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I think the problem really is supply and demand. As in, they're both so exceptionally low there is no reason that indie shops will want to sell them.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

2.) FW kits are bad. Like really bad. Quality control wise I mean. The chances are very high that you'll get at least one part you'll want replaced because of miscasting on anything save for shoulder pads or Rhino doors. The quality control is simply terrible. While FW (as well as GW) customer service is great, and they'll totally replace anything you ask them to, a store is probably not going to want to hassle with that order after order..

Speaking from personnal experience? Otherwise, where'd you get that from, personally, I've only had one really gaky kit, out of the 4 time I bought from FW, my friend Bloodslaughter was also free of defect.

Ummm...25% (or 20% if you include your friends) gaky kits is very, very bad quality control. When I am casting up resin for our local group, I have about a 5% gaky rating - and I am usually a few drinks in by the time I start casting up the resin. A commercial enterprise should have a 0% (or nearly so) gaky kit rating on what makes it out the door. If they are letting one out of 4 or one out of 5 or even one out of 50 kits that get out the door be filled with bubbles, warped, twisted or otherwise a pile of poo - then that is really bad.


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 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
I think the problem really is supply and demand. As in, they're both so exceptionally low there is no reason that indie shops will want to sell them.

Regarding this in general - a few years back (would need to double check the exact year) the FW revenue was stated in one of their annual reports. At that time, it was a few million pounds revenue - I am sure that it has gone up some since then. That would put them leaps and bounds ahead of many of the smaller miniature companies who sell resin and metal products. Most indie shops would carry FW items happily if they were offered favorable terms on them.

One of the stores I go to with some frequency carries the full line of Scribor and HiTech figures - all in resin, and they apparently sell quite well. By making the FW items artificially scarce, they make them less likely to sell. Some one may be inclined to pick up something he sees three or four times in a store, while they will be less inclined to send money half way around the globe to hope that they get a clean kit the first go and not run into other issues (lost/damaged packages and what not).

Resin casting is more difficult to do en masse - but it isn't impossible by any stretch. There are a lot of companies who cast up hundreds of thousands of resin items each year - and do so relatively successfully.

Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Silicone moulded resin casts aren't the only way to make models, though it might be a good way if all you're trying to do is short runs of premium priced products sold direct through an online store. IMO that's what's happening, the technique and manpower follows the business model they are pursuing more than the business model is limited by the technique and manpower.

So what else are you going to do? You certainly aren't going to get any FW kits in plastic, the technology just doesn't allow it.

Well GW themselves make large runs of metal models and finecast models (which had it's teething issues, but from reports is now much more reliable) and I'm not sure what you mean by plastic technology just not allowing it, sure, it wouldn't work for their entire range, but for many of FW's models that are large and don't have a lot of fine detail, plastic would work fine, look at most the titans and Imperial Navy and large vehicles and they have significantly LESS detail than your average plastic model plane or boat or car, hell, much of it could be made from PVC (obviously not the small detailed models, but many of the eldar titans are similarly detailed as PVC models and then could have a resin/metal/whatever pilot). GW themselves have shown the Baneblade can be made in plastic for 70 pounds on the shelves even including retailer distribution costs.

Look, I don't profess to be an expert on the matter and I am not questioning Jordan's expertise on the technique of resin casting, it just seems, IMO, to be that FW chose their techniques and chose their manforce and chose to do things the way they currently do them to fit their business model, not their business model was chosen based on those factors.

Even if they are limited to resin, I find it hard to believe they are running at peak efficiency of the technique and charging a price that is actually in line with what that would be. I've never done resin casting, but my comment about backyarder vs company is because I have done small scale metal working, fabrication and carbon/kevlar/fibreglass resin composite manufacturing and I know for me to make 1 or 2 or 10 copies of a component by myself in my garage will take me significantly longer per part per person than if the same things were made in copies of 50 or 500 in a larger facility with a properly tuned production line of several people. It's not that they cut out processes, it's that a production line can be tuned to remove a lot of the "in between" time. I once built a one off car from scratch with a team of people, built most of it aside from engine, shocks, springs and bearings from scratch and as an exercise we figured out with the same number of people building 50 of them (rather than 1) in a production facilty (instead of a garage) we could pump them out in a fraction of the time with the same number of people (we were genuinely considering doing it and selling them). Of course, that's an extreme case where we have huge setup time in a garage for many processes that in a production line can be setup once and reused multiple times, but I do find it hard to believe FW are running at that limit and their business model is limited by that limit. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I've never been to see how efficient or inefficient their production methods might be and whether or not their prices actually reflect it, like I said, it was just my thought, I wasn't stating it as fact.

BryllCream wrote:I was commenting on your opinion, I wasn't applying a lable to you.

I never said you did.

Simple, FW is a webstore.

allseeingskink wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by plastic technology just not allowing it, sure, it wouldn't work for their entire range, but for many of FW's models that are large and don't have a lot of fine detail, plastic would work fine, look at most the titans and Imperial Navy and large vehicles and they have significantly LESS detail than your average plastic model plane or boat or car, hell, much of it could be made from PVC (obviously not the small detailed models, but many of the eldar titans are similarly detailed as PVC models and then could have a resin/metal/whatever pilot).

