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Honestly why? I would think that they would make so much more money and be more popular if they allowed IR, or even GW stores to sell FW products. Can anyone tell me a legitimate reason why they don't allow it?

I don't think the forgeworld products are held in large enough stock to distrubute them to sellers. Plus why would GW want to water down the exclusive nature of their premium product.

Don't quote me on any of this, it is what I have been lead to believe with other similar conversations./

I've always heard the excuse that Forgeworld couldn't handle the stock issues.

That

Makes

No

Sense

Business would be terrible because they are constantly selling out their stock to IR? They wouldn't be able to expand their business further to support the higher demand? What business intentionally avoids sales for the sole purpose of remaining stagnant?

 King of the Elves wrote:
Honestly why? I would think that they would make so much more money and be more popular if they allowed IR, or even GW stores to sell FW products. Can anyone tell me a legitimate reason why they don't allow it?

Independent retailers certainly could. They're just not going to get any discount. Wouldn't prevent them from buying a truckload and selling it above MSRP though.

They're not sold at all GW locations because the nature of the resin casting process doesn't make it as easy to mass produce like they can with plastic. Second, many of the FW kits are for more experienced modelers and aren't aimed at the younger demographic. Third, working with resin requires additional steps and hazards. Again, not ideal for the "normal" patron.

There are two pretty good reasons.

1.) FW doesn't give a discounts to retailers. So if a retailer got you a kit, it would really be them doing you a favor acting as a middleman.

Reason 1 could be gotten around if GW/FW changed their terms, but that's neither here nor there till they do. Here's the real kicker...

2.) FW kits are bad. Like really bad. Quality control wise I mean. The chances are very high that you'll get at least one part you'll want replaced because of miscasting on anything save for shoulder pads or Rhino doors. The quality control is simply terrible. While FW (as well as GW) customer service is great, and they'll totally replace anything you ask them to, a store is probably not going to want to hassle with that order after order..

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I've always heard the excuse that Forgeworld couldn't handle the stock issues.

That

Makes

No

Sense

Business would be terrible because they are constantly selling out their stock to IR? They wouldn't be able to expand their business further to support the higher demand? What business intentionally avoids sales for the sole purpose of remaining stagnant?

It makes plenty of sense. Do you have any evidence that selling them in stores would lead to a large enough increase in volume to warrant hiring another employee?

I understand that FW gives no discounts to realtors, thats a big reason, but my question is why? They can mass produce resin, look at finecast. It may suck, but hey they don't argue with you when you try and get a replacement. And honestly, when has GW cared about how hard a kit was to put together? You simply make better instructions and sell it. I believe they are more concerned with how it will sell than "Will little 13 year old Johnny be able to build it" I don't know seems just a big money maker that GW could (with some time, and of course money) really do, and I'm sure it would help their approval ratings a little bit

 cincydooley wrote:


They're not sold at all GW locations because the nature of the resin casting process doesn't make it as easy to mass produce like they can with plastic.

As someone who casts resin using the same process FW uses, this is exactly the case. Resin casting is a relatively labor intensive process if you want to consistently create bubble-free castings, and while they've scaled up in recent years, the process is still VERY much made-to-order in many cases.

mightyGodzilla wrote: FW kits are bad. Like really bad. Quality control wise I mean.

Not so much any more, but it does still carry the standard QC risks that come with all resin products.

King of the Elves wrote: I understand that FW gives no discounts to realtors, thats a big reason, but my question is why?

Resin casting is a very labor intensive process that has no capacity for automation. The labor requirement "curve" is a straight line. The only way to put out more parts is to hire more workers, buy more pots and pump more air.

King of the Elves wrote: They can mass produce resin, look at finecast. It may suck,

Exactly. I'm given to understand they're trying to spin-cast resin the same way they spun-cast metal. Resin doesn't work that way, meaning any production advantages they had with their old metal process go flying out the window.

King of the Elves wrote: but hey they don't argue with you when you try and get a replacement.

Not really the case any more.

King of the Elves wrote:I don't know seems just a big money maker that GW could (with some time, and of course money) really do, and I'm sure it would help their approval ratings a little bit

The problem is the nature of resin casting. There's just no way around how finely detailed resin models get cast, so there's no way to make the process more efficient and therefore less expensive. And if there are models in high demand (like every Throne damned thing in the Heresy range), then there's really no way to create a back stock for themselves, let alone for GW stores or independent retailers.

