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He's not a tremendous force multiplier, he can't engage dedicated CC troops, and his shooting wont' win games. He has no psychic powers or defense, and he's expensize.
Frankly, if he didn't unlock RAS as troops, he'd probably stay home a lot. But he does, which is a huge bonus. He could then give that unit the skilled rider buff (which I didn't catch, so thanks!). He's got one of the best weapons available in 6th in the plasma cannon, and is far more survivable then most marine ICs. That he has an AP2 weapon at I5 is gravy.
How to use him? However you need to. Playing against Missle Spam? Put him in the front of bikes and laugh off the firepower. Playing against MSU? run him on his own, shooting and charging units. Playing against hard HtH units? Hang back and shoot.
I see him, and Ravenwing in general, as playing like the Parthians did in Rome: Total War. Maneuver and shoot, manuever and shoot, charge in for the kill.
Vombat wrote: I never said I want more, Im not that greedy. I was more curious of how to use him.
Most other special characters have a more clear purpos:
Melee monster (Kharn, Swarmlord)
Force multiplyer (Vulcan)
Tactical (Baron)
Shooter (Telion)
Nothing at all (Asmodai, Space pope)
Tax for troops (Castellan Crow)
Some confusing mix (Sammael)
The top three beeing the most common.
I just want to know your thatoughts about him. How would you use him?
My thoughts was to stick him in a commandsquad to soak some bullets to save the Banner and fire his Plasmacannon.
But I cant really see him worth 200p for that.
Actually is simple:
He Does Two tings depending on what he takes into Battle. He is a Jack of Trades, Master of the Ravenwing. He does multiple jobs well; you just have to decide what before that battle.
Super Ready wrote: Here you have a character who is fully capable of easily beating down any 2+ save unit (save perhaps Hammernators) both with his plasma cannon and in combat, surviving quite happily thanks to keeping his Initiative and therefore suffering much less back in the way of unwieldy return attacks from fists etc., whilst being able to move and assault up to 12" each a turn without any detriment to his effectiveness... and to top it all off, Jink and Eternal Warrior mean you can't even bypass his saving throws with Null Zone or a lucky S10 shot. And that's assuming he's not in a unit of Bikes where he'll get a LOS! roll and still benefit from his higher Toughness.
The only other Ravenwing unit that have a shot against 2+ units are Black Knights... who are very expensive and won't stand up to those units in close combat. Against any 2+ unit he's more than worth it. Against the right opponent (Deathwing, Draigowing, Dantewing) he's a downright godsend.
Together with all the standard bolter fire for mobs from your normal bikes and anti-armour fire from speeders and Attack Bikes, Sammael rounds out a pure Ravenwing force and allows it to take on any unit it could come across, even without Black Knights.
Black knights are surpisingly good in HtH with 3 str 5 rending attacks each, 4 on the charge + HoW, A unit of 6 of em is very capable of chewing up a squad of non Hammernator Termi's with combined shooting then charge to finish off.
Hurting a land raider? really? 6s to glance, then 5+ to pen after that 2/9 chance for a pen if all hit means you can go most of a game without a single pen. Even then its not AP2 as rending AP2 is only vs inf.
Ok just for the number book here. A standard BS4 lascannon has a 21% chance of penetrating a Land Raider, the masters Assault cannon has a 22% chance.
removed
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/14 15:57:15
Hurting a land raider? really? 6s to glance, then 5+ to pen after that 2/9 chance for a pen if all hit means you can go most of a game without a single pen. Even then its not AP2 as rending AP2 is only vs inf.
Ok just for the number book here. A standard BS4 lascannon has a 21% chance of penetrating a Land Raider, the masters Assault cannon has a 22% chance.
Um, your math is incorrect.
A BS4 Lascannon has a 3.7% chance to destroy a landraider in a single shot.
66% chance to hit
17% chance to pen
33% chance to roll destroyed (+1 for AP2)
A BS4 Assault Cannon however has a 4.9% chance to destroy a landraider
In one volley of shooting (4x shots) a player can expect 2.67 hits
22% chance to pen
33% chance to roll destroyed (+1 for AP2 rending)
Sammael however, because he is BS5 TL, has a 12.3% chance to destroy a Landraider.
Bottom line = Assault Cannon > Lascannon for destroying heavy armor.
your math is wrong read the rulebook carefully rending doesn't give ap 2 against vehicles.
