Pissing match brewing over Texas scool teaching of Islam and other things Middle Eastern

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Bromsy**

I guess I'd need to see more specifics on the curriculum. I could see something along the lines of "Consider that there are people in the world who believe the 9-11 hijackers to be freedom fighters." in a totally different light than "Don't call the 9-11 hijackers terrorists, call them Freedom Fighters." That just seems like a poor choice for someone writing out a curriculum.

I mean, we aren't looking at some long past events, you ought to take some care since the odds of getting someone in one of these classes who had a family member killed by these so called freedom fighters isn't exactly a vanishingly small proposition.

**sebster**

Captain Avatar wrote:
Turns out that spending a great time on the internet leads to some individuals having the mistaken belief that they are an authority on other countries laws and pretty much everything in general. See how that works.

I'm by no means an authority. But I know Christian martyrdom when I see it.

Actually, the ADL and ACLU describe teaching religion in a public classroom as only theoretically "possible" if done in a secular manner. The reality is that lawsuits, injunctions and court decisions claiming that the schools are not being secular enough pretty much stops such programs in their first year or two.

Now it is true that there is currently a movement for christians to stand up for their rights and about 350 public schools have started teaching the bible. Other schools have started teaching a mix of religious texts.

Note, the operative word is "started". The answer as to why they stopped was various court rulings and legal costs. I expect this sudden resurgence of religious education to be met with the usual wave of lawsuits.

It's 'start' because a completely secular teaching of the Bible is almost completely pointless. It's a majority Christian nation, most anyone will get a solid understanding of the book just from watching TV. And if greater knoweldge is desired there's no shortage of places that will teach the bible outside of school, for those who are interested. And then there's the problem that 'secular' teachings tend to get into all that biblical history stuff that literalists really, really hate, making the whole thing a political nightmare.

But by all means, fail to completely notice that 350 schools teaching this stuff without legal action completely contradicts your original statement. Please, just let that sail right past your head.

The only burden is your innaccurate understanding of our systems. Mayhap, someday you will come and live here for a while to gain first hand experience. Cheers

Just this morning I was listening to a very strange collection of Christians in my own country, who were desperate to point out all the ways they are hard done by, because they only get to do the same stuff that everyone else does, and no longer have any special privileges. I don't have to go anywhere to know exactly what's going on.

**Ratbarf**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I'd say calling terrorists "freedom fighters" is the wrong tack. Teach the kids that these feth heads are scum, and have as much to do with Islam as modern Christianity does with the Crusades. (in most quarters...)

You want to show Islam in a positive light? Show the positive parts of Islam, don't try to repaint the gak bits gold.

For example young muslim bamf Malala Yousafzai.

Spoiler:

You should probably watch the video in the link I posted. It is not hard to see jihadis as freedom fighters when you look at it from their point of view, in fact it's somewhat difficult not too, especially when you consider that another Middle Eastern muslim pushing for Westernization could be seen in a similar light to how nazi cooperators were seen by the various european resistances. They seem to be acting along similar lines.

**Frazzled**

Captain Avatar wrote:
I just know that the usual suspects are gonna show up and use selective reading to demonize the parents. They will be like, "Look, Texans, They Are So Wrong Because They are Texans!!!".

Seriously, The main complaint that I read was the lack of balance in the curriculum and the politicizing of the educational system. Both of which I can agree with as being either a problem or at least inappropriate..

You see, I agree with a program designed to give a broader perspective but, it has to be implemented in a balanced, fair and careful manner that is in the best mental, emotional and physical interest of the students.

For instance,
Teaching about Islam is not a problem, but teaching about Islam while making it illegal to teach about Christianity ,or any other religion for that matter, is a major problem. There is a difference between encouraging an equal look from all sides perspective and having the course et to discriminate against one faction simply because it is more prevalent.

Also,
Encouraging students to understand that what one group views as a terrorist is often freedom fighters to another group is good.
Encouraging them to do such without properly warning the students that such statements are better saved for the class as opposed to the school hallways is just asking for a tragedy.

So yeah, at face value, the curriculum needs balancing rather than the establishment you know=bad / subvert the dominant paradigm method that it seems was employed.

Oh wow, the Captain said everything I was thinking in my head, but in a more clear and less concise manner. And without the voices.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:
@Captain,

In the rebutal they point out that they wrre talking about Islam in relation to Christianity and Judaism.

But are they discussing Christianity and Judaism, Hindusim, and Budhism as well? Are they portraying all in an equally favorable light?

**d-usa**

Frazzled wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:
-snip-

Oh wow, the Captain said everything I was thinking in my head, but in a more clear and less concise manner. And without the voices.

Without the voices there is no quorum, so his argument has no merrit.

**Frazzled**

dogma wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:

Oh, you who live so far away know so much more than those who have to deal with the reality of our public schools being under constant law suits for even allowing students to have prayers on campus.

Are Christian prayers specifically banned anywhere in the US?

EDIT: Again the Cpatain said it better than I.

**Kilkrazy**

There is a difference between being taught about a religion and being required to perform the rites of a religion.

