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Disclaimer: this is my assumption based on the entry in DA Codex for Command Squad and the Faq about Vet Squads:

I guess that the wording could be interpreted this way:
"One Veteran may be upgraded to Standar Bearer by taking a banner from the following list"

(The standard-apothecary/champion medley is definitely too farfetched... but interesting for a "gallery model")

On the right column, I'd reword like this:
"Any model in the squad may replace [...]" for bolt pistol and chainsword entries
and
"Any model in the squad may take" for melta bombs and the storm shield"

IMO that works... and seems quite logical, too.

 Byte wrote:

andystache wrote:

 Byte wrote:

andystache wrote:
This one's actually pretty simple - If they're a Veteran they can take any option available to the Veterans, if their stat line says something other than Veteran they can't.

Apoth - all options still a Vet
Banner Bearer - all options still a Vet
Company Champion - no options has separate stat line

So why is the Apoth not a character, therefor loose his vet status for purposes of choosing wargear. They have their own stat line. Banner bearer, that was random, they were not in question.

Oops at work and working from memory. The Banner Bearer was in there because that was part of OP's question. Whether they can be upgraded depending on the entry. If it says "a Vet may replace" then I read Champ/Apoth would not be able to use that option as they are no longer "Vets". Part of the FAQ update to the Vet Squad was to change the wording from "a Vet" to any model" which covers the Sgt and the squad, not just the squad

I agree on all your points. However, the discussion is Command Squad, not Company Vet Squad that the FAQ covers.

Apologizes if I caused confusion, I bring up the Vet Squad simple because I know that unit's entry contains the phrase "any model may..." as I am at work and sans codex I cannot guarantee the Command Squad says "any model may..." or if it specifies "a Veteran may". Another example from the codex of specific wording is "a Terminator may..." regarding the heavy weapons choices preventing the Sgt from taking the heavy weapon (I do so want a Precise Assault Cannon). I am almost positive the Champion says "replace all wargear with" which would not allow him to take anything other than the sword, pistol, and combat shield. The Apothecary, having his own statline, may be disallowed from taking upgrades because he ceases to be a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary. If someone could confirm wording in that army list entry that would be grand!

andystache wrote:

 Byte wrote:

andystache wrote:

 Byte wrote:

andystache wrote:
This one's actually pretty simple - If they're a Veteran they can take any option available to the Veterans, if their stat line says something other than Veteran they can't.

Apoth - all options still a Vet
Banner Bearer - all options still a Vet
Company Champion - no options has separate stat line

So why is the Apoth not a character, therefor loose his vet status for purposes of choosing wargear. They have their own stat line. Banner bearer, that was random, they were not in question.

Oops at work and working from memory. The Banner Bearer was in there because that was part of OP's question. Whether they can be upgraded depending on the entry. If it says "a Vet may replace" then I read Champ/Apoth would not be able to use that option as they are no longer "Vets". Part of the FAQ update to the Vet Squad was to change the wording from "a Vet" to any model" which covers the Sgt and the squad, not just the squad

I agree on all your points. However, the discussion is Command Squad, not Company Vet Squad that the FAQ covers.

Apologizes if I caused confusion, I bring up the Vet Squad simple because I know that unit's entry contains the phrase "any model may..." as I am at work and sans codex I cannot guarantee the Command Squad says "any model may..." or if it specifies "a Veteran may". Another example from the codex of specific wording is "a Terminator may..." regarding the heavy weapons choices preventing the Sgt from taking the heavy weapon (I do so want a Precise Assault Cannon). I am almost positive the Champion says "replace all wargear with" which would not allow him to take anything other than the sword, pistol, and combat shield. The Apothecary, having his own statline, may be disallowed from taking upgrades because he ceases to be a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary. If someone could confirm wording in that army list entry that would be grand!

Your memory is dead on. It says, a Veteran may...(pretty sure I mentioned this point earlier in the thread). However, others are trying to assume Apoth and Champs are still "Vets" for purposes of picking wargear. Its kinda silly really.

 Byte wrote:

andystache wrote:

 Byte wrote:

andystache wrote:

 Byte wrote:

andystache wrote:
This one's actually pretty simple - If they're a Veteran they can take any option available to the Veterans, if their stat line says something other than Veteran they can't.