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your math is wrong read the rulebook carefully rending doesn't give ap 2 against vehicles.
You are correct sir.
Q: If an attack with the Rending special rule rolls a 6 for their mArmour Penetration roll against a vehicle and subsequently scores a Penetrating Hit, does that hit count as being AP2 as it would if the attack rolled a 6 To Wound? (p41) A: No
I didn't realize this had been changed in 6th. Very good to know.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/14 15:56:49
That being said, Sammael still has a 6.2% chance to destroy a landraider
That's pretty crappy. Although with such slim chances, I don't know why you'd be aiming him at a LR anyway...
The Jetbike seems to be the better choice, especially if he's with Black Knights as the Str:4 of his weapon won't be such a problem.
I mean, that's just to score a destroyed result and as a point of comparison a basic BS4 LC has a 3.7% chance.
So your odds of wreaking a LR are better if you shoot Sammael at it, as opposed to the TAC squad. I'd thought it was significantly better, however, I'd completely missed that 6e had removed the AP2 vs vehicles from Rending.
A basic AC has a 29.6% chance to take a HP or better, while a LC has only a 22% chance to take a HP or better. Sammael has a 37% chance to take a HP or better.
Pretzalcoatl wrote: Sammael in a unit of Black Knights is deadly. Played against DA, it (Sammael + 6 knights w/ 2 grenade launchers) wound up killing two units of 10 Deathwing Terminators in one turn each between shooting and assaults. Plasma cannon + 8 twinlinked plasma shots, followed by Sammael's 5 AP2 attacks hitting on 3 wounding on 3 combined with the Knights' 24 attacks each S5 rending going first against T3 hitting on 3 wounding on 2... That's a lot of saves.
Sammael would not be wounding on 3's. he is str 4 ap2, and if the black knights are in btb its wounding on 5's rather then 4's and against DWK#s at ws5 and i4 your numbers are well off, I think you were meant to say if the DWK are rad grenaded first and arent in btb but they still will be hitting on 4's.
But yes, black knights are very good against TEQ, I have only faced termies once with sammael in cc and managed to wipe them all out in one turn which was nothing but luck really (hitting on 3's re rolling one and wounding on 4's, managed to get 4 wounds through on 3 guys)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/14 04:41:28
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The math is still wrong on the assault cannon vs. LR:
Rending gives you a D3+your armor penetration roll if that roll is a 6, not an auto-pen.
Each hit must roll a 6, then a 5+ to pen. Each pen needs a 6 on the damage chart to destroy the LR, so:
0.167 x 0.333 x 0.167 = 0.00926 = 0.93% per hit to destroy
so even if you hit with all 4 shots that's a 3.7% chance to destroy the LR.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Martel732 wrote: Why would you ever shoot an AC at a LR? Seriously? Just use melta like everyone else.
In 5e, prior to the damage chart changes, the odds were more favorable for Rending to destroy a vehicle. This made Assault cannons better at taking out vehicles than lascannons. The changes to AP2 as well as with the new chart changed that.
In 6e you're right. Your best AT at close range is going to be a melta blast.
andystache wrote: On his jetbike, let me just repeat that, on his JETBIKE you have anti-infantry and anti-light armor/heavy infantry, ridiculous movement, the ability to allow an RAS to drive over anything (oh yeah skilled rider increases the cover save too), ap2 attacks (which the DA codex is surprisingly light on), scouts
Don't forget he also confers 'skilled rider' and 'hit and run' to his squad.
andystache wrote: On his jetbike, let me just repeat that, on his JETBIKE you have anti-infantry and anti-light armor/heavy infantry, ridiculous movement, the ability to allow an RAS to drive over anything (oh yeah skilled rider increases the cover save too), ap2 attacks (which the DA codex is surprisingly light on), scouts
Don't forget he also confers 'skilled rider' and 'hit and run' to his squad.
He will most likly join a unit of Black Knights, Commandsquad or a Ravenwing squad.
They all have Hit and run. And only the normal Ravenwings lack skilled rider.
Ofc you can let him join a Tactical squad or so. Im not really sure if they can use skilled rider to get +1 coversave. I think its +1 to the Jink save.
Hit and run would be nice but you will lose all the mobility of Sammael that you payed for.
And I dont really see the fancyness in the Jetbike. Longer turbobost and ignoring terrain, otherwise its a normal bike.