Probably because they know someone willing to pay the massive premium is also someone who is happy enough to just order online so they can keep all the profits instead of handing it over to retailers.

Or you know...what Jordan said as he seems to know what the feth he's talking about rather than listen to another GW hating circle-jerk.

Finecast is a resin-plastic hybrid it's not a proper resin like forgeworld's products are.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
What business intentionally avoids sales for the sole purpose of remaining stagnant?

It's not about being stagnant.

As Forgeworld have explained it in the past, they see one of the big drawcards for their models being the fact that they are comparitively rare compared to regular GW models. Take away that rarity, and you take away a lot of the attraction for some potential customers. People pay more on the basis that the model they are buying is a little more 'special'.

Orktavius wrote:
Or you know...what Jordan said as he seems to know what the feth he's talking about rather than listen to another GW hating circle-jerk.

Finecast is a resin-plastic hybrid it's not a proper resin like forgeworld's products are.

No doubt what Jordan said is true, but at the same time if they wanted to expand their efforts, I'm sure they could. I don't buy the idea that they are limited by the technology and manpower, if they wanted to improve technology they have more resources than your average backyard resin model maker and/or they could outsource or expand on manpower. IMO, they'd rather stay niche and sell premium products directly than attempt to become widespread.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
Or you know...what Jordan said as he seems to know what the feth he's talking about rather than listen to another GW hating circle-jerk.

Finecast is a resin-plastic hybrid it's not a proper resin like forgeworld's products are.

No doubt what Jordan said is true, but at the same time if they wanted to expand their efforts, I'm sure they could. I don't buy the idea that they are limited by the technology and manpower, if they wanted to improve technology they have more resources than your average backyard resin model maker and/or they could outsource or expand on manpower. IMO, they'd rather stay niche and sell premium products directly than attempt to become widespread.

So you're knocking Forgeworld for not investing millions of pounds into developing new and innovative casting methods? I'm sure they're working as hard as they can

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
No doubt what Jordan said is true, but at the same time if they wanted to expand their efforts, I'm sure they could. I don't buy the idea that they are limited by the technology and manpower, if they wanted to improve technology they have more resources than your average backyard resin model maker and/or they could outsource or expand on manpower. IMO, they'd rather stay niche and sell premium products directly than attempt to become widespread.

Sure, they could expand production, but could they expand production and still make a profit? The problem is very simple:

Right now they have one set of stock, and every order is drawn from it. Even rare and/or low-volume items are not a problem because you just have to have one of them in stock at a time.

To expand to local stores they'd have to pay for a huge increase in the amount of stock they have available. So say you want a Thunderhawk from your local store. That's great for your local store, but people don't buy Thunderhawks very often. So that Thunderhawk kit probably sat on your store's shelf for months (taking up space that could be used for other products), and there's a dozen other stores in your area with Thunderhawks that didn't sell. And that's the fatal problem: FW had to pay to produce all of those non-selling Thunderhawks, along with lots of other low-volume models that aren't selling.

So, you have a choice: you can either buy from one central location at current prices, or you can pay much higher prices and buy locally. I think the choice is pretty obvious.

 King of the Elves wrote:
They can mass produce resin, look at finecast. It may suck, but hey they don't argue with you when you try and get a replacement.

Only one problem here: the 10 year old buying space marines with daddy's credit card probably doesn't care about failcast's appallingly poor quality control. Who cares if the face is a giant bubble, it's all going to be buried under thick layers of paint anyway (if it ever gets painted) and probably thrown away in a few weeks with the kid gets bored with the whole thing. Who cares if tip of the sword is broken off, the kid is probably going to play with it roughly and break the whole sword off anyway. Nor will the tournament players really care, as long as it's still WYSIWYG and wins games. So yeah, they're forced to give replacement after replacement to the few people who care, but they make lots of easy profit off people who don't.

FW kits, on the other hand, tend to go to dedicated hobbyists who care a lot about quality. So if quality drops to failcast levels they'd be facing a near-100% return rate, and lose money on every sale.

I believe they are more concerned with how it will sell than "Will little 13 year old Johnny be able to build it"

Until Johnny's parents come back and demand a refund because little Johnny can't build his $150 airplane model. And since he doesn't have a clue about building large and expensive resin kits he's probably ruined it, so GW is out $150.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

No doubt what Jordan said is true, but at the same time if they wanted to expand their efforts, I'm sure they could. I don't buy the idea that they are limited by the technology and manpower, if they wanted to improve technology they have more resources than your average backyard resin model maker and/or they could outsource or expand on manpower. IMO, they'd rather stay niche and sell premium products directly than attempt to become widespread.

