Whats the point in Sammael?

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**Vombat**

Hi Dakka

What purpous does Sammael in the DA codex have?
So far I can only see him as a Ravenwing tax. You have to pay an extra 200p to be able to have Ravenwing attacksquads as troops.

Hes not really a fighter. Not much defence, only a 3+ save anda 4++. Toughness 5 and Eternal warrior helps tho.
3 attacks with strength 4 isnt really impressive either. AP 2 striking at initiative 5 is nice but not enough.

Zooming around and shooting will not give you the points back. One plasmacannon at BS5 is nice but at the whooping cost of 200p?
He dont have any force multiplyers either. Only his warlord trait, that isnt that impressive.

He got the option to fly around in a Speeder too.
But with only a TL Heavy Bolter and a TL AssCannon at BS5, he wont be able to get his points back.
And if you are withing 24" range you are dangerously close to enemy assaults. And a rear armour of 10 with a 4++ wont save your ass.

Im thinking of a Ravenwing army. Dakka banner, alot of bikes and a nice deathstar unit of Black knights.
But I cant see any use of this guy, exept for the Ravenwing tax. Maybe Azreal would be batter...

**Kaime**

He does have a force multiplier, he has skilled rider.

Skilled rider buffs the unit he joins, even if they dont have it.

sammael and a unit of 6 normal ravenwing bikes have a 2+ cover save if they are turbo boosting and near a ravenwing dark shroud.

**spears**

Because Jetbike.

**BTNeophyte**

spears wrote:
Because Jetbike.

This

**Formosa**

The land speeder is ok for the 7 possible sniper shots, the bike is also good for buffing the unit he is in.

**labmouse42**

His AP2 weapon is nicer than you think.
Most ICs don't have AP2 weapons. A 2+ save is easy for most ICs to get (artificer armor, terminator armor).

This means while Azrael is bouncing off someones terminator armor, Sammael is punching through it.

**Volkov**

Sammael in the Landspeeder, is actually a very good choice. twin linked BS 5 means that he will be hitting with all 7 shots most of the time, and the Assault cannon has a 66% chance of rending when you fire it, so feel free to light up a land raider with it. The best use for him though, is as a fire magnet. People just love to shoot at him, and as long as you are aware that his rear armour is 10 then he is incredibly survivable. Pre-measuring is your friend for close calls. And if you somehow let a unit assault him, well either you sacrificed him for a strategic gain (which I have done more than once) or you weren't paying attention. Short of a flyer he is one of the fastest vehicles in the game, there should be absolutely no reason you get caught off guard with him.

Long story short the best use for the master in speeder is to be a matador. Any shots on him are shots not on your Dark shroud or that attack bike sneaking up with its multi melta. But don't discount his firepower you will be amazed how quickly he chews up vehicles (most vehicles have rear armour 10 also) and infantry.

**zephoid**

The problem with the speeder is that you can just ignore it. a heavy bolter and assault cannon together, even with bs5 TL it is only killing 2-3 marines a turn. If it tries to flank for rear armor you can just assault it or melta it once. Its like eldar wave serpents; annoying, but not influential on the game and far too many points

Hurting a land raider? really? 6s to glance, then 5+ to pen after that 2/9 chance for a pen if all hit means you can go most of a game without a single pen. Even then its not AP2 as rending AP2 is only vs inf.

In DA hes pretty useless. However, i saw an interesting ally trick: Sanguinary guard+ priest+ samael. 2+, FNP, decent dakka, 12" move, and pretty deadly in assault. DA simply lacks a good unit for him to run with. Bikes dont want to be in assault and rarely synergize with a plasma cannon.

**Largo39**

He's good for:

jetbike, surviving, ap2 CC attacks, keeping a bolter banner alive in a command squad

**Andilus Greatsword**

Just so you know, Sanguinary Priests do not confer FNP to non-BA units.

**Coyote81**

BTW, he's 4 attacks with a master crafted ap 2 sword at I5, not too shabby.