Apoth - all options still a Vet
Banner Bearer - all options still a Vet
Company Champion - no options has separate stat line

So why is the Apoth not a character, therefor loose his vet status for purposes of choosing wargear. They have their own stat line. Banner bearer, that was random, they were not in question.

Oops at work and working from memory. The Banner Bearer was in there because that was part of OP's question. Whether they can be upgraded depending on the entry. If it says "a Vet may replace" then I read Champ/Apoth would not be able to use that option as they are no longer "Vets". Part of the FAQ update to the Vet Squad was to change the wording from "a Vet" to any model" which covers the Sgt and the squad, not just the squad

I agree on all your points. However, the discussion is Command Squad, not Company Vet Squad that the FAQ covers.

Apologizes if I caused confusion, I bring up the Vet Squad simple because I know that unit's entry contains the phrase "any model may..." as I am at work and sans codex I cannot guarantee the Command Squad says "any model may..." or if it specifies "a Veteran may". Another example from the codex of specific wording is "a Terminator may..." regarding the heavy weapons choices preventing the Sgt from taking the heavy weapon (I do so want a Precise Assault Cannon). I am almost positive the Champion says "replace all wargear with" which would not allow him to take anything other than the sword, pistol, and combat shield. The Apothecary, having his own statline, may be disallowed from taking upgrades because he ceases to be a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary. If someone could confirm wording in that army list entry that would be grand!

Your memory is dead on. It says, a Veteran may...(pretty sure I mentioned this point earlier in the thread). However, others are trying to assume Apoth and Champs are still "Vets" for purposes of picking wargear. Its kinda silly really.

Thanks for confirming that. I think we're arguing the same stance from both angles. I started quoting you because you found the hole in my memory (Apoth) and then I think we both started laying things out explicitly for those who disagree. Again thanks for proper codex reference!

Where do i find the prices for holy standards in the codex? My german version states that you can swap one of the listed banners for a holy one but no cost.

 Byte wrote:

 Cortez667 wrote:
410 points before the banner.... That's just crazy enough to work.

I actually don't deck mine out to the max, but yes, there's options...

And I thought ten DC with 4 fists was over the top...

tommse wrote:
Where do i find the prices for holy standards in the codex? My german version states that you can swap one of the listed banners for a holy one but no cost.

It is in the wargear list (in the English Codex, page 91; it should nod differ too much) - right before the army list costs.
You'll notice that Sacred Standards are quite expensive

After much thinking it seems;

A veteran can take a banner, storm shield, meltagun and thunder hammer as per "One veteran may take a banner from the following list:". He is not replacing anything and still has his bolt pistol and chainsword to swap, the storm shield just added on like the banner.

One veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion, ok so he's no longer a veteran he has been upgraded to something else entirely.

One veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary" again something else.

Now to me because these entries come before the rest of the options that's those models dealt with, although that does mean that a champion or apothecary could become a banner bearer which now lets them "Look out sir" which I can image some people won't be to happy with...

Was it just me or is this codex 'safe' and poorly written, workable but poorly written... I think the author was previously a good synergetic fantasy codex writer. Seems the games a worlds... no galaxies apart.

 Happyjew wrote:
The issue is multiple FAQs have addressed this differently.

Per the Ork FAQ, A Nob in a Boyz squad can swap out for an item that any model can have, before the whole unit switches from Shoota Boyz to Slugga Boyz.

Per the BA FAQ, a Furioso Dreadnought not only loses any upgrades already bought, but cannot take any other upgrades after becoming a Furioso Librarian.

The furioso librarian is a different model completely, different name than a furioso dreadnaught, and the ork codex is not worded boyz or nob it simply says Ork which both models qualify for. The BA dex says exchanging all wargear, the ork dex says may trade choppa and slugga for a shoota which the nob will not have the choppa if they have upgraded to say a PK. There is no conflict amongst the FAQs in that sense. The issue with the furioso is there is nothing specifically prohibiting it from buying options post upgrade other than the different name, hence the way people are reading the apothecary upgrade. I agree with those that say once an apothecary not a vet.

Not to mention, Sanguinary Novitiates (the Blood Angel Apothecary equivalent) are also excluded from taking Honour Guard options, so it's another precedent for differently named models being different for options.

although that does mean that a champion or apothecary could become a banner bearer which now lets them "Look out sir" which I can image some people won't be to happy with...