The problem is the price curve and the enormous up-front costs of plastic. Making anything out of injection molded plastic costs tens--if not hundreds--of thousands of dollars to set up before you have your product if you want to do anything in house. If you plan to outsource, there are minimum production run stipulations that have to be met before anyone will even take the job in order to make it worth their while.

Resin, on the other hand, has a very low barrier to entry, high quality if workers take their time and near uniform price curve. This makes resin the perfect medium for test runs, small lots, large, limited run models and models with relatively low demand. The downside is that there's no way to make the process more efficient the larger the scale of the operation goes.

AllSeeingSkink wrote: Even if they are limited to resin, I find it hard to believe they are running at peak efficiency of the technique and charging a price that is actually in line with what that would be. I've never done resin casting, but my comment about backyarder vs company is because I have done small scale metal working, fabrication and carbon/kevlar/fibreglass resin composite manufacturing and I know for me to make 1 or 2 or 10 copies of a component by myself in my garage will take me significantly longer per part per person than if the same things were made in copies of 50 or 500 in a larger facility with a properly tuned production line of several people

All of those things you mentioned can be (and often are) automated, resin casting miniatures cannot. Garage casters and Forge World use the exact same process, which is the peak of efficiency for resin casting miniatures. It's a primitive process, but unless you want to invest many, many Gs into extrusion and injection equipment, it's what you've got to work with.

AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's not that they cut out processes, it's that a production line can be tuned to remove a lot of the "in between" time.

Resin casting is a one step process: Pour liquid resin in the mold. There aren't multiple production steps that can be tuned to increase efficiency. What little bit of "in between" time exists in the process is when the resin cures and that can't be altered without using a different, faster curing resin. Using a faster curing resin means workers have less time to work pouring resin into molds, which means fewer molds can be put under pressure and cured at a time before they harden with bubbles in them. The reason FW models used to look like potato chips when you got them is that workers would pull the models out of the mold while they were still hardening. That extra five minutes in the pot is the difference between a usable pull and garbage.

AllSeeingSkink wrote: I once built a one off car from scratch with a team of people, built most of it aside from engine, shocks, springs and bearings from scratch and as an exercise we figured out with the same number of people building 50 of them (rather than 1) in a production facilty (instead of a garage) we could pump them out in a fraction of the time with the same number of people (we were genuinely considering doing it and selling them).

That's good stuff, but there are no analogues to the resin casting process in the project you mentioned. 75% of the time in the casting process is letting the resin cure and if all of the pots are occupied, then you're left twiddling your thumbs. I use a resin that cures in 35 minutes, FW may use a 1 hour resin, meaning even more down time. There's no way around this if you actually want a cast part.

AllSeeingSkink wrote: but I do find it hard to believe FW are running at that limit and their business model is limited by that limit. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I've never been to see how efficient or inefficient their production methods might be and whether or not their prices actually reflect it, like I said, it was just my thought, I wasn't stating it as fact.

Given the demand for much of the newer models they've got out, I'd put a few bucks on them working at capacity. FW prices very likely don't reflect the costs of production but factor in paying a hefty sum for their staff sculptors. That's why you see a big difference in price between a place like Chapter House and FW; CH probably writes off the time they spent sculpting their originals and charge prices based on what their materials and time are worth.

All of those things you mentioned can be (and often are) automated, resin casting miniatures cannot. Garage casters and Forge World use the exact same process, which is the peak of efficiency for resin casting miniatures. It's a primitive process, but unless you want to invest many, many Gs into extrusion and injection equipment, it's what you've got to work with.

Actually they can. I have written software for controllers for a variety of automated resin casting machines, and in fact the current methods used for casting Finecast are largely automated. The mixing is not done by hand, neither is the actual pouring of the resin. You do have a person who plucks the cured resin from the molds - but even that can be automated.

Resin is well suited for spin casting, and with a variety of readily available hardware - it is able to produce products with few defects (provided molds are properly vented) and no more involvement in the casting process than traditional metal casting.

Most home casters use either vacuum, gravity or pressure casting which is not well suited for production work - but has minimal entry costs. Commercial casters will use either spin casting machines or forced resin (similar to what is used in diecast processes) - and they are easier to produce large numbers of good casts. You can even cast large objects like tanks and aircraft using spin cast machines or roto-cast resins...though you will need a larger mold than the small 9" molds used by a lot of figure casters (a friend has a machine that is able to spin cast 24" molds).