**Skinnereal**

What they should teach in schools is the difference between 'true' religious teachings, and the teachings of radical clerics and preachers.
AFAIK, the 911 attacks were not done in the name of Islam, and you'd ( I hope) be hard pressed to find a follower of Islam who condones it.
Just like a true Christian should tell you that they regret the actions of those involved in the Crusades and witch-hunts of centuries ago.

If students aren't told the difference, and why it is not correct, there's little point in teaching them about religions at all.

**Ratbarf**

What do you mean by follower of Islam or Christianity? Do you mean what you think is proper adherence? Or simply someone who is a self proclaimed adherent? You also get the problem of multiple interpretations across different schools of faith which can lead to different conclusions about the acceptability of violence. There are some passages in both the Quoran and the Bible (Including New Testament) that aren't exactly all about love and rainbows.

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:

Oh, you who live so far away know so much more than those who have to deal with the reality of our public schools being under constant law suits for even allowing students to have prayers on campus.

Are Christian prayers specifically banned anywhere in the US?

EDIT: Again the Cpatain said it better than I.

Are Christian prayers specifically banned anywhere in the US?

I mean, this isn't complicated. If public schools are under "assault" due to praying students, then don't pray at school. Pray at Church, home, or whatever religious structure you favor*.

Additionally, the argument that because a person doesn't live in place X they cannot understand place X is lazy.

*But lets be honest, its probably Church.

**Frazzled**

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:

Oh, you who live so far away know so much more than those who have to deal with the reality of our public schools being under constant law suits for even allowing students to have prayers on campus.

Are Christian prayers specifically banned anywhere in the US?

EDIT: Again the Cpatain said it better than I.

Are Christian prayers specifically banned anywhere in the US?

Prayers have been banned yes.

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:

Prayers have been banned yes.

Christian prayers?

**Frazzled**

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Prayers have been banned yes.

Christian prayers?

No one else was praying. Whats your point exactly?

**Relapse**

Frazzled wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:
I just know that the usual suspects are gonna show up and use selective reading to demonize the parents. They will be like, "Look, Texans, They Are So Wrong Because They are Texans!!!".

Seriously, The main complaint that I read was the lack of balance in the curriculum and the politicizing of the educational system. Both of which I can agree with as being either a problem or at least inappropriate..

You see, I agree with a program designed to give a broader perspective but, it has to be implemented in a balanced, fair and careful manner that is in the best mental, emotional and physical interest of the students.

For instance,
Teaching about Islam is not a problem, but teaching about Islam while making it illegal to teach about Christianity ,or any other religion for that matter, is a major problem. There is a difference between encouraging an equal look from all sides perspective and having the course et to discriminate against one faction simply because it is more prevalent.

Also,
Encouraging students to understand that what one group views as a terrorist is often freedom fighters to another group is good.
Encouraging them to do such without properly warning the students that such statements are better saved for the class as opposed to the school hallways is just asking for a tragedy.

So yeah, at face value, the curriculum needs balancing rather than the establishment you know=bad / subvert the dominant paradigm method that it seems was employed.

Oh wow, the Captain said everything I was thinking in my head, but in a more clear and less concise manner. And without the voices.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:
@Captain,

In the rebutal they point out that they wrre talking about Islam in relation to Christianity and Judaism.

But are they discussing Christianity and Judaism, Hindusim, and Budhism as well? Are they portraying all in an equally favorable light?

I don't know if they are portraying in a favorable light or just presenting a point of view, but the are presenting the beliefs of the other religions, also.

From the rebuttal:

(B) describe major world religions, including animism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and Sikhism, and their spatial distribution;

I think if it was anything reallynoutragious going on, the parents would be all over the school like ugly on an ape. Texas people don't put up with a lot of crap, in my experience.

**Frazzled**

Evidently the parents are all over the school like ugly on an ape.

Now if they are discussing everything in the same manner then I am ok. If they aren't that violates the First Amendment and this should happen:

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:

No one else was praying. Whats your point exactly?

No act of prayer has ever been banned, in the US, because it was Christian; at least to my knowledge. Prayer has been banned, but prayer is not exclusively Christian.

To the extent that bans on prayer are existential they exist in order to eliminate religious expression from a scholastic environment. Some Christians take this as a mark of hostility because they are accustomed to expressing their religion from a position of power; especially where children are involved.

**Skinnereal**

Ratbarf wrote:
What do you mean by follower of Islam or Christianity? Do you mean what you think is proper adherence? Or simply someone who is a self proclaimed adherent? You also get the problem of multiple interpretations across different schools of faith which can lead to different conclusions about the acceptability of violence. There are some passages in both the Quoran and the Bible (Including New Testament) that aren't exactly all about love and rainbows.

I meant the mainstream sypes, like Catholicism, etc.
Teach the more 'juicy' bits of the books, by all means, and explain the various interpretations of the meanings of them.
But, also point out that some interpretations are considered fundamentalist, and widely considered incorrect.
Knowing where most people draw the line would make a big difference when listening to the news.

**Kilkrazy**

It isn't necessary to teach any specific interpretation of any religion in a class on world religions. It would be wrong not to teach pupils that there are various sects in each religion which have different interpretations of their sacred writings.

