+ to the unit.

Azrael is a foot Infantry with no TDA.

He can't deep strike or link up with bike squads.

Azrael = tax
Belial = expensive MEQ killer

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
190 points for an IC who can handle everything except dedicated beatsticks in CC, makes Terminators scoring AND gets to deep strike with a squad on turn one without scattering is Overcosted? Pass the weed.

He used to be 130 points, remember. Nerfs to power weapons mean he can't handle TEQs anymore, a single TH/SS will beat him dead since he has no EW. Deathwing assault isn't unique to him. The no scatter thing is useful but there are plenty of ways to get round it. Making Terminators Scoring should be a MotD unique, rather than a Belial unique. The Hunt trait is kind of bad. Azreal now does the same thing for 25 points more, gets to choose Warlord, gets a MC Plasma-Combi, gets FNP, and a 4+ to the unit.

Wait, he doesn't counter Counter-IC units so he's bad? Yes, he used to be 130 points and he was quite frankly a steal at that level. And sure, you cak take Azrael to unlock Deathwing, but where do you put him? He can't deep strike and he sure as hell doesn't remove scatter from a unit. A unit that now gets twin-linked weapons on the turn it Deep Strikes.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
190 points for an IC who can handle everything except dedicated beatsticks in CC, makes Terminators scoring AND gets to deep strike with a squad on turn one without scattering is Overcosted? Pass the weed.

He used to be 130 points, remember. Nerfs to power weapons mean he can't handle TEQs anymore, a single TH/SS will beat him dead since he has no EW. Deathwing assault isn't unique to him. The no scatter thing is useful but there are plenty of ways to get round it. Making Terminators Scoring should be a MotD unique, rather than a Belial unique. The Hunt trait is kind of bad. Azreal now does the same thing for 25 points more, gets to choose Warlord, gets a MC Plasma-Combi, gets FNP, and a 4+ to the unit.

Yes all True however Azrael can't take Deathwing HQ, doesn't wound on a 2+ regardless can't freely switch out for TH/SS,and can't DS without scatter placing a massive footprint wherever you want it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
190 points for an IC who can handle everything except dedicated beatsticks in CC, makes Terminators scoring AND gets to deep strike with a squad on turn one without scattering is Overcosted? Pass the weed.

He used to be 130 points, remember. Nerfs to power weapons mean he can't handle TEQs anymore, a single TH/SS will beat him dead since he has no EW. Deathwing assault isn't unique to him. The no scatter thing is useful but there are plenty of ways to get round it. Making Terminators Scoring should be a MotD unique, rather than a Belial unique. The Hunt trait is kind of bad. Azreal now does the same thing for 25 points more, gets to choose Warlord, gets a MC Plasma-Combi, gets FNP, and a 4+ to the unit.

Wait, he doesn't counter Counter-IC units so he's bad? Yes, he used to be 130 points and he was quite frankly a steal at that level. And sure, you cak take Azrael to unlock Deathwing, but where do you put him? He can't deep strike and he sure as hell doesn't remove scatter from a unit. A unit that now gets twin-linked weapons on the turn it Deep Strikes.

Yeah at 130 he was cheaper than any C: SM captain in terminator armor would have been for making terminators troops now he's probably correctly costed in my opinion.

How do you fix deathwing? What are you doing wrong that makes you think you need to fix deathwing?

And sure, you cak take Azrael to unlock Deathwing, but where do you put him?

in to your ally IG blob to give them a +4 save in the open and from drakes , so he can also man the quadgun/icarus with his superior bs , for example.

Salvo 4 Storm Bolters would be great. I'd also appreciate combat squads and a cheaper/more useful Belial. All Terminator armies really suffer from lack of numbers and lack of damage potential, paying too much from the highly overrated 2+ save. Giving their guns more pop or lowering their cost would help a lot.

Makumba wrote:

And sure, you cak take Azrael to unlock Deathwing, but where do you put him?

in to your ally IG blob to give them a +4 save in the open and from drakes , so he can also man the quadgun/icarus with his superior bs , for example.

Which costs how much more than Belial?

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Standard of Devastation affects Storm Bolters. /Thread ?

How can you end a discussion thread without any discussion?

There isn't a problem. A simple turn of focus firing, a lucky precision shot, or even a simple deep striking unit will blast the banner from it's hiding place.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
How do you fix deathwing? What are you doing wrong that makes you think you need to fix deathwing?

I would like to know to. They seem fine to me.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
How do you fix deathwing? What are you doing wrong that makes you think you need to fix deathwing?

I would like to know to. They seem fine to me.

He's probably trying to play them just like codex marines with weight of fire. Unfortunately Deathwing is a finicky build you have to find the exact build that works for you. Also remember the Mantra

Concentrate Your Fire!
Assault On Your Terms!
Have Faith In Your Wargear!

Dark Angels is possibly one of the best written codexes in recent time. Deathwing are not terrible.