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If it is phase specific you cant use it. Gunslinger, MCs firing two weapons, PSAs. All have rules limiting their special abilities to the shooting phase so those rules cant be used for overwatch.

Happyjew read the special rule for MCs firing two weapons. The rule states can fire 2 in the shooting phase, not a universal fire 2 weapons. You have to pick the 1 you want to use. Though i wish i could fire that many weapons for overwatch.

Backlash wrote:
If it is phase specific you cant use it.

Rulebook, page 12 wrote:
During the shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

This is the section that defines that ranged weapons can be used to shoot with. You're saying that this does not appy to overwatch. So, which weapons can be used in Overwatch?

Again overwatch gives you permission to use the shooting rules. with exceptions "pinning, Morale checks, AND phase limitations"

Yes, that's the problem. The rule that tells us that ranged weapons can be used for shooting applies specifically to the shooting phase, as per the section I just quoted.

So, again, how do you determine which weapons can be used in Overwatch, when the rule that defines it for normal shooting is phase specific?

Pg 51 under more than 1 weapon. "If a model has more than 1 shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same shooting phase."

This can be trumped by special rules of course. "specific over general" This is your baseline for shooting. or "Normal shooting"

As the special rules "GS, MC two weapons, and PSA" have rules limiting them to shooting phase and or your turn they cannot be used for overwatch.

None of what you just posted changes the fact that the allowance to fire a ranged weapon is phase specific.

No it is not. Where does it say that you cannot fire weapons outside of the shooting phase? It doesn't. You are granted permission to use the rules for shooting outside of the shooting phase by several abilities. Overwatch and interceptor being the most notable. The rule book does not restrict shooting to a single phase. You are assuming that because the rules for shooting are listed under shooting phase that there is some non existant rule that disallows it.

Backlash wrote:
No it is not. Where does it say that you cannot fire weapons outside of the shooting phase? It doesn't. You are granted permission to use the rules for shooting outside of the shooting phase by several abilities. Overwatch and interceptor being the most notable. The rule book does not restrict shooting to a single phase. You are assuming that because the rules for shooting are listed under shooting phase that there is some non existant rule that disallows it.

Overwatch is resolved exactly like a normal shooting attack albeit as Snap Shots. Agreed?
The very first step in resolving a shooting attack is to nominate a unit to shoot. Agreed?
The rules for Nominating Unit to Shoot specify during the Shooting phase. Agreed?

Therefore either shooting attacks can only be resolved during the Shooting phase, or anything that affects shooting (such as MCs firing 2 weapons) can applies to Overwatch.

Backlash wrote:
No it is not. Where does it say that you cannot fire weapons outside of the shooting phase?

You have that backwards. You need a rule that says that you can fire a weapon in order to be able to do so.

There is such a rule (I quoted it) but it applies specifically to the Shooting Phase.

You are assuming that because the rules for shooting are listed under shooting phase that there is some non existant rule that disallows it.

No, I'm assuming that because the rule says that you can fire a weapon if you have one in the Shooting Phase, then your argument that anything that is specific to the Shooting Phase doesn't work at any other time would disallow any model from ever using Overwatch.

My argument is that Overwatch says to use the shooting rules (just in a different phase) and so you apply the shooting rules in their entirety. Yes, Gunslinger is specific to the Shooting Phase... but so is every other type of shot, so if you assume that Overwatch is supposed to actually work, Gunslinger must also apply.

If thats the case you are ignoring restrictions of the abilities. Overwatch does not make it the shooting phase. Interceptor does not make it the shooting phase. These abilities allow you to shoot in a different phase. Not all shooting abilities are denied during overwatch, but ones but ones that specify the shooting phase are. That's like me saying i get rages effect durring all combat because i choose to ignore the bit about the turn i charge into combat.

From my limited understanding of the rules I've read; I think that unless it specifies that the weapon cannot be fired in Overwatch or cannot fire Snap Shots (Plasma Cannon) then it should follow the normal shooting rules.

I can't find anything that says you can only fire one pistol in Overwatch. All I can find is that you resolve Overwatch attacks as normal shooting, making Snap Shots and ignoring certain rules like pinning etc.

Since in the normal shooting phase Gunslinger allows you to fire both pistols then I'd say it's fine to fire them in Overwatch as Snap Shots too.

Backlash wrote:
If thats the case you are ignoring restrictions of the abilities. Overwatch does not make it the shooting phase.

And so models can not fire Overwatch, as the allowance to fire a weapon if you have one only applies in the Shooting Phase.

Not all shooting abilities are denied during overwatch, but ones but ones that specify the shooting phase are.

Which is all shooting.

That's like me saying i get rages effect durring all combat because i choose to ignore the bit about the turn i charge into combat.

No, it's really not.

Backlash, would you please address the following? I posted it earlier but it seems to have been missed.