Nope, afraid not. Remember that it must be a VETERAN to take the banner option, and neither the Champion nor Apothecary is a Veteran any more, same reasoning behind the other options.

 The issue with the furioso is there is nothing specifically prohibiting it from buying options post upgrade other than the different name, hence the way people are reading the apothecary upgrade. I agree with those that say once an apothecary not a vet.

You've completely misunderstood the BA FaQ and the apothecary issue here. They are not related in anyway. The DA command squads states that the upgrades are for veterans (and therefore not apothecaries or anything other than a Veteran). The BA furioso entry makes no restriction on the name of a model taking its upgrades. So the Furioso Librarian is not exempt from taking those options because it has changed to a new type of model. It is forbidden from taking those options because the clause in the upgrade states replaces all wargear therefore any other wargear you purchase would also be replaced. In this way the Furioso is identical to the TH/SS terminator who is then not eligible to purchase extra weapons (a CML for example).

Better example - Painboy. The option to upgrade a Nob to a Painboy, is after all the upgrades. The Ork faq specifically forbids the Painboy from taking any wargear except for a bike or armour (as those options are for the whole unit).

 FlingitNow wrote:

TH/SS terminator who is then not eligible to purchase extra weapons (a CML for example).

you are completely wrong, because they take the th&SS then buy it. They replace all wargear at the point in time, it is not some reoccuring thing that happens. The furioso libby is different because he is a different name.

tgf wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

TH/SS terminator who is then not eligible to purchase extra weapons (a CML for example).

you are completely wrong, because they take the th&SS then buy it. They replace all wargear at the point in time, it is not some reoccuring thing that happens. The furioso libby is different because he is a different name.

I suggest you read the entry for a Furioso dread that will explain why you are wrong. What you would see if you were correct was wording that a Furioso Dread make take this wording is not present it simply says make take and puts no restriction on the name of the model.

i have read them and you are wrong.

The furioso trades everything and changes names, thus can not buy any more wargear.

The TH&SS trades everything, but does not change names and may then buy wargear.

To me this is a whole lot of argument for an extremely easy answer -- no, an Apothecary cannot take additional wargear.

When you elect to remove a veteran's bolt pistol, and give him a narthecium you are changing his profile from 'veteran' to 'apothecary'.

It doesn't matter if the stat line are identical, there is still three entries under 'Command Squad':
- Veteran
- Company Champion
- Apothecary

There is no indication an apothecary can take any additional wargear. 'Any veteran' applies to non-upgraded units.

If you're trying to justify giving a veteran wargear first, then swapping out his bolt pistol you're trying to subvert RAI -- as far as I'm concerned.

Why do you think that a name change is the reason that a Furioso Libby can't take wargear? What rules support that.

We know that name is important when an option states it can be selected by a model with a specific name. Why would it be important when an option does not list a specific name? And why assume when no name is given that means the options aren't available to the Libby when by the same logic yoi could say they are not open to the normal Furioso...

I fail to see the problem here.

No, an Apothecary cannot partake in the options reserved for Veterans.....but said Apothecary CAN make use of those options while he is still a Veteran, ie before upgrading to Apothecary.

There is no inherent order of operations assigned to the various upgrades.

As long as you don't switch out his Bolt Pistol, which you will need to trade in for the Narthecium, you can upgrade a Veteran-soon-to-be-Apothecary to your hearts content....and THEN upgrade him to an Apothecary.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I fail to see the problem here.

No, an Apothecary cannot partake in the options reserved for Veterans.....but said Apothecary CAN make use of those options while he is still a Veteran, ie before upgrading to Apothecary.

There is no inherent order of operations assigned to the various upgrades.

As long as you don't switch out his Bolt Pistol, which you will need to trade in for the Narthecium, you can upgrade a Veteran-soon-to-be-Apothecary to your hearts content....and THEN upgrade him to an Apothecary.

So then a Painboy can take a bosspole, 'eavy armour, ammo runt and Waagh! banner, as long as he takes them while he is a Nob? THe Ork FAQ would disagree with you.

Edit: Earlier I said that painboyz could get the 'eavy armour i thought that it was a unit upgrade, not a model upgrade.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you think that a name change is the reason that a Furioso Libby can't take wargear? What rules support that.