He will most likly join a unit of Black Knights, Commandsquad or a Ravenwing squad.
They all have Hit and run. And only the normal Ravenwings lack skilled rider.
Ofc you can let him join a Tactical squad or so. Im not really sure if they can use skilled rider to get +1 coversave. I think its +1 to the Jink save.
Hit and run would be nice but you will lose all the mobility of Sammael that you payed for.
And I dont really see the fancyness in the Jetbike. Longer turbobost and ignoring terrain, otherwise its a normal bike.
I agree with you on this. The only real strength people seem to mention of the jetbike is its AP2 sword, and I find that hardly justifies a 200 point price tag. You lose all mobility advantage of the jetbike if you join him to a squad and if you run him on his own he becomes extremely easy to kill, which is why I run the Landspeeder.
In 5e, prior to the damage chart changes, the odds were more favorable for Rending to destroy a vehicle. This made Assault cannons better at taking out vehicles than lascannons. The changes to AP2 as well as with the new chart changed that.
In 6e you're right. Your best AT at close range is going to be a melta blast.
They errata'd rending to now no longer have AP2, which sucks, but I run 7 assault cannons in my standard list. The master has I think a 33% chance of at least stripping a hull point. So multiply that by 7 and it adds up. I do have 6 melta weapons in the same list, but Land raiders usually have cargo that I do not want to have mobility and that means its all hands on deck to make sure it dies.
-Any terrain containing Sly Marbo is dangerous terrain.
-Sly Marbo once played an objective mission just to see what it was like to not meet every victory condition on his own.
-Sly Marbo bought a third edition rulebook just to play meat grinder as the attacker.
-Marbo doesn't need an Eldar farseer as an ally; his enemies are already doomed
-Sly Marbo was originally armed with a power weapon, but he dropped it while assaulting a space marine command squad just so his enemies could feel pain
-Sly Marbo still attacks the front armor value in assault, for pity's sake.
He can shoot a Plasma Cannon at BS5 and then charge a unit with an AP2 I5 Master crafted Power Sword.
Yo bros, I'm no expert, but I'm gonna say he might be good for killing TEQs.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
He can shoot a Plasma Cannon at BS5 and then charge a unit with an AP2 I5 Master crafted Power Sword.
Yo bros, I'm no expert, but I'm gonna say he might be good for killing TEQs.
Assuming you run black knights, he is a bucket in an ocean of plasma
-Any terrain containing Sly Marbo is dangerous terrain.
-Sly Marbo once played an objective mission just to see what it was like to not meet every victory condition on his own.
-Sly Marbo bought a third edition rulebook just to play meat grinder as the attacker.
-Marbo doesn't need an Eldar farseer as an ally; his enemies are already doomed
-Sly Marbo was originally armed with a power weapon, but he dropped it while assaulting a space marine command squad just so his enemies could feel pain
-Sly Marbo still attacks the front armor value in assault, for pity's sake.
Mythantor wrote: Black knights are surpisingly good in HtH with 3 str 5 rending attacks each, 4 on the charge + HoW, A unit of 6 of em is very capable of chewing up a squad of non Hammernator Termi's with combined shooting then charge to finish off.
That's kind of my point, they're roughly even against TEQ in their effectiveness - so if you have Sammael you don't have to take Black Knights.
If you want Ravenwing as Troops you're looking at taking Sammael anyway, so you might as well use him INSTEAD of an equally (or for 6, more!!) expensive Black Knights unit. Of course, if you're facing a heavy infantry army like Draigowing or Dantewing, you also have the option of taking both.
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
Mythantor wrote: Black knights are surpisingly good in HtH with 3 str 5 rending attacks each, 4 on the charge + HoW, A unit of 6 of em is very capable of chewing up a squad of non Hammernator Termi's with combined shooting then charge to finish off.
That's kind of my point, they're roughly even against TEQ in their effectiveness - so if you have Sammael you don't have to take Black Knights.
If you want Ravenwing as Troops you're looking at taking Sammael anyway, so you might as well use him INSTEAD of an equally (or for 6, more!!) expensive Black Knights unit. Of course, if you're facing a heavy infantry army like Draigowing or Dantewing, you also have the option of taking both.
When it comes to TEQs, theres no kill like overkill!