If you ever get a chance to tour any of the production resin companies - you will see a lot of the same principles being used, but on a much more efficient scale. In the case of the company which I worked with, the resin was mixed automatically in a hopper above the spin casting machine and fed into the mold in an automatically determined volume based on the mold. The mold spun for a specified time and speed to remove the air bubbles and allow the resin to cure. When the cure timer had finished, the brakes would stop the spinning and the caster would remove that mold and insert another. The machine would automatically fill the second mold with the premixed resin and start the process again. The caster would pluck the cast resin and inspect it for obvious defects before returning to the machine to swap out the molds again. The only time he actually interacted with the liquid resin was when he removed the mixing tube at the end of his shift.

Their rejection level was less than 0.5% and although they were not casting miniatures, their were casting similarly detailed replica jewelry with fine filigree and other things which could prove problematic. Each cycle took roughly 3 minutes to complete, so the caster would be doing well over 140 casts (with over a dozen cavities per mold) over the course of a casual shift.

That is a far stretch from the way a home/garage caster generally has to work. I have to measure and mix each batch of resin by hand, and unless I am spin casting it - I vacuum the resin to remove entrained air and then pour it in the mold and place it in the pressure vessel. After it is in there, I open the valve and pressurize the container to help further minimize the potential for bubbles. After the resin has fully cured, I vent the chamber and demold the casting. On average that takes me about 20 minutes a cycle from start to finish. When I use my spin casting molds - I can get that time down to about 7 minutes or so per cycle - but it is still much slower than an automated system and I have a much harder time maintaining that same speed over the course of a day (or even a few hours).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by plastic technology just not allowing it, sure, it wouldn't work for their entire range, but for many of FW's models that are large and don't have a lot of fine detail, plastic would work fine, look at most the titans and Imperial Navy and large vehicles and they have significantly LESS detail than your average plastic model plane or boat or car, hell, much of it could be made from PVC (obviously not the small detailed models, but many of the eldar titans are similarly detailed as PVC models and then could have a resin/metal/whatever pilot).

It's not the level of detail (though that is a major factor, FW kits have MUCH more detail than GW's plastic kits), it's how the detail is constructed. You can't do undercuts with plastic kits, which means a lot of FW models simply can't be done in plastic (all of my DKoK models, for example). And for the ones that can, there would have to be modifications. For example, look at the plastic Leman Russ kit carefully and you'll see that the "round" holes in the exhaust cover are not actually circles, they're oval-shaped to remove the undercuts that would happen with true circles. On the other hand, the FW Leman Russ kit has perfect circles. It might not be a big difference for the average player who just wants something vaguely tank-shaped so they can win games, but the people who buy FW stuff are much more concerned with tiny details like that.

GW themselves have shown the Baneblade can be made in plastic for 70 pounds on the shelves even including retailer distribution costs.

1) They only "succeeded" by making an inferior kit. Besides the aesthetic issues they reduced a nice simple resin kit to a giant pile of plastic pieces with tons of gaps to fill, mold lines everywhere, etc. I would much rather pay a higher price and get the original FW kit.

2) This only worked for the Baneblade because IG are very popular and a Baneblade is an extremely obvious purchase (especially with GW doing everything they can to convince you to buy it). That just isn't going to work for most FW stuff. For example, without taking away Baneblade sales (and therefore making the whole thing pointless) how do you sell the Macharius/Malcador/Valdor/etc? How many superheavies can you sell to a single IG player? Now repeat this question for every other army, you'll find that there are very few FW kits that can safely be expected to sell enough to justify plastic production.

 Jordan wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote: Even if they are limited to resin, I find it hard to believe they are running at peak efficiency of the technique and charging a price that is actually in line with what that would be. I've never done resin casting, but my comment about backyarder vs company is because I have done small scale metal working, fabrication and carbon/kevlar/fibreglass resin composite manufacturing and I know for me to make 1 or 2 or 10 copies of a component by myself in my garage will take me significantly longer per part per person than if the same things were made in copies of 50 or 500 in a larger facility with a properly tuned production line of several people

All of those things you mentioned can be (and often are) automated, resin casting miniatures cannot. Garage casters and Forge World use the exact same process, which is the peak of efficiency for resin casting miniatures. It's a primitive process, but unless you want to invest many, many Gs into extrusion and injection equipment, it's what you've got to work with.

I wasn't talking about expensive automating though, I was just talking about a streamlined production. Also, the composite work I was doing I'm sure is no easier to automate than resin casting.


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 Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by plastic technology just not allowing it, sure, it wouldn't work for their entire range, but for many of FW's models that are large and don't have a lot of fine detail, plastic would work fine, look at most the titans and Imperial Navy and large vehicles and they have significantly LESS detail than your average plastic model plane or boat or car, hell, much of it could be made from PVC (obviously not the small detailed models, but many of the eldar titans are similarly detailed as PVC models and then could have a resin/metal/whatever pilot).

It's not the level of detail (though that is a major factor, FW kits have MUCH more detail than GW's plastic kits), it's how the detail is constructed. You can't do undercuts with plastic kits, which means a lot of FW models simply can't be done in plastic (all of my DKoK models, for example). And for the ones that can, there would have to be modifications. For example, look at the plastic Leman Russ kit carefully and you'll see that the "round" holes in the exhaust cover are not actually circles, they're oval-shaped to remove the undercuts that would happen with true circles. On the other hand, the FW Leman Russ kit has perfect circles. It might not be a big difference for the average player who just wants something vaguely tank-shaped so they can win games, but the people who buy FW stuff are much more concerned with tiny details like that.