Overwatch is resolved exactly like a normal shooting attack albeit as Snap Shots. Agreed?
The very first step in resolving a shooting attack is to nominate a unit to shoot. Agreed?
The rules for Nominating Unit to Shoot specify during the Shooting phase. Agreed?

Therefore either shooting attacks can only be resolved during the Shooting phase, or anything that affects shooting (such as MCs firing 2 weapons) can applies to Overwatch.

 Happyjew wrote:
Backlash, would you please address the following? I posted it earlier but it seems to have been missed.

Overwatch is resolved exactly like a normal shooting attack albeit as Snap Shots. Agreed?
The very first step in resolving a shooting attack is to nominate a unit to shoot. Agreed?
The rules for Nominating Unit to Shoot specify during the Shooting phase. Agreed?

Therefore either shooting attacks can only be resolved during the Shooting phase, or anything that affects shooting (such as MCs firing 2 weapons) can applies to Overwatch.

This appears to be incorrect, what allows you to make shooting attacks during the shooting phase is the shooting sequence, they only use the wording shooting attacks in the way off allowing you to do them.
The overwatch is a separate rule allowing an overwatch attack resolved like a normal shooting attack, it even mentions that its done during the enemy's assault phase.

Since the pistol special rule states during the shooting phase there is nothing that enables it use that rule it would seem.

What I couldn't work out was what exactly a shooting attack is, they seem to allow you to do a shooting attack but seem to assume you know what it was, if it was the shooting sequence then why would it ask you to nominate who to make shooting attacks.

Overwatch seeming to start at step 2 of the shooting sequence as you have already stated who is shooting at who :0

(How much of an actual rule can we put down in dakka? I'm starting on page 20, going to page 12 then page 52 and 48 for reference )

Apple Fox, I already quoted the specific rule that ties shooting to the Shooting Phase.

Right. You only ever have permission to shoot normal shots in the shooting phase. Firing any kind of shooting weapon has exactly the same kind of phase-specific language that Gunslinger does.

Either no one can ever Overwatch, or firing Overwatch uses all the normal shooting rules, including Gunslinger. There is no basis on which to disciminate between them, because normal shooting and Gunslinger both use the same language about being done in the Shooting phase.

i ve got a sm captain wich i use as a tank hunter with duel plasma pistols melta bombs and a jump pack i annoy my freind by droping in behind his vindicator and blowing it up on turn 1

Overwatch allows you to make shooting attack in the enermy assault phase, it does not make it the shooting phase nor does it say to use the shooting sequence.

If only says to use the normal rules for making the attck itself, are you in range, can you see the target, are they getting cover saves.

The pistols rules mention that you can fire both in the shooting phase, if thet was not the intent why not simply state you can both.(MC having similar wording)
Unless a FAQ has come around clearing up the overwatch wording, I don't think you can make such jumps and say its the rule of the book.

Apple fox wrote:
Overwatch allows you to make shooting attack in the enermy assault phase, it does not make it the shooting phase nor does it say to use the shooting sequence.

If you don't use the shooting sequence, how do you resolve the shot?

Overwatch says to use the normal rules for shooting. The normal rules for shooting allow models to fire a ranged weapon in the Shooting Phase if they have one.

If only says to use the normal rules for making the attck itself, are you in range, can you see the target, are they getting cover saves.

It says to follow the normal shooting rules. You're adding a qualifier to it that doesn't exist.

We are both adding to it, you are assuming that since you are using the shooting sequence that you are in the shooting phase since the shooting sequence says that's when you use it.
But in overwatch it says its happening in the enemy assault phase.

That is why I asked what a shooting attack itself is, as it is far closer to breaking overwatch than allowing pistols to shoot both. Unless it can be both the assault phase and the shooting phase at the same time ?

I'm also not quoting full rules since I haven't got a feel for how much of a rule we can put up.

Also in overwatch, how do you complete the nominate unit when the overwatch has already passed/forced though this step?

This was not a good post :p not great at English and didn't take 30 mins to post befor coffee :0

Apple fox wrote:
We are both adding to it, you are assuming that since you are using the shooting sequence that you are in the shooting phase since the shooting sequence says that's when you use it.

I'm assuming nothing of the sort.

What I'm assuming is that when a rule says to apply the normal rules for shooting to a different phase, that means that the normal rules for shooting, which normally apply to the shooting phase, now apply to the different phase.

Also in overwatch, how do you complete the nominate unit when the overwatch has already passed/forced though this step?

The same way you would in the shooting phase if you only have one unit left on the table. You choose a unit with which to shoot from amongst the units that are available to shoot with at that time... Which on the case of overwatch, means one unit: the one being assaulted.

I think this is 2 different things, just since you are using the normal shooting rules doesn't mean it is the shooting phase so the pistols rule shouldn't apply. (This was what I was trying to argue in my bad way :p )

And does the overwatch actuly work that way? I actuly got a little mixed up, and do agree with this part :p

Mix up where we where both coming from.

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack" BrB, page 21, Resolve Overwatch (emphasis mine)

This debate come down to the question, is gunslinger a normal shooting rule?