**Flinty**

Bikes do want to be in assault, just not against dedicated close combat units. Thats when the great mobility of a ravenwing unitcomes into play. They can speed past the enemy front line and eat the troops units holding enemy objectives. With sammael they're almost guaranteed to wipe out whatever you point them at with combined shooting and assault

**MarsNZ**

Am I reading this right,

mounted on a jetbike with a 3+4++ w/ force multiplier, the option to take bikes at troops, T5, AP2 and Eternal Warrior...

And you think he needs more?

Ahhh Marine players...

**andystache**

MarsNZ wrote:
Am I reading this right,

mounted on a jetbike with a 3+4++ w/ force multiplier, the option to take bikes at troops, T5, AP2 and Eternal Warrior...

And you think he needs more?

Ahhh Marine players...

I second, third and likely fourth this sentiment. Not a day passes where someone on this forum says X Dark Angel unit is useless because it doesn't kill everything it sees.

On his jetbike, let me just repeat that, on his JETBIKE you have anti-infantry and anti-light armor/heavy infantry, ridiculous movement, the ability to allow an RAS to drive over anything (oh yeah skilled rider increases the cover save too), ap2 attacks (which the DA codex is surprisingly light on), scouts

In the land speeder you have roughly the same firepower as an LRC with equivalent front and side armor, 4++ on the vehicle

In either case you're getting RAS as troops and with the new 'dex that means more land speeder typhoons. I mean you could take base speeders or tornadoes, but why you can take typhoons

**Super Ready**

Here you have a character who is fully capable of easily beating down any 2+ save unit (save perhaps Hammernators) both with his plasma cannon and in combat, surviving quite happily thanks to keeping his Initiative and therefore suffering much less back in the way of unwieldy return attacks from fists etc., whilst being able to move and assault up to 12" each a turn without any detriment to his effectiveness... and to top it all off, Jink and Eternal Warrior mean you can't even bypass his saving throws with Null Zone or a lucky S10 shot. And that's assuming he's not in a unit of Bikes where he'll get a LOS! roll and still benefit from his higher Toughness.

The only other Ravenwing unit that have a shot against 2+ units are Black Knights... who are very expensive and won't stand up to those units in close combat. Against any 2+ unit he's more than worth it. Against the right opponent (Deathwing, Draigowing, Dantewing) he's a downright godsend.

Together with all the standard bolter fire for mobs from your normal bikes and anti-armour fire from speeders and Attack Bikes, Sammael rounds out a pure Ravenwing force and allows it to take on any unit it could come across, even without Black Knights.

**TheLionOfTheForest**

So what's better his landspeeder or his jetbike? Or are they just two different tools for two different jobs?

**andystache**

I'd say different tools. For a TAC/tourney set up I'd take the jetbike every time, but if you're playing a friendly then the speeder is better again anything with a lot of models and/or light armor

**TheLionOfTheForest**

The reason I ask is I have a LSS hull that is partially built and I want to convert it to either sammael's landspeeder or a darkshroud.

**Belly**

BTNeophyte wrote:
spears wrote:
Because Jetbike.

This

Silly mon-keigh.

**TheLionOfTheForest**

Does a model exist for Sammael's landspeeder?

**firmlog**

You can make it with parts from the raven wing box set.

**kenshin620**

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Does a model exist for Sammael's landspeeder?

Ravenwing Upgrade Sprue contains a twin linked Assault Cannon and a Twin Linked Heavy bolter. Slap those on your average land speeder and there you go

**riverhawks32**

Whats the point in Sammael? *Laughter in the background* *slowly trails off* You're serious? flying 14 armor and laser guided bullets that can knock out anything/anyone. Using him smartly can change the game. I went to a GT with him on speeder, managed to knock out about 1/4 of my opponents army, including a LRBT or two

**Blacksails**

Don' think of Sammael as an expensive tax for unlocking Ravenwing squads as troops, but instead compare what he brings to how you would outfit a captain similarly from say C:SM, where a bike Captain also unlocks bike squads for troops.