Kits can be redesigned with draft angles. You don't have to make the exact same pieces in order to make the same kit. I also specifically said "[plastic] would not work for their entire range" in case you missed that.

As for your other points. I have no experienced the plastic Baneblade model myself, but several of the FW resin kits which I've seen look significantly more of a pain in the arse than most plastic kits I've assembled (and I'm not just talking about GW, I'm talking about boats and cars and planes as well).

As for the scale of selling, I'm not going to guess at the production numbers required for making plastic kits justifiable. It seems to me that other model making companies make large plastic kits with low runs and while they are sometimes expensive to compensate for low number of sales (more expensive than GW plastics), they're still cheaper than FW resin. But based on what Sean has said, that's not even necessary, if FW wanted to produce resin models in large number from the sounds of things, they could.

If you've ever been to the aquatics section of a pet store, many of the little decorative items you can put into an aquarium are likely produced the way you mentioned. It's not impossible, but in regards to miniature casting, we've all been through the Finecast fiasco, which leads me to believe GW should reserve spin casting for metal where the introduction of air is limited to begin with.

High detail miniatures that have lots of tiny details and undercuts (think of the Death Korps gas mask hoses) present issues to the spin casting process, making trapped air in those areas very likely. For something like detailed jewelry as you mentioned, spin casting is a good solution. Part of the reason many of the once-metal now-Finecast miniatures are posed the way they are is to allow the more efficient spin casting process to work correctly by minimizing undercuts and fine details that wouldn't be filled in by the spinning action of the machinery. FW could use this technique to great effect, but in my opinion, it would mean losing some of the dynamic posing options that are more easily attained with pressure casting. The same issue is presented with a milled injection plastic mold--everything has to be kind of flat.

Spin casting equipment isn't terribly more expensive than pressure casting, especially not for a company like Forge World. Some of their models are now made using the spin casting process, and thus far (at least from what I've read) are of lesser quality than their usual pressure cast goodies and have the same issues as Finecast.

I don't claim to know why FW does what they do, for all I know, the production crew may have a deathly fear of spinning silicone, but the explanation I mentioned makes sense to me (obviously).

AllSeeingSkink wrote: I wasn't talking about expensive automating though, I was just talking about a streamlined production.

The process doesn't get much more streamlined than one step: pour liquid resin into the mold and wait for it to cure. There's no fat to trim.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I also specifically said "[plastic] would not work for their entire range" in case you missed that.

So what's the point then? Most of their range can't be done in plastic, so we've moved from "independent retailers selling FW" to "independent retailers selling a small part of FW's range which may or may not even be the kits that people want to buy". The fact that it might be possible and profitable to turn a small number of kits into plastic ones doesn't change the overall situation.

But based on what Sean has said, that's not even necessary, if FW wanted to produce resin models in large number from the sounds of things, they could.

And, again, the question is should they increase the scale of their production. Is there enough demand for specific kits to pay a lot of money up front to switch to large-scale production methods? Is that demand widely distributed enough to justify having every retail store stock FW kits? Will the increased sales from reduced prices actually be more profitable, or is it better to just sell a smaller number of kits at a higher price?

The answers to these questions probably do not favor large-scale production. FW is probably in a situation where they sell small numbers of each of a wide range of kits, which is the exact opposite of what you want for efficient mass production.

I can't help but feel as though we've strayed from the original topic of the thread.

Resin casting general?

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
I think the problem really is supply and demand. As in, they're both so exceptionally low there is no reason that indie shops will want to sell them.

Regarding this in general - a few years back (would need to double check the exact year) the FW revenue was stated in one of their annual reports. At that time, it was a few million pounds revenue - I am sure that it has gone up some since then. That would put them leaps and bounds ahead of many of the smaller miniature companies who sell resin and metal products. Most indie shops would carry FW items happily if they were offered favorable terms on them.

One of the stores I go to with some frequency carries the full line of Scribor and HiTech figures - all in resin, and they apparently sell quite well. By making the FW items artificially scarce, they make them less likely to sell. Some one may be inclined to pick up something he sees three or four times in a store, while they will be less inclined to send money half way around the globe to hope that they get a clean kit the first go and not run into other issues (lost/damaged packages and what not).

Resin casting is more difficult to do en masse - but it isn't impossible by any stretch. There are a lot of companies who cast up hundreds of thousands of resin items each year - and do so relatively successfully.

Yes, but the thing is unlike most other retailers, who require resin as they cannot invest in plastic moulding due to the cost, Forge World is seen as a luxury good among GW players.

Most Vets GW armies will have 1 or 2 units from FW, and the rest of the army plastic, with only a scattering in full FW resin. Demand is low.