We know that name is important when an option states it can be selected by a model with a specific name. Why would it be important when an option does not list a specific name? And why assume when no name is given that means the options aren't available to the Libby when by the same logic yoi could say they are not open to the normal Furioso...

Because that is the standard that has been applied across several codexs. As I stated in my original post the problem with the BA Furioso entry was that it was not specific. That is why it needed and FAQ.

 Happyjew wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
I fail to see the problem here.

No, an Apothecary cannot partake in the options reserved for Veterans.....but said Apothecary CAN make use of those options while he is still a Veteran, ie before upgrading to Apothecary.

There is no inherent order of operations assigned to the various upgrades.

As long as you don't switch out his Bolt Pistol, which you will need to trade in for the Narthecium, you can upgrade a Veteran-soon-to-be-Apothecary to your hearts content....and THEN upgrade him to an Apothecary.

So then a Painboy can take a bosspole, 'eavy armour, ammo runt and Waagh! banner, as long as he takes them while he is a Nob? THe Ork FAQ would disagree with you.

Edit: Earlier I said that painboyz could get the 'eavy armour i thought that it was a unit upgrade, not a model upgrade.

The FAQ does not disagree with me at all.

The following two quotes repeats exactly what I just said;

Q. Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the 'eavy armou, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (page 98)
A. No

Q.If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a powerklaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A.You may up grade the Nob to have a big choppa or powerklaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and powerklaw/bigchoppa.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
I fail to see the problem here.

No, an Apothecary cannot partake in the options reserved for Veterans.....but said Apothecary CAN make use of those options while he is still a Veteran, ie before upgrading to Apothecary.

There is no inherent order of operations assigned to the various upgrades.

As long as you don't switch out his Bolt Pistol, which you will need to trade in for the Narthecium, you can upgrade a Veteran-soon-to-be-Apothecary to your hearts content....and THEN upgrade him to an Apothecary.

So then a Painboy can take a bosspole, 'eavy armour, ammo runt and Waagh! banner, as long as he takes them while he is a Nob? THe Ork FAQ would disagree with you.

Edit: Earlier I said that painboyz could get the 'eavy armour i thought that it was a unit upgrade, not a model upgrade.

The FAQ does not disagree with me at all.

The following two quotes repeats exactly what I just said;

Q. Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the 'eavy armou, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (page 98)
A. No

Q.If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a powerklaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A.You may up grade the Nob to have a big choppa or powerklaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and powerklaw/bigchoppa.

Your argument is you can take the upgrades in any order so you give a Veteran X, Y, and Z and then upgrade to an Apothecary. The first FAQ you quoted says a Painboy (which is the last listed upgrade for a Nob, and only swaps out weapons) cannot take the Nob equipment even though nothing restricts them other than being a Painboy instead of a Nob. The second FAQ deals with upgrades that can be taken by any model, not a specific model within the unit.

tgf wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you think that a name change is the reason that a Furioso Libby can't take wargear? What rules support that.

We know that name is important when an option states it can be selected by a model with a specific name. Why would it be important when an option does not list a specific name? And why assume when no name is given that means the options aren't available to the Libby when by the same logic yoi could say they are not open to the normal Furioso...

Because that is the standard that has been applied across several codexs. As I stated in my original post the problem with the BA Furioso entry was that it was not specific. That is why it needed and FAQ.

Sorry what? Where has the standard been that options only apply to certain named models with the option not naming that model. And how prey tell are we to determine which options are available to which models with out the rules telling us?

 Happyjew wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:


The FAQ does not disagree with me at all.

The following two quotes repeats exactly what I just said;

Q. Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the 'eavy armou, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (page 98)
A. No

Q.If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a powerklaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A.You may up grade the Nob to have a big choppa or powerklaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and powerklaw/bigchoppa.

Your argument is you can take the upgrades in any order so you give a Veteran X, Y, and Z and then upgrade to an Apothecary.

Correct.

The first FAQ you quoted says a Painboy (which is the last listed upgrade for a Nob, and only swaps out weapons) cannot take the Nob equipment even though nothing restricts them other than being a Painboy instead of a Nob.