Equipping a captain with bike, power sword, and teleport homer (not technically available, but assuming its a 15pts upgrade for ordinary sergeants, we'll use that number) nets you 165pts.

For an additional 35pts you gain skilled rider, eternal warrior, a master-crafted AP2 power sword (rather significant actually), and a jet bike with a plasma cannon. Well, and the ability to make ravenwing bike squads troops, which are better than ordinary C:SM bikes.

Sure, Sammael isn't a god in CC, but you can't dismiss a plasma cannon on a mobile platform surrounded by scoring bikers. Still very fairly priced for what he does and brings to the army.

**Vombat**

MarsNZ wrote:
Am I reading this right,

mounted on a jetbike with a 3+4++ w/ force multiplier, the option to take bikes at troops, T5, AP2 and Eternal Warrior...

And you think he needs more?

Ahhh Marine players...

I never said I want more, Im not that greedy. I was more curious of how to use him.

Most other special characters have a more clear purpos:
Melee monster (Kharn, Swarmlord)
Force multiplyer (Vulcan)
Tactical (Baron)
Shooter (Telion)
Nothing at all (Asmodai, Space pope)
Tax for troops (Castellan Crow)
Some confusing mix (Sammael)
The top three beeing the most common.

I just want to know your thatoughts about him. How would you use him?
My thoughts was to stick him in a commandsquad to soak some bullets to save the Banner and fire his Plasmacannon.
But I cant really see him worth 200p for that.

**Flinty**

As noted above, I would attach him to a normal ravenwing squad of 6 and go hunting for enemy scoring units. If you're fighitng heavy armour then maybe upgrade the squad with power weapons, if you're against Guard or similar go for anti-tank. Send the unit around a flank and you can probably staqnd to lose a turn or 2 of shooting if it gets you in a good position later in the game to make a decisive move against something.

**Pretzalcoatl**

Sammael in a unit of Black Knights is deadly. Played against DA, it (Sammael + 6 knights w/ 2 grenade launchers) wound up killing two units of 10 Deathwing Terminators in one turn each between shooting and assaults. Plasma cannon + 8 twinlinked plasma shots, followed by Sammael's 5 AP2 attacks hitting on 3 wounding on 3 combined with the Knights' 24 attacks each S5 rending going first against T3 hitting on 3 wounding on 2... That's a lot of saves.

**Volkov**

I just want to know your thatoughts about him. How would you use him?
My thoughts was to stick him in a commandsquad to soak some bullets to save the Banner and fire his Plasmacannon.
But I cant really see him worth 200p for that.

Like I said in my earlier posts, I don't see much value from the jetbike, not for 200 points, especially if you run black knights, who really overlap with his combat ability. The land speeder is a whole other animal though...

Hurting a land raider? really? 6s to glance, then 5+ to pen after that 2/9 chance for a pen if all hit means you can go most of a game without a single pen. Even then its not AP2 as rending AP2 is only vs inf.

Ok just for the number book here. A standard BS4 lascannon has a 21% chance of penetrating a Land Raider, the masters Assault cannon has a 22% chance. So, how many other HQ choices have this level of ability at killing A LAND RAIDER! I am not saying he's the best anti-tank unit in the game not by a mile, but he can deal with everything in the game and have a reasonable chance of success. And he has 14 armour and a 4++ save...for 200 points. I cannot see why people don't like the landspeeder. You have to work to find uses for the jetbike. Every army is happy day for the speeder.

**Chumbalaya**

200 points for 2HP. No thank you.

**whembly**

Chumbalaya wrote:
200 points for 2HP. No thank you.

It's more resilient than you think...

It's the proverbial fire magnet. It doesn't just enough damage to you that aggravates you... so, you want to take it down... it may take an entire round or two just to take it down (depending on your list of course). That let's the rest of your army uncontested...

I can see the following really NASTY:

Spoiler: