Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

rigeld2 wrote:
http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/mmv/index.htm#catalog
I'm pretty sure the only thing Tamiya is missing is the gas masks.

Those are larger figures and they don't look like they're at the same level of detail. But since it might be hard to tell from a small picture and I'm just missing something, I'll leave it at this: doing DKoK in plastic is beyond GW's capabilities.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Although they would be more delicate kits than something like the chunky GW kits - that would allow them to keep their mystique.

And here's the problem with plastic: time is money, and replacing a simple to assemble resin kit with a delicate and complicated plastic one makes up for the (potential) cost decrease. The complicated plastic kit isn't going to appeal to a wide market, so you're still stuck selling to the same limited market of older dedicated hobbyists. And if you aren't going to expand your market and make up for the lost per-unit profits with hugely increased sales then what's the point of going to plastic?

Thanks for the assist Rigeld2 and Sean_OBrien.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
Slapping skulls on this crap doesn't make models hard to produce.

I really don't know how you managed to read the post you quoted and miss the entire point that it's about undercuts and minimum feature size, not how many skulls are on the model. Perhaps you should go back and read it again?

I didn't miss your point at all. My point was figuring out how to produce a 1 inch mini isn't doctoral science to beheld exclusively by GW/FW. I just simplified it by using metaphor. Of course GW/FW would be a leader at it, they've been doing it for 25 years. But where there's a will (interest) there's a way. Just because GW doesn't have competition from the big PacRim model companies doesn't mean that FW is onto something only they can pull off. Trust me if Death Korps of Kreig were a Saturday morning cartoon that was watched by 50 million kids Bandai would have FW's DKoK models in every Target, WalMart, and ToysRUs.


Edited to remove snarkiness.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
I just simplified it by using metaphor.

Then it's an awful metaphor. The issue has nothing to do with GW's love of skulls, an aesthetic objection, it has to do with technical problems related to making high-end 28mm figures in plastic. Even a company with better aesthetic taste than GW can't make plastic models without sacrificing detail.

Trust me if Death Korps of Kreig were a Saturday morning cartoon that was watched by 50 million kids Bandai would have FW's DKoK models in every Target, WalMart, and ToysRUs.

And they'd look like every other mass-produced plastic toy you find at walmart. That is, they'd be garbage.

 Peregrine wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/mmv/index.htm#catalog
I'm pretty sure the only thing Tamiya is missing is the gas masks.

Those are larger figures and they don't look like they're at the same level of detail. But since it might be hard to tell from a small picture and I'm just missing something, I'll leave it at this: doing DKoK in plastic is beyond GW's capabilities.

They really aren't larger...well, they are - but they are functionally the same size. The Tamiya figures are taller, but they are about the same girth as the Forgeworld/GW figures. Heads are almost the exact same size, and torsos are really close to the same size (1/48 scale figures are a bit longer in the torso). The big difference is that scale figures use real proportions for hands, legs and feet. The figures are well detailed, you have things like laces in the boots, buckles on the various packs and all the rest. Because the sizes are actually scale representations - many things are actually smaller and still detailed on them (hands on a Tamiya figure are smaller than a GW/FW figure but still have all the fingers and are often modeled to represent gestures).

You also have the recent Airfix 1:48 Operation Herrick figures. Although they have a bit more flash than some other companies - they are also well detailed and clean up nicely.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Although they would be more delicate kits than something like the chunky GW kits - that would allow them to keep their mystique.

And here's the problem with plastic: time is money, and replacing a simple to assemble resin kit with a delicate and complicated plastic one makes up for the (potential) cost decrease. The complicated plastic kit isn't going to appeal to a wide market, so you're still stuck selling to the same limited market of older dedicated hobbyists. And if you aren't going to expand your market and make up for the lost per-unit profits with hugely increased sales then what's the point of going to plastic?

Years ago - before I gave up on GW/FW - I actually had myself a pretty good start to a DKoK army. They were a mess to clean up with flashing all over the place and bubbles to fill. Not to mention all the warped barrels and other defects. Plastic on the other hand generally has minimal flash to clean up...no filling of voids and airbubbles...no warped weapons...gaps, if any, are minimal... What little extra time would be spent on assembling a 5 part figure versus a 3 part figure would be more than made up with the time saved cleaning things up and getting the resin ready to assemble.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
What little extra time would be spent on assembling a 5 part figure versus a 3 part figure would be more than made up with the time saved cleaning things up and getting the resin ready to assemble.

But you aren't going to get a 5-part figure without losing detail. Just the little air filter cylinder on the back of a grenadier (a part about the size of a 28mm head) is going to be at least four tiny parts. The coat is just plain impossible, you can't do it as a single piece without having undercuts and you can't do it in multiple pieces without having to somehow glue paper-thin plastic parts along their thin edge and create a smooth joint (something that isn't possible). The gun cable also isn't possible, it's a compound curve in too many directions to make with a plastic mold. Etc.

So, if you try to make plastic DKoK without sacrificing detail you're going to end up with each figure having dozens of tiny pieces that are a nightmare to assemble, and you're still going to have to make some compromises.

The thing is FW full know the costs, advantages and dissadvantages of casting in plastic. If they wanted to do a test run on one of there products they could get a mould made and build up some stock casting in GW machines in down time (I'm sure they are not running 24/7). For what ever reason they don't want to. I suspect it is because they want to run as they are, able to do what they want due to being so small.

Do you think we would see the number of diffrent tanks FW make if they had the cost investment GW have in a single mini? FW make more diffrent Tau lines that GW , the same gose for Orks (No idea about the rest of the lines, but I suspect it will be the same for IG, SM, Eldar etc plus the other items they make like planes and titans). Resin lets them be more flexable with production and have a lower cost per mini with the numbers they make.

They probably don't sell wholesale because of the additional pressure this would put on them to hold stock, ship quickly (Do you think shops would put up with there dilivery times and habits of shipping?)

Steve steveson wrote:
The thing is FW full know the costs, advantages and dissadvantages of casting in plastic. If they wanted to do a test run on one of there products they could get a mould made and build up some stock casting in GW machines in down time (I'm sure they are not running 24/7). For what ever reason they don't want to. I suspect it is because they want to run as they are, able to do what they want due to being so small.

How do you know that they haven't done that, and just found it to be an unacceptable solution? Why assume that they have some strange reason for not even making a test run when the more likely explanation is that it just doesn't work?

 Glorioski wrote:

Tons of companies do this. The higher volume you produce the more overheads you gather and the higher your goods cost to produce. Meaning they would make less per model than they currently do which may not be attractive. It's called variable cost.

Yes, well, economies of scale work the other way - lowering cost per unit. I think what you meant to say is that ramping up production typically ramps up the fixed operating costs and therefore the volume that needs to be sold to break even.

What the casting guy is saying is that the resin casting process doesn't lend itself to volume production, and therefore lacks economy of scale. Of course, this does not mean that there is a lack of opportunity to sell more product. No matter what it costs me to produce a unit of sale, I will make more money if I sell more units at a profit - any profit. Somehow I doubt that the margins on FW products are too low to produce a profit!

My guess is that their marketing gurus don't think there is any reason to increase the volume of production. Everyone that really wants one gets one eventually. Or maybe they don't believe they can increase production due to a lack of skilled resources. Or maybe there is some other explanation that isn't readily apparent without a better understanding of their operation. I would say that any explanation that concludes that a publicly traded company is not pursuing a logical venture that would increase the bottom line for illogical reasons assumes that everyone that works at the company is a moron, that all of the institutional investors are morons, the BOD are all morons, etc. I bet they know their business better than we do.

I once had a decent chat with Tony Cottrell and Ewan when Forgeworld was 3 blokes in pokey office and a converted stationary cupboard as a warehouse i actually saw the very first baneblade from the moulds when the guy that ran the company that cast them for them brought them in. Essentially this,

Forgeworld is run as a seperate brand to make 'exclusive' and 'special' products. For this reason the prices are set high regardless of how much they cost to make.
Forgeworld products are kept exclusive to preserve this feeling and protect products against discounting.
Forgeworld make products that are classed as not viable for mass production, if a model proves valid for mass production it gets made, e.g. baneblade but under the Games Workshop/Warhammer 40k brand.

Wayland Games stock some forgeworld kits at a slightly higher 'direct only' price. It's usually just things like dreadnought bodies and rhino / raider doors.

I'm wondering how popular they are...

Also, don't forget about the exchange rate. A few years ago, it was around 1.8 to the dollar. Now it's 1.5. If a retailer bought a supply of FW items, he'd have to sell it for at least as much as he bought it. With the exchange rate shifting, a retailer in the US would be unable to compete without selling at a loss.

 Compel wrote:
I'm wondering how popular they are...

I can't imagine they're very popular given that they would be more expensive than buying from FW directly.