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It isn't necessary to teach any specific interpretation of any religion in a class on world religions. It would be wrong not to teach pupils that there are various sects in each religion which have different interpretations of their sacred writings.

Even better idea. Keep religion out of public schools. ALL religions (except for the coming of the Great Wiener of course).

Had bank meeting in San Antonio last Friday, so just drove there and went home after. Walked the other other dogs then took TBone around the block. He took so long that the elementary school let out 2/3 of the way through. For about ten minutes he had an entire herd of children petting him. One little girl gave him some of the snack she was eating. TBone was pleased.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

No one else was praying. Whats your point exactly?

No act of prayer has ever been banned, in the US, because it was Christian; at least to my knowledge. Prayer has been banned, but prayer is not exclusively Christian.

To the extent that bans on prayer are existential they exist in order to eliminate religious expression from a scholastic environment. Some Christians take this as a mark of hostility because they are accustomed to expressing their religion from a position of power; especially where children are involved.

Ther have been multiple instances where all things Christian have been banned, but we have Islam week or some other nonsense. Thats a problem. All or nothing.

**Ratbarf**

Frazzled wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
It isn't necessary to teach any specific interpretation of any religion in a class on world religions. It would be wrong not to teach pupils that there are various sects in each religion which have different interpretations of their sacred writings.

Even better idea. Keep religion out of public schools. ALL religions (except for the coming of the Great Wiener of course).

I think that would be doing a disservice to everyone, it's a school, you should be able to get an education about the history of various world religions.

Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

No one else was praying. Whats your point exactly?

No act of prayer has ever been banned, in the US, because it was Christian; at least to my knowledge. Prayer has been banned, but prayer is not exclusively Christian.

To the extent that bans on prayer are existential they exist in order to eliminate religious expression from a scholastic environment. Some Christians take this as a mark of hostility because they are accustomed to expressing their religion from a position of power; especially where children are involved.

Ther have been multiple instances where all things Christian have been banned, but we have Islam week or some other nonsense. Thats a problem. All or nothing.

**ExNoctemNacimur**

The really worry things are the comments on the Fox News article.

**SilverMK2**

Comparative religion is a reasonable subject to teach in schools, certainly at the lower end of school until you need to make room for important subjects like science and so on. Just give an overview of the basic beliefs of different religions, how they work, how they relate, etc.

**ExNoctemNacimur**

Most definitely. Major religions should be taught, but not forced down people's throats. I'd even suggest teaching some more obscure religions such as Wicca, to round the kid's view of world religions. Hell, even Atheism should be taught. Let the kid choose his path from there.

**Frazzled**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Comparative religion is a reasonable subject to teach in schools, certainly at the lower end of school until you need to make room for important subjects like science and so on. Just give an overview of the basic beliefs of different religions, how they work, how they relate, etc.

And I would be ok with that. But in today's PC loving culture thats not going to happen. Better to follow the French model.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Most definitely. Major religions should be taught, but not forced down people's throats. I'd even suggest teaching some more obscure religions such as Wicca, to round the kid's view of world religions. Hell, even Atheism should be taught. Let the kid choose his path from there.

I coul.d make a very nice argument that in itself violates the First Amendment, if its a required course.

**SilverMK2**

Frazzled wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:
Comparative religion is a reasonable subject to teach in schools, certainly at the lower end of school until you need to make room for important subjects like science and so on. Just give an overview of the basic beliefs of different religions, how they work, how they relate, etc.

And I would be ok with that. But in today's PC loving culture thats not going to happen.

That is how it works in the UK from what I remember of RE (not that I really paid attention to it when I had to take it).

**ExNoctemNacimur**

Frazzled wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Most definitely. Major religions should be taught, but not forced down people's throats. I'd even suggest teaching some more obscure religions such as Wicca, to round the kid's view of world religions. Hell, even Atheism should be taught. Let the kid choose his path from there.

I coul.d make a very nice argument that in itself violates the First Amendment, if its a required course.

I'm not aware of US law, but it does seem rather stupid!

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:

Ther have been multiple instances where all things Christian have been banned, but we have Islam week or some other nonsense. Thats a problem. All or nothing.

If there is a policy by which things are explicitly banned due to their Christian nature (eg: All things Christian are banned.), I would appreciate it being brought to my attention.

Ratbarf wrote:

You mean Ramadan where the Muslims get a room to themselves during lunch so they don't have to watch us eat while they observe their hungriness? Also, why shouldn't people be allowed to pray in school? They're allowed to talk about politics and political parties.

Students can pray in school. What students cannot do, and should not be allowed to do, is make a spectacle of their prayer.

**hotsauceman1**

Prayer is allowed in schools, School sponsored and required prayer is illegal.

**Frazzled**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Prayer is allowed in schools, School sponsored and required prayer is illegal.

Allowed? Hell they are REQUIRED before math tests. I know. I KNOW!!!

**whembly**

Frazzled wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Prayer is allowed in schools, School sponsored and required prayer is illegal.

Allowed? Hell they are REQUIRED before math tests. I know. I KNOW!!!

Dontcha mean the blood offerings for the Blood God?