Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ailaros wrote:

Kingsley wrote:Plasma and AC synergizes fairly well, especially because the AC is a cheap and fairly effective way to extend the threat range of the plasmas.

I'd actually disagree with this.

Really, the only thing that the two weapons have in common is that they're both crappy against vehicles of AV12 or better. If you want to talk about real synergy with the plasma gun, your only real option is the lascannon. Honestly, the best special weapon to pair with an autocannon is nothing - better to save the points and just buy more autocannons somewhere.

That's how I feel about the lascannon. The high S and AP2 means I have a narrow target range that I'm aiming at and not many specials match up well enough.

How is str:9 ap:2 a narrow target range? That's good at everything except killing hordes. It actually matches up with the best special weapons you can take: melta and plasma.

It's not even like you can claim the AC is good at killing hordes. Two shots isn't going to thin out much.

2 shots times 3 means 6 shots. If you only have a single AC firing, of course it'll be bad. Get them in HWTs, it never failed to kill something, and my opponents are rather pissed at the numerous, storng shots I can get from AC HWT.
Vehicle wise, I face lots of cheap transport, so Str 7 works well for what it needs to do.

I also have lascannons for those heavy armoured tanks.

Can't just depends on a single HW or a single SW, got choices, take'em.

Maybe narrow was the wrong word. Optimal maybe?
I'm saying it's best used against specific targets and as it's more expensive that other options, I'd rather take just a lascannon then pair it with a special.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:2 shots times 3 means 6 shots. If you only have a single AC firing, of course it'll be bad. Get them in HWTs, it never failed to kill something, and my opponents are rather pissed at the numerous, storng shots I can get from AC HWT.
Vehicle wise, I face lots of cheap transport, so Str 7 works well for what it needs to do.

I also have lascannons for those heavy armoured tanks.

Can't just depends on a single HW or a single SW, got choices, take'em.

That's terrible advice. By HWT I'm assuming you mean HWSs by mentioning 3. HWSs are awful units.
6 autocannon shots are worse than 3 lascannon shots. I don't see how that's any different to 1 lascannon and 1 autocannon.

No one is saying you must rely on a single HW or SW, that's silly and a misrepresentation of what people are saying. However, why buy both LCs and ACs when you can bring just LCs and deal with everything better than an AC. Granted the AC is better at AV:10-11, but not only is that not so common any more, and the LC is very close behind, while sky-rocketing ahead against all other targets.

minigun762 wrote:Maybe narrow was the wrong word. Optimal maybe?
I'm saying it's best used against specific targets and as it's more expensive that other options, I'd rather take just a lascannon than pair it with a special.

It's more expensive because it's better. Saying it's best used against specific targets doesn't limit it's firing, it just means it better than the AC at those targets, while being similar at everything else.

Tell me what the optimal target is for an autocannon. AV:10-11 is its niche. Compare that to the lascannon which is optimal against MCs, AV:12+, 2+ saves, IDing T4 models. It's also better at killing 3+ saves than the autocannon, which is undeniably the most common armour type you find.

Considering that the LC is better at all these things, it's a steal.

I'm not arguing that lascannons are bad. I'm sorry if it is coming across that way.

Lascannons are very good weapons.

I face CSM and Orks, so AV 10-11 is a plenty wehre I am, so AC are fine.
HWSs are also good for my area as well, and I do infantry, not mech so it fills a position I need

LC might be better, but yeah they are costier: meaning you will have more LC out of the cost of something else, less troops, vehicles, whatever

As a horde/NobBiker player, please switch over to 100% Lascannons.

Seriously though, the guy who had the variety of weapons always has he right tool for the job.

If I could take GL's, Grotzookas ruled in 5th, now not so much.

BS3 GL will do 0.5 hits, 0.41 wounds, 0.13 MEQ kills. Plasma will do 0.41 kills in total, 0.27 in 5+ cover.

However, the GL costs 1/3 as much as the plasma gun, so we have to factor that in and divide the plasma kills by 3, which gives us 0.9 in 5+ cover. Put it another way, the grenade launcher is more effective than the plasma gun at killing MEQ.

Obviously there's more to it than that - the plasma gun can double tap, but also runs the risk of blowing up in its owners face, which is why I never take the buggers. However the GL also gets the small blast, which can be situationally very useful. A PCS with GLs could throw a tonne of wounds down on pretty much any deep-striking unit.