It's not a matter of whether or not you buy it, it is the way it is. You can get into resin casting yourself for around a hundred bucks (USD), do some shoulder pads, holsters, crates or whatever, and you'll see exactly what I mean. For two or three hundred, you can do pressure casting, same as FW.

The resin casting process differs greatly from the next step up in producing models, which would be injection molding. Resin can't be reliquefied, which means injection is out after the first casting, as hardened resin would clog the injectors. It's too brittle to be used in a machined mold, leading to broken models. The silicone molds that give resin the fine detail can't handle injection pressure.

So what you're left with is a primitive process where a worker has to take a silicone mold, hold it open (or prep the two-part mold) so resin gets into all the little nooks and crannies, pour liquid resin into a number of molds, massage out any air pockets, clamp together the top of the molds (to reduce flash), place the molds in a pressure container and leave it in there 'til the resin cures. Then everything is demolded by hand, and the process repeats itself, and that's not even getting into how each mold is created individually and very, very carefully.

There's no way to automate this process. Resin cure times are what they are. If you want more models, you need more workers pouring more resin into more molds, curing in more pots with more air.



I've heard several theories about GW's marketing strategy, the one that makes some sense to me is that they want to be a "designer" game. I don't get it at all, but I don't run the company or have shares, so they've got me by the short ones. Maybe Forge World does want to remain niche, but that doesn't change the limits they face in the very nature of what they're doing.

Peregrine wrote: So, you have a choice: you can either buy from one central location at current prices, or you can pay much higher prices and buy locally. I think the choice is pretty obvious.

Also worth noting is the benefit of having a uniform production curve: FW (and when I say FW, I'm projecting my breathtakingly large relative costs on them) can make a Thunderhawk mold for around a hundred bucks and that mold is good for, say, 50 pulls. A Thunderhawk can be produced in two or three hours for 35 bucks in resin and shipped out the next day, and the mold can sit for years before it's needed again, where they'll spend another 35 bucks to make, what? Four hundred? All without the need for a massive up-front cost of having an injection mold machined out.

BryllCream wrote:So you're knocking Forgeworld for not investing millions of pounds into developing new and innovative casting methods? I'm sure they're working as hard as they can

Do you have any idea how much gold toilet seats cost for each employee? And those hundred Pound note toilet paper rolls ain't cheap either! Priorities, man!

BryllCream wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
Or you know...what Jordan said as he seems to know what the feth he's talking about rather than listen to another GW hating circle-jerk.

Finecast is a resin-plastic hybrid it's not a proper resin like forgeworld's products are.

No doubt what Jordan said is true, but at the same time if they wanted to expand their efforts, I'm sure they could. I don't buy the idea that they are limited by the technology and manpower, if they wanted to improve technology they have more resources than your average backyard resin model maker and/or they could outsource or expand on manpower. IMO, they'd rather stay niche and sell premium products directly than attempt to become widespread.

So you're knocking Forgeworld for not investing millions of pounds into developing new and innovative casting methods? I'm sure they're working as hard as they can

I'm not knocking FW at all, get a grip, you're so caught up with haters vs white knights you can't even read anything without seeing it as some attack. I'm stating my opinion, nothing more.

Jordan wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

No doubt what Jordan said is true, but at the same time if they wanted to expand their efforts, I'm sure they could. I don't buy the idea that they are limited by the technology and manpower, if they wanted to improve technology they have more resources than your average backyard resin model maker and/or they could outsource or expand on manpower. IMO, they'd rather stay niche and sell premium products directly than attempt to become widespread.

It's not a matter of whether or not you buy it, it is the way it is. You can get into resin casting yourself for around a hundred bucks (USD), do some shoulder pads, holsters, crates or whatever, and you'll see exactly what I mean. For two or three hundred, you can do pressure casting, same as FW.

The resin casting process differs greatly from the next step up in producing models, which would be injection molding. Resin can't be reliquefied, which means injection is out after the first casting, as hardened resin would clog the injectors. It's too brittle to be used in a machined mold, leading to broken models. The silicone molds that give resin the fine detail can't handle injection pressure.