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
I think the problem really is supply and demand. As in, they're both so exceptionally low there is no reason that indie shops will want to sell them.

Regarding this in general - a few years back (would need to double check the exact year) the FW revenue was stated in one of their annual reports. At that time, it was a few million pounds revenue - I am sure that it has gone up some since then. That would put them leaps and bounds ahead of many of the smaller miniature companies who sell resin and metal products. Most indie shops would carry FW items happily if they were offered favorable terms on them.

One of the stores I go to with some frequency carries the full line of Scribor and HiTech figures - all in resin, and they apparently sell quite well. By making the FW items artificially scarce, they make them less likely to sell. Some one may be inclined to pick up something he sees three or four times in a store, while they will be less inclined to send money half way around the globe to hope that they get a clean kit the first go and not run into other issues (lost/damaged packages and what not).

Resin casting is more difficult to do en masse - but it isn't impossible by any stretch. There are a lot of companies who cast up hundreds of thousands of resin items each year - and do so relatively successfully.

Yes, but the thing is unlike most other retailers, who require resin as they cannot invest in plastic moulding due to the cost, Forge World is seen as a luxury good among GW players.

Most Vets GW armies will have 1 or 2 units from FW, and the rest of the army plastic, with only a scattering in full FW resin. Demand is low.

Or is demand low because you have to deal directly with Forge World?

When Forgeworld first started doing kits - they were pricey compared to plastic kits...now they are cheaper than comparable finecast and in many cases comparable to plastic kits. The price point is no longer niche within a niche - it is mainstream and would probably show up much more often (especially DKoK or Elysians which are very popular in terms of their look) and with the introduction of the various Heresy Era miniatures for Space Marines...you would likely see full armies much more often (especially if you happen to live in Australia, where Forge World is at times a discount over GW prices). Right now most the complete FW armies I see are actually from people who live in the UK, where they are not dealing with such a significant removal from the source (which still remains a significant psychological barrier for many people).

High detail miniatures that have lots of tiny details and undercuts (think of the Death Korps gas mask hoses) present issues to the spin casting process, making trapped air in those areas very likely. For something like detailed jewelry as you mentioned, spin casting is a good solution. Part of the reason many of the once-metal now-Finecast miniatures are posed the way they are is to allow the more efficient spin casting process to work correctly by minimizing undercuts and fine details that wouldn't be filled in by the spinning action of the machinery. FW could use this technique to great effect, but in my opinion, it would mean losing some of the dynamic posing options that are more easily attained with pressure casting. The same issue is presented with a milled injection plastic mold--everything has to be kind of flat.

I actually use spin casting for most of my figures - resin or metal. It doesn't have any limitations or strengths and doesn't care if the process is waiting for resin to cure or metal to cool - the physics remove the air. I would use it for larger things like vehicles as well - but unfortunately, my setup can not handle molds larger than 12" (which ends up limiting the size of individual objects to about 3" or so). The only thing you have to do is select the right resin (set time, viscosity) and tune your process (RPM speed for the spin casting machine and vents in the mold) in order to get the castings to come out perfect each time. Normally the only issues I have is when a vent has a little bit of cured resin stuck in it from the last cast that prevents the next cast from properly filling.

If anything, I have found the spin casting to be better than pressure vessels in terms of eliminating air from casts as - it is a constant process. As soon as the resin hits the spinning mold, it starts to pull the resin to the outside and force the air out vents. It continues to try and do that right up until the resin has fully cured. Now, if I don't spin it long enough and the resin is still liquid (or too soft) it will attempt to self-level...which is a problem for resin casts and looks to have been a problem for some of the early Finecast. The other issue is when you don't spin the mold fast enough or if the resin sets too fast for a highly viscous resin. In those cases...the air bubbles remain trapped before the forces involved have a chance to move the air out of the cavity. Again, that seems to have been a problem that GW had.

Provided you do the testing or just take appropriate precautions to begin with - you can avoid all of those problems...whether it is an aquarium decoration, jewelry or miniatures.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Or is demand low because you have to deal directly with Forge World?

Yes. Which, again, is exactly how Forgeworld want it.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Or is demand low because you have to deal directly with Forge World?

Yes. Which, again, is exactly how Forgeworld want it.

I don't disagree with that being the way that they want it - it also ensures higher margins than if they would need to offer wholesale terms. However, whether or not they could do something is different than whether or not they should or would do something. They definitely could do it and remain profitable. I would wager based on my own anecdotal observations that they probably should, as it would greatly increase both the volume of sales for FW (which is generally a good thing) and the benefit to their customers (by providing better access to products). I doubt they will do that though - as it isn't within GW's general business plan.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
(by providing better access to products)

I think you're seriously overstating the difficulty in getting FW stuff. Ordering direct from FW is easier (and much more convenient) than buying stuff at a GW store, and everyone is already used to buying pizza/books/etc online so the whole "online shopping is scary" thing isn't a valid excuse anymore. I really doubt there's a huge unexploited market out there waiting to buy FW stuff if only they made it even easier to buy.