Isn't that a thing we agree on? A Painboy cannot take upgrades reserved for Nobs, simply by virtue of not being a Nob? Just like an Apothecary cannot take upgrades reserved for Veterans, for the same reason?

(which is the last listed upgrade for a Nob, and only swaps out weapons)

The order in which options appear have never been shown to be of significance, and as the second FAQ shows the opposite is the case.

The second FAQ deals with upgrades that can be taken by any model, not a specific model within the unit.

I see you carefully avoid noticing that said FAQ always allows the options to be taken in the manner of our choosing.

Steelmage. Maybe there is some misunderstanding here. You are claiming that a Painboy (or an apothecary) can not take options that are reserved for Nobz (or Veterans) but can take them before upgrading to a Painboy (or apothecary).

 FlingitNow wrote:

tgf wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you think that a name change is the reason that a Furioso Libby can't take wargear? What rules support that.

We know that name is important when an option states it can be selected by a model with a specific name. Why would it be important when an option does not list a specific name? And why assume when no name is given that means the options aren't available to the Libby when by the same logic yoi could say they are not open to the normal Furioso...

Because that is the standard that has been applied across several codexs. As I stated in my original post the problem with the BA Furioso entry was that it was not specific. That is why it needed and FAQ.

Sorry what? Where has the standard been that options only apply to certain named models with the option not naming that model. And how prey tell are we to determine which options are available to which models with out the rules telling us?

I think you are just being purposefully obtuse now. The Furioso required and FAQ because of the ambiguity of the rules. Other rules specify , Ork, Nob, Company Veteran, Deathwing Terminator, when the models name changes they can no longer get the options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The painboy was also FAQ'd due to ambiguity in the codex. I am with HJ on this he can not get upgrades. The painboy entry if rewriten would say replace all wargear with...

I think you are just being purposefully obtuse now. The Furioso required and FAQ because of the ambiguity of the rules. Other rules specify , Ork, Nob, Company Veteran, Deathwing Terminator, when the models name changes they can no longer get the options.

Why assume the FaQ has anything to do with the name change? Answer me that. There is no precedence of rules applying to only certain units with out telling you which units. There was no errata stating that the wording should be "a Furioso Dreadnought may take". There is nothing that is backing up your interpretation of the FaQ. So why have you come to that conclusion beyond the FaQ simply clarifying how the wording on the Libby upgrade works?

Steelmage99 wrote:
The FAQ does not disagree with me at all.

The following two quotes repeats exactly what I just said;

Q. Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the 'eavy armou, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (page 98)
A. No

Q.If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a powerklaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A.You may up grade the Nob to have a big choppa or powerklaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and powerklaw/bigchoppa.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

A Nob who switches out his Boy upgrades is not beholden to the unitwide upgrade because his Nob upgrade list overrides the squad upgrade list. You'll note that the override is only in place IF he uses his new gear list - that is, a boy nob may not have a slugga and choppa if his boyz have shootas because the whole unit must swap their choppas. He does not have to swap out his choppa only if, unlike the Boys, he has no choppa to swappa. He may therefore choose options that the boy would not have. But he is NOT entitled to Boy-only upgrades; he may NOT take a Big Shoota or Rokkit. He is not a Boy.

A Painboy is forbidden to take Nob upgrades because he is a Painboy, not a Nob.

an Imperial Guard Medic is not entitled to Veteran upgrades because he is a Medic, not a Veteran.

An Apothecary is forbidden to take Veteran upgrades because he is an Apothecary, not a Veteran.

There is no discrepancy between the books or FAQs. It is a universal rule.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I think you are just being purposefully obtuse now. The Furioso required and FAQ because of the ambiguity of the rules. Other rules specify , Ork, Nob, Company Veteran, Deathwing Terminator, when the models name changes they can no longer get the options.

Why assume the FaQ has anything to do with the name change? Answer me that. There is no precedence of rules applying to only certain units with out telling you which units. There was no errata stating that the wording should be "a Furioso Dreadnought may take". There is nothing that is backing up your interpretation of the FaQ. So why have you come to that conclusion beyond the FaQ simply clarifying how the wording on the Libby upgrade works?

The apothacary, painboy, champ etc. all have different names, same stat lines no upgrades from their privious title. Seems like a standard to me. Yes rather than doing errata they did an FAQ...that is GW for you.

The thread has the USR, "It will not die".