So what you're left with is a primitive process where a worker has to take a silicone mold, hold it open (or prep the two-part mold) so resin gets into all the little nooks and crannies, pour liquid resin into a number of molds, massage out any air pockets, clamp together the top of the molds (to reduce flash), place the molds in a pressure container and leave it in there 'til the resin cures. Then everything is demolded by hand, and the process repeats itself, and that's not even getting into how each mold is created individually and very, very carefully.

There's no way to automate this process. Resin cure times are what they are. If you want more models, you need more workers pouring more resin into more molds, curing in more pots with more air.

Yes, and I never said otherwise. But they also aren't a backyard operation. Sure, "I" could get in to pressure casting for a few hundred bucks, we're not talking about "me" or "you". I'm talking about FW, not a single person, a company that produces a product and can expand a workforce or change technology to suit the demand they have (or wish to create).

Silicone moulded resin casts aren't the only way to make models, though it might be a good way if all you're trying to do is short runs of premium priced products sold direct through an online store. IMO that's what's happening, the technique and manpower follows the business model they are pursuing more than the business model is limited by the technique and manpower.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Silicone moulded resin casts aren't the only way to make models, though it might be a good way if all you're trying to do is short runs of premium priced products sold direct through an online store. IMO that's what's happening, the technique and manpower follows the business model they are pursuing more than the business model is limited by the technique and manpower.

So what else are you going to do? You certainly aren't going to get any FW kits in plastic, the technology just doesn't allow it.

allseeingskink wrote:Yes, and I never said otherwise. But they also aren't a backyard operation. Sure, "I" could get in to pressure casting for a few hundred bucks, we're not talking about "me" or "you". I'm talking about FW, not a single person, a company that produces a product and can expand a workforce or change technology to suit the demand they have (or wish to create).

Silicone moulded resin casts aren't the only way to make models, though it might be a good way if all you're trying to do is short runs of premium priced products sold direct through an online store. IMO that's what's happening, the technique and manpower follows the business model they are pursuing more than the business model is limited by the technique and manpower.

Whether you, me, a backyard operation or a subsidiary of a million-pound corporation is irrelevant; the process is the same. The only difference is the quantities involved. When I, or the guys at Chapter House, or anyone else who pressure casts do our thing, we are literally doing exactly what FW workers do, faced with the exact same limitations of the medium. The only to make it more productive is to take that entire single-man concept and copy/paste it. But that doesn't make anything more efficient, it just means more is getting produced at a cost proportional to the expansion of the operation.

Of course they're not the only way to make models, but they are the best way to make large runs of highly detailed models without the monstrous upfront cost (and financial risk) of injection molding. There is no in-between, unfortunately.

Again, I don't know what FW's sales intentions are, but assuming they did want to expand, they're still faced with the limitations I mentioned.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

BryllCream wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
Or you know...what Jordan said as he seems to know what the feth he's talking about rather than listen to another GW hating circle-jerk.

Finecast is a resin-plastic hybrid it's not a proper resin like forgeworld's products are.

No doubt what Jordan said is true, but at the same time if they wanted to expand their efforts, I'm sure they could. I don't buy the idea that they are limited by the technology and manpower, if they wanted to improve technology they have more resources than your average backyard resin model maker and/or they could outsource or expand on manpower. IMO, they'd rather stay niche and sell premium products directly than attempt to become widespread.

So you're knocking Forgeworld for not investing millions of pounds into developing new and innovative casting methods? I'm sure they're working as hard as they can

I'm not knocking FW at all, get a grip, you're so caught up with haters vs white knights you can't even read anything without seeing it as some attack. I'm stating my opinion, nothing more.

I was commenting on your opinion, I wasn't applying a lable to you.

GW seem happy to leave it as a small premium operation. Given how well they seem to sell things there should be incentive to invest in it, expand it and get on top of that quality control. I doubt they would sell to retailers because they'll keep that exclusivity they want, but GW just don't seem to want to invest in FW either way. So the quality control issues are ongoing and when they do an event there's a huge rush on FW stuff because they can never make enough to meet demand.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I've always heard the excuse that Forgeworld couldn't handle the stock issues.

That

Makes

No

Sense

Business would be terrible because they are constantly selling out their stock to IR? They wouldn't be able to expand their business further to support the higher demand? What business intentionally avoids sales for the sole purpose of remaining stagnant?

Tons of companies do this. The higher volume you produce the more overheads you gather and the higher your goods cost to produce. Meaning they would make less per model than they currently do which may not be attractive. It's called variable cost.

Another issue on the IRs end that has been overlooked here (for those of us who dont live in the UK)

I ordered 2 books, 3 dreadnought sized models, and a Land Raider from FW, enough money to get free shipping...then had to pay 70$ of duty/brokerage fee when it arrived at my apartment. So without offering a steep discount to retailes FW would not be remotely appealing to non UK retailers.

 Lightcavalier wrote:
Another issue on the IRs end that has been overlooked here (for those of us who dont live in the UK)

I ordered 2 books, 3 dreadnought sized models, and a Land Raider from FW, enough money to get free shipping...then had to pay 70$ of duty/brokerage fee when it arrived at my apartment. So without offering a steep discount to retailes FW would not be remotely appealing to non UK retailers.

The duty you have been charged would have been from your own government. Business customers will be able to claim that back if they are VAT registered.

But he got taxed twice. Once by the Canadian government and once by Forgeworld who didn't deduct the 20% VAT he wasn't required to pay.

He didn't say anything about that and you can apply to get that refunded anyway.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

2.) FW kits are bad. Like really bad. Quality control wise I mean. The chances are very high that you'll get at least one part you'll want replaced because of miscasting on anything save for shoulder pads or Rhino doors. The quality control is simply terrible. While FW (as well as GW) customer service is great, and they'll totally replace anything you ask them to, a store is probably not going to want to hassle with that order after order..

Speaking from personnal experience? Otherwise, where'd you get that from, personally, I've only had one really gaky kit, out of the 4 time I bought from FW, my friend Bloodslaughter was also free of defect.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

2.) FW kits are bad. Like really bad. Quality control wise I mean. The chances are very high that you'll get at least one part you'll want replaced because of miscasting on anything save for shoulder pads or Rhino doors. The quality control is simply terrible. While FW (as well as GW) customer service is great, and they'll totally replace anything you ask them to, a store is probably not going to want to hassle with that order after order..

Speaking from personnal experience? Otherwise, where'd you get that from, personally, I've only had one really gaky kit, out of the 4 time I bought from FW, my friend Bloodslaughter was also free of defect.

Yes I'm speaking from personal experience. There are always going to be issues with resin casting, air bubbles and such that need to be fixed, I get that. It's par for the resin medium. I'm not even talking about poor fitting due to excessive warpage, because that's par for the course as well. But the QC should be in place to ensure when obvious things arrive, that I the customer shouldn't have to deal with it in the first place. And going back to my first post, I was saying that a store wouldn't want to have to act as a middleman if these things were sold en masse. And as a customer of an IR, I'd expect them to.

But going back to personal experience. I've ordered several rhino doors and should pads for termies, no issue at. Some of the other stuff that I did have to send back were...

Most recently
Eldar Avatar - missing the last half of the pinky finger on the right hand. Totally gone, how'd ya miss that? And an air bubble on the right shoulder ornament so bad that it compromised the entire shoulder piece.
Eldar Wraitseer - a huge air bubble in his staff at the midpoint, big enough to render the staff hollow. Again, if your job is to look at a part and bin it if it's poor, it would have been easy to spot.
Eldar Wave Serpent - Air bubbling in the rear portion of the cannon itself. TBH it was extensive, but with work I could have fixed it myself, but as it was in the exact same order as the two above I decided not to settle.

Prior occasions
Wave serpents, First generation - Air bubbling on pieces so bad I resold them on eBay. At the time I wasn't aware of FW replacement policies.
Land Raider front door - A bubble in the rod where it went into the left hull, snapped when I tried to work with it.

I did get everything I wanted replaced no hassle, all I had to do was wait. When I spend $70 on a GW kit it's all nice and precise and the only thing I'm bitching about is the price. FW is nice, but seldom precise. Thank goodness I always have models to do in the mean time and that FW customer service is the bomb.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

1.) FW doesn't give a discounts to retailers. So if a retailer got you a kit, it would really be them doing you a favor acting as a middleman.

This. They want Forge World to be the premium of kits. That's why they don't discount it. That's the whole point.

Granted the FW kits i have had in the past have had problems, they havent been anywhere near as bad as finecast has been, just flash and a few mouldlines and the odd air bubble that has been easil;y remedied

I think its because nobody would move enough stock to get a wholesale price from Forge World, which is what you would need to make a profit.