So the first thing needed here is to determine what the 'normal shooting' rules are. The most obvious answer is the basic shooting rules found in the Shooting Phase section. These rules do, in one section refer, you to the basic weapon profiles:

"Some guns are so heavy that they can only be used effectively if their firer halts completely to brace himself or set up his weapon on the ground. This is explained in more detail in the Weapons section (pg" 50)" page 13, BrB, Moving and Shooting

This seems to indicate the basic weapon profiles and any specific rules regarding their type are included in the 'normal shooting rules' which include pistols(Gunslinger), rapid fire, etc. After all, if the basic weapon profiles and abilities were not included in the 'normal shooting' rules you would never be able to make a normal shooting attack save for with the weapons that have their profiles listed as examples in the shooting section. That would be ridiculous IMO so it only makes sense that the 'normal shooting rules' are the combination of The Shooting Phase rules as well as the Weapon specific rules in the later section. As Gunslinger is found in the weapons section under pistols I feel it can only be viewed as part of the 'normal' rules for firing them and as such, can be fired from overwatch.

After all, overwatch does create an exception for 'normal shooting attacks' to be done during the enemies assault phase and Gunslinger is as normal as Rapid Fire and Assault 2.

That's a good anser, but it also states under gunslinger that it can fire both in the shooting phase, does the rule come into effect such as other weapon rules do? Even if the rule comes into effect, does it do anything during overwatch?

This coming from that it says shooting phase in the gunslinger rule. At what point does it become a normal rule, if it only does in the shooting phase, then I still think the only conclusion would have to be that it wouldn't work in the overwatch.

Apple fox wrote:
That's a good anser, but it also states under gunslinger that it can fire both in the shooting phase, does the rule come into effect such as other weapon rules do? Even if the rule comes into effect, does it do anything during overwatch?

Since it is a 'normal shooting attack' it can be used per the overwatch rules witch, handily, also create the exception allowing these 'normal shooting attacks' that usually can only occur during the shooting phase to happen in the enemy assault phase.

 Abandon wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
That's a good anser, but it also states under gunslinger that it can fire both in the shooting phase, does the rule come into effect such as other weapon rules do? Even if the rule comes into effect, does it do anything during overwatch?

Since it is a 'normal shooting attack' it can be used per the overwatch rules witch, handily, also create the exception allowing these 'normal shooting attacks' that usually can only occur during the shooting phase to happen in the enemy assault phase.

That's a real possibility, but I still think since the rule itself states shooting phase that I could not agree with that as stands.
But it doesn't sound like current rules would define it. (Even if the rule is in play, doesn't mean it's doing anything at the current time)
In the end it's how it ruled by GW next FAQ maybe :p
Or even changing the gunslinger rule itself a bit

So, in essence, yes it comes up but the exception for overwatch is in effect negating every instance of 'during the shooting phase" found in both the Gunslinger rule and the the Shooting Phase Rules for these 'normal shooting attacks'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase)"

Well in a normal shooting attack with two pistols, you get two shots. This line tells you to resolve it that way during the enemies assault phase.

Apple fox wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
That's a good anser, but it also states under gunslinger that it can fire both in the shooting phase, does the rule come into effect such as other weapon rules do? Even if the rule comes into effect, does it do anything during overwatch?

Since it is a 'normal shooting attack' it can be used per the overwatch rules witch, handily, also create the exception allowing these 'normal shooting attacks' that usually can only occur during the shooting phase to happen in the enemy assault phase.

That's a real possibility, but I still think since the rule itself states shooting phase that I could not agree with that as stands.
But it doesn't sound like current rules would define it.
In the end it's how it ruled by GW next FAQ maybe :p
Or even changing the gunslinger rule itself a bit

No FAQ is needed. The rule states "normal shooting attack." Normally a Gunslinger can fire two pistols, normally a MC can fire two weapons, etc.. in the shooting phase. To change that allowance for Overwatch would mean that you would need to change the wording on Overwatch to not say "normal shooting attacks."

Apple fox wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
That's a good anser, but it also states under
In the end it's how it ruled by GW next FAQ maybe :p
Or even changing the gunslinger rule itself a bit

The double enforcement of the 'during the shooting phase' rule in both gunslinger and the shooting phase sections can leave one to wonder about RAI but until they clear it up we only have RAW.

Apple fox wrote:
I think this is 2 different things, just since you are using the normal shooting rules doesn't mean it is the shooting phase so the pistols rule shouldn't apply. (This was what I was trying to argue in my bad way :p )

And we've already been over that. It's not the shooting phase. The rules for the shooting phase are applied to the assault phase, because that's what Overwatch says to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:
That's a real possibility, but I still think since the rule itself states shooting phase that I could not agree with that as stands.

Go have another look at the rule I quoted from page 12. If the fact that the rule itself refers to the Shooting Phase means it can't be used, then no ranged weapon can be used in Overwatch.