It's the proverbial fire magnet. It doesn't just enough damage to you that aggravates you... so, you want to take it down... it may take an entire round or two just to take it down (depending on your list of course). That let's the rest of your army uncontested...
I can see the following really NASTY:
Spoiler:
HQ: Sammael on Corvex (or his speeder... doesn't matter, but in this list, I'd go with is bike)
1 Sammael on Corvex, 200 pts ((CA, pp. 58 & 93); JetBikes (Character); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Adamantine Mantle; Corvex; Night Halo; Power Armour; Teleport Homer; Bolt Pistol; Raven Sword; Plasma Cannon; Twin-Linked Storm Bolters; Eternal Warrior; Fearless; Hit & Run; Independent Character; Inner Circle; Preferred Enemy (CSM); Scouts; Skilled Rider)
Troops: Ravenwing Attack Squadron
1 Ravenwing Attack Squadron, 306 pts ((CA, pp. 47 & 101); And They Shall Know No Fear; Grim Resolve; Hit & Run; Ravenwing Combat Squads; Scouts; Stubborn)
5 Ravenwing Biker (Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Twin-Linked Boltgun)
1 Ravenwing Sergeant (Bikes (Character); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; Twin-Linked Boltgun)
1 Ravenwing Attack Bike (Bikes; Assault Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Teleport Homer; Bolt Pistol; Multi-melta; Twin-Linked Boltgun)
1 Land Speeder (Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast); Heavy Flamer; Multi-melta; Deep Strike)
Troops: Ravenwing Attack Squadron
1 Ravenwing Attack Squadron, 306 pts ((CA, pp. 47 & 101); And They Shall Know No Fear; Grim Resolve; Hit & Run; Ravenwing Combat Squads; Scouts; Stubborn)
5 Ravenwing Biker (Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Twin-Linked Boltgun)
1 Ravenwing Sergeant (Bikes (Character); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; Twin-Linked Boltgun)
1 Ravenwing Attack Bike (Bikes; Assault Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Teleport Homer; Bolt Pistol; Multi-melta; Twin-Linked Boltgun)
1 Land Speeder (Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast); Heavy Flamer; Multi-melta; Deep Strike)
Troops: Ravenwing Attack Squadron (
1 Ravenwing Attack Squadron, 286 pts ((CA, pp. 47 & 101); And They Shall Know No Fear; Grim Resolve; Hit & Run; Ravenwing Combat Squads; Scouts; Stubborn)
5 Ravenwing Biker (Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Twin-Linked Boltgun)
1 Ravenwing Sergeant (Bikes (Character); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; Twin-Linked Boltgun)
1 Ravenwing Attack Bike (Bikes; Assault Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Teleport Homer; Bolt Pistol; Multi-melta; Twin-Linked Boltgun)
1 Land Speeder (Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast); Heavy Flamer; Multi-melta; Deep Strike)
Fast Attack: Ravenwing Support Squadron
4 Ravenwing Support Squadron, 300 pts ((CA, pp. 48 & 101); Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast); Heavy Bolter x4; Typhoon Missile Launcher x4; Deep Strike)
Fast Attack: Ravenwing Support Squadron
4 Ravenwing Support Squadron, 300 pts ((CA, pp. 48 & 101); Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast); Heavy Bolter x4; Typhoon Missile Launcher x4; Deep Strike)
Fast Attack: Ravenwing Support Squadron
4 Ravenwing Support Squadron, 300 pts ((CA, pp. 48 & 101); Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast); Heavy Bolter x4; Typhoon Missile Launcher x4; Deep Strike)
That is a scary looking 2k list
"As a father, he does his best - as he always has - to protect his children. He reaches out to smash, with a righteous fist, those that seek to harm you. We are that fist." - Chapter Master Zachariah Kersh - Excoriators Chapter
w/l/t
1750 Ravenwing 1/0/1
500 Deathwing (Under major construction) 1/0/0
Combined (?) (Major construction) 2/1/1
1500 Mech Guard 5/2/2
Under major construction
(No primaris)
(Fantasy I miss you)
On his jetbike, let me just repeat that, on his JETBIKE you have anti-infantry and anti-light armor/heavy infantry, ridiculous movement, the ability to allow an RAS to drive over anything (oh yeah skilled rider increases the cover save too), ap2 attacks (which the 
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch 
1500 Mech Guard 5/2/2
Under major construction