Now, cost is certainly a factor, but it's far from obvious that FW would make more money overall by selling more models at a lower price, especially once production issues are considered.

Talk about how a company that sells a premium product can't afford to invest in different technology is pure BS. Especially one who is making money and it's parent is making money. $100,000 is for tooling really isn't that much. Even $1m or $2m isn't that big a stretch given the upside potential.

Their quality control is crap, everyone knows it. This could easily be rectified, but for whatever reason they choose to ignore it. Somehow it just adds to the charm.

They could switch to doing plastic instead of resin and they could certainly up the number of miniatures they sell. But they won't. FW is synonymous with resin figures; to move away from that would be akin to selling their soul. More than that, I'm pretty sure GW wouldn't allow it. If FW moved to plastics then they would be directly competing with GW for model sales; and that isn't going to happen.

I would absolutely love to be able to buy FW through an american outlet. One where I don't have to pay for the currency exchange as well as outrageous international shipping. But that is unlikely to ever happen because it is now, and has always been, a premium/exclusive product. FW is now, and has always been, a boutique style model maker. Their selling point is simply that not everyone is going to buy their product.

All of which means that they have zero interest in changing manufacturing. Whether that be capacity, capability or materials. All talk otherwise is just a waste.

Anyone can sell FW kits. They simply have to first buy them from FW at the same cost you and I pay. This means that there is no reseller discount and thus no profit for resellers. No profit means no reselling.

Forge World does not have a distribution network. Everything is direct sales only. They don't even sell through GW stores anymore, which really irritated the hell out of the guys at the Seattle Bunker. Could they change their operation and sell through a distributer? Yes, but they don't want to and in the end, that's there decision to make.

Its carried my FLGS. Seems to be a little over priced for the casual customer.

clively wrote:
Talk about how a company that sells a premium product can't afford to invest in different technology is pure BS. Especially one who is making money and it's parent is making money. $100,000 is for tooling really isn't that much. Even $1m or $2m isn't that big a stretch given the upside potential.

Sure. But is there enough of a market to justify that $100k? If you aren't going to make $100k more profit from it then it's still a stupid plan even if you can afford it.

They could switch to doing plastic instead of resin and they could certainly up the number of miniatures they sell.

No they can't. For technical reasons the kits can not be produced in plastic, doing so would require completely redesigning them and losing most of the details that make people buy FW stuff.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I would wager based on my own anecdotal observations that they probably should, as it would greatly increase both the volume of sales for FW (which is generally a good thing)

It's a good thing if your business plan is based on increasing revenue, certainly.

Not so good if your plan is instead to produce a premium-priced product that has increased status due to being comparitively rare. The more you sell, the more you hurt that status.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I've always heard the excuse that Forgeworld couldn't handle the stock issues.

That

Makes

No

Sense

Business would be terrible because they are constantly selling out their stock to IR? They wouldn't be able to expand their business further to support the higher demand? What business intentionally avoids sales for the sole purpose of remaining stagnant?

Renendra.

a maxed out schedule and amazing product leads to high demand.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
(by providing better access to products)

I think you're seriously overstating the difficulty in getting FW stuff. Ordering direct from FW is easier (and much more convenient) than buying stuff at a GW store, and everyone is already used to buying pizza/books/etc online so the whole "online shopping is scary" thing isn't a valid excuse anymore. I really doubt there's a huge unexploited market out there waiting to buy FW stuff if only they made it even easier to buy.

Now, cost is certainly a factor, but it's far from obvious that FW would make more money overall by selling more models at a lower price, especially once production issues are considered.

I think you are seriously ignoring the psychological factors which exist in retail sales. When a product is front of a customer, they are much more likely to buy it than if they have to search out a sole source (even an easy to find one) and buy it, deal with shipping and all the rest.

Some people still prefer to purchase locally - it might seem odd to web savvy individuals like yourself, but if it weren't an issue at all...GW would shut down all of their retail stores and stop selling through any wholesale chains, after all - you can buy directly through their website.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I would wager based on my own anecdotal observations that they probably should, as it would greatly increase both the volume of sales for FW (which is generally a good thing)

It's a good thing if your business plan is based on increasing revenue, certainly.

Not so good if your plan is instead to produce a premium-priced product that has increased status due to being comparitively rare. The more you sell, the more you hurt that status.

That might be true if they had that sort of status to begin with - which, I don't think they did. Even discounting that - I don't think you find too many people who treat their FW figures like they do something like a Rolex, Coach bag or even numbered Hummel figurines. They end up in discount locations like eBay often enough - and probably just as often get scrapped with the rest of GW goods when people get bored with them.

No they can't. For technical reasons the kits can not be produced in plastic, doing so would require completely redesigning them and losing most of the details that make people buy FW stuff.

Yes - they would need to make some changes. No - it wouldn't be all that difficult to do. No - it wouldn't mean loosing most of the details that make people buy FW stuff. You can walk into any hobby shop and find 1:72 and 1:48 scale armor kits that are as detailed or more so than FW kits. You can find 1:35 scale kits that make FW kits look like something a child built with silly putty. The technical reasons are not nearly as difficult to overcome now as they were 15 or 20 years ago when it would require a skilled pattern maker to figure out how to break down the model for the sprues - various software packages are able to automate that task and allow a designer to quickly make the needed adjustments.

I don't think they will do it - though it isn't because of any technical reason. GW has an idea, and they don't like to deviate from it no matter what.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
That might be true if they had that sort of status to begin with - which, I don't think they did.

When you're talking about why FW conduct business the way they do, whether or not that status actually exists is kind of secondary to whether or not FW think it exists...


For what it's worth, I think they certainly had that status, once upon a time. But as Forgeworld stuff has become more common on the tabletop, it's lost some of that wow factor. Which, in itself, sort of backs up FW's position.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
You can walk into any hobby shop and find 1:72 and 1:48 scale armor kits that are as detailed or more so than FW kits.

Now look at more than just the vehicles. For example, it is not possible to do DKoK in plastic. There's way too many undercuts and subtle detail. For example, the hoses on the gas masks are separate from the body with a visible gap between the hose and chest, but you can't do that with plastic. Either you'd have to make a tiny and extremely fragile piece just for the hose, or you'd have to crush it down into the chest of the model and have it just be a raised bump instead of a separate hose. Same thing for stuff like the folds in the coats, the helmet details, etc. And if you remove all of that you remove the entire reason people buy DKoK and create just another Cadian kit.

As for the vehicles, sure, you could probably do it. But can you do it without making a kit full of so many tiny parts that you just replace "it's too expensive" with "no way I could possibly build that" and keep it a niche market product without any real increase in sales?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
You can walk into any hobby shop and find 1:72 and 1:48 scale armor kits that are as detailed or more so than FW kits.

Now look at more than just the vehicles. For example, it is not possible to do DKoK in plastic. There's way too many undercuts and subtle detail. For example, the hoses on the gas masks are separate from the body with a visible gap between the hose and chest, but you can't do that with plastic. Either you'd have to make a tiny and extremely fragile piece just for the hose, or you'd have to crush it down into the chest of the model and have it just be a raised bump instead of a separate hose. Same thing for stuff like the folds in the coats, the helmet details, etc. And if you remove all of that you remove the entire reason people buy DKoK and create just another Cadian kit.

As for the vehicles, sure, you could probably do it. But can you do it without making a kit full of so many tiny parts that you just replace "it's too expensive" with "no way I could possibly build that" and keep it a niche market product without any real increase in sales?

Yeah dude, competent model companies in every way shape or form could something as complex (lol) as DKoK. Tamiya has churned out infantry models at comparable scales that are every bit as complex as FW DKoK and Elysian offerings......and has been doing so for the last 20 years (when the tech to produce said models was crap). Tamiya, Bandai, Hasegawa, Kotobukiya, Monogram, Revell.....all companies that could make anything that GW can make. There's nothing complex about any of the GW or FW models whether they be infantry, armor, or air. Slapping skulls on this crap doesn't make models hard to produce.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
Yeah dude, competent model companies in every way shape or form could something as complex (lol) as DKoK.

Link to other companies producing 28mm (or approximately equal scale) plastic figures with an equal level of detail?

Slapping skulls on this crap doesn't make models hard to produce.

I really don't know how you managed to read the post you quoted and miss the entire point that it's about undercuts and minimum feature size, not how many skulls are on the model. Perhaps you should go back and read it again?

 Peregrine wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
Yeah dude, competent model companies in every way shape or form could something as complex (lol) as DKoK.

Link to other companies producing 28mm (or approximately equal scale) plastic figures with an equal level of detail?

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/mmv/index.htm#catalog
I'm pretty sure the only thing Tamiya is missing is the gas masks.

Sean_OBrien wrote:I actually use spin casting for most of my figures - resin or metal. It doesn't have any limitations or strengths and doesn't care if the process is waiting for resin to cure or metal to cool - the physics remove the air. I would use it for larger things like vehicles as well - but unfortunately, my setup can not handle molds larger than 12" (which ends up limiting the size of individual objects to about 3" or so). The only thing you have to do is select the right resin (set time, viscosity) and tune your process (RPM speed for the spin casting machine and vents in the mold) in order to get the castings to come out perfect each time. Normally the only issues I have is when a vent has a little bit of cured resin stuck in it from the last cast that prevents the next cast from properly filling.

If anything, I have found the spin casting to be better than pressure vessels in terms of eliminating air from casts as - it is a constant process. As soon as the resin hits the spinning mold, it starts to pull the resin to the outside and force the air out vents. It continues to try and do that right up until the resin has fully cured. Now, if I don't spin it long enough and the resin is still liquid (or too soft) it will attempt to self-level...which is a problem for resin casts and looks to have been a problem for some of the early Finecast. The other issue is when you don't spin the mold fast enough or if the resin sets too fast for a highly viscous resin. In those cases...the air bubbles remain trapped before the forces involved have a chance to move the air out of the cavity. Again, that seems to have been a problem that GW had.

Provided you do the testing or just take appropriate precautions to begin with - you can avoid all of those problems...whether it is an aquarium decoration, jewelry or miniatures.

It's good that someone is getting good results from spin casting miniatures, and if you're getting bubble-free results, GW could certainly learn a thing or two about your techniques. A primary problem, again, is the presence of undercuts and details that tend to trap voids in spin casts. DKoK great coats are a great example of what I'm talking about. Cracking a one-piece mold open and pouring resin into a pressure mold tends only to leave small air bubbles rather than voids, which shrink under pressure.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
You can walk into any hobby shop and find 1:72 and 1:48 scale armor kits that are as detailed or more so than FW kits.

Now look at more than just the vehicles. For example, it is not possible to do DKoK in plastic. There's way too many undercuts and subtle detail. For example, the hoses on the gas masks are separate from the body with a visible gap between the hose and chest, but you can't do that with plastic. Either you'd have to make a tiny and extremely fragile piece just for the hose, or you'd have to crush it down into the chest of the model and have it just be a raised bump instead of a separate hose. Same thing for stuff like the folds in the coats, the helmet details, etc. And if you remove all of that you remove the entire reason people buy DKoK and create just another Cadian kit.

As for the vehicles, sure, you could probably do it. But can you do it without making a kit full of so many tiny parts that you just replace "it's too expensive" with "no way I could possibly build that" and keep it a niche market product without any real increase in sales?

As Godzilla said, take a look at something like Tamiya's WWII infantry or even Warlord's WWII plastics. The gas masks are easy enough to attach to the front of the head as separate parts (no more difficult than hair is to attach to the back of heads which have visible pony tails and the like). Folds are pretty easy to deal with - again, Tamiya does a whole lot of cloth in their figures. You can't do certain things in plastic - but they are hardly deal breakers. The bigger issue though is that the DKoK are one army of several which FW do, and the only one which might take a significant level of thought (though nothing which hasn't been overcome). Although they would be more delicate kits than something like the chunky GW kits - that would allow them to keep their mystique. Everything would still be much larger than what you would find with something like 1:350 scale naval model kits where bits are so tiny that you have to use tweezers to assemble the models.

Many of the other kits could very easily be adapted to plastic (or as add-on kits to existing plastic - like the conversion sprues which were done for variant Space Marine armies). They could easily do that for a majority of the vehicles, figures and what they can't handle with add-on sprues can remain resin or be adapted to complete kits - especially those which have significant in game value (as they have already done with Baneblades, drop pods and several other kits).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jordan wrote:

Sean_OBrien wrote:I actually use spin casting for most of my figures - resin or metal. It doesn't have any limitations or strengths and doesn't care if the process is waiting for resin to cure or metal to cool - the physics remove the air. I would use it for larger things like vehicles as well - but unfortunately, my setup can not handle molds larger than 12" (which ends up limiting the size of individual objects to about 3" or so). The only thing you have to do is select the right resin (set time, viscosity) and tune your process (RPM speed for the spin casting machine and vents in the mold) in order to get the castings to come out perfect each time. Normally the only issues I have is when a vent has a little bit of cured resin stuck in it from the last cast that prevents the next cast from properly filling.

If anything, I have found the spin casting to be better than pressure vessels in terms of eliminating air from casts as - it is a constant process. As soon as the resin hits the spinning mold, it starts to pull the resin to the outside and force the air out vents. It continues to try and do that right up until the resin has fully cured. Now, if I don't spin it long enough and the resin is still liquid (or too soft) it will attempt to self-level...which is a problem for resin casts and looks to have been a problem for some of the early Finecast. The other issue is when you don't spin the mold fast enough or if the resin sets too fast for a highly viscous resin. In those cases...the air bubbles remain trapped before the forces involved have a chance to move the air out of the cavity. Again, that seems to have been a problem that GW had.

Provided you do the testing or just take appropriate precautions to begin with - you can avoid all of those problems...whether it is an aquarium decoration, jewelry or miniatures.

It's good that someone is getting good results from spin casting miniatures, and if you're getting bubble-free results, GW could certainly learn a thing or two about your techniques. A primary problem, again, is the presence of undercuts and details that tend to trap voids in spin casts. DKoK great coats are a great example of what I'm talking about. Cracking a one-piece mold open and pouring resin into a pressure mold tends only to leave small air bubbles rather than voids, which shrink under pressure.

Don't think I am doing anything magic - just venting the molds properly for resin. I was shown the technique by the same people I wrote the software for - I am sure that with GW's resources, they should be able to find someone who is capable of explaining how to vent resin molds properly for spin casting. The big problem that I have seen is that some people seem to confuse vents with gates and cut massive notches for them. That creates a mess. Air doesn't need much room to get out of the mold - and if you cut your vents small enough, they almost brush right off, so having plenty of them isn't problematic.