So having said that, I still wouldn't stick them on vets or infantry squads, they're best off with melta (and lascannon if you want a heavy weapon). I might stick them on some foot PCSs though if they were behind an Aegis.

 BryllCream wrote:
BS3 GL will do 0.5 hits, 0.41 wounds, 0.13 MEQ kills. Plasma will do 0.41 kills in total, 0.27 in 5+ cover.

Then you look at the PG in every other situation. Once you do that, you'll see why you're argument is invalid. Also you seem to confuse the word "effective" with the word "efficient." Since your math shows that the plasma is more effective.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
BS3 GL will do 0.5 hits, 0.41 wounds, 0.13 MEQ kills. Plasma will do 0.41 kills in total, 0.27 in 5+ cover.

Then you look at the PG in every other situation. Once you do that, you'll see why you're argument is invalid. Also you seem to confuse the word "effective" with the word "efficient." Since your math shows that the plasma is more effective.

The only thing plasma is usefully better at is 2+, which my meta largely lacks. Armour penetration is irrelevent since plasma guns shouldn't be shooting vehicles.

The plasma gun is also excellent at getting its user blown up. On average a plasma gunner will blow himself up before he makes his points back. But that's moot since your troops shouldn't be doing the heavy lifting, hence spending 5 points for a very marginal upgrade is better than spending 15 points for a very marginal upgrade.

 BryllCream wrote:
However, the GL costs 1/3 as much as the plasma gun, so we have to factor that in and divide the plasma kills by 3, which gives us 0.9 in 5+ cover.

Except that's bad math. You can't just look at the gun cost, you have to consider the carrier cost (since you can't just bring 3x as many GLs to reach a desired number of dead MEQs, you're limited to a given number of special weapon slots).

Put it another way, the grenade launcher is more effective than the plasma gun at killing MEQ.

Only in cover and outside of 12". Outside of that one specific situation the plasma gun wins.

A PCS with GLs could throw a tonne of wounds down on pretty much any deep-striking unit.

Not really. Let's assume you're shooting at deep striking MEQs, and by some miracle you manage to get direct hits with all four GLs (7 hits per shot, assuming a full ring of models in the unit). Congratulations, you're killing an amazing three marines on average. And that's a ridiculously generous scenario, in any more realistic scenario you're doing much less than that.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
However, the GL costs 1/3 as much as the plasma gun, so we have to factor that in and divide the plasma kills by 3, which gives us 0.9 in 5+ cover.

Except that's bad math. You can't just look at the gun cost, you have to consider the carrier cost (since you can't just bring 3x as many GLs to reach a desired number of dead MEQs, you're limited to a given number of special weapon slots).

Hence why I wouldn't put them in veterans or PISs.

Put it another way, the grenade launcher is more effective than the plasma gun at killing MEQ.

Only in cover and outside of 12". Outside of that one specific situation the plasma gun wins.

I don't think cover and >12" range is "one specific situation".

Who puts plasma's on PCSs? You give them a LC or 4* flamers.

 BryllCream wrote:
I don't think cover and >12" range is "one specific situation".

Of course it is. Inside 12" the plasma gun has double the firepower. Without cover (remember focus fire?) the plasma gun has the same per-point firepower as the GL, and more firepower in absolute terms.

And plasma guns would average 4 hits, 3.3 kills (as well as killing one of their own) . Assuming a more realistic scatter for the GL for about 2 kills, and you're looking at an extra MEQ kill for an additional 40 points. So again in this situation, grenade launchers win over.

Except that:

1) 2 kills is still optimistic.

and

2) The point isn't that plasma guns are amazing at killing deep striking MEQs, it's that the supposed "advantage" the GL's blast mode offers is pretty much worthless. Even in the (completely unrealistic) best possible scenario it's still disappointing, and in an average scenario (1-2 hits at most per shot) it's barely any better than the lasgun it replaces.

3 PCSs with grenade launchers instead of plasmas will save you 120 points. That's enough to turn 2 vanilla Russes into Executioners, that's where you want your plasma killing power.

How are you getting 3x PCS in your list? Even taking a huge infantry horde is only going to give you two of them.

And GL vs. plasma is kind of a false dilemma here. PCS get flamers and ride in Vendettas.

Could GLs be remotely useful in special weapons squads? They die fast, but this way they'd be quite cheap.

 Crimson wrote:
Could GLs be remotely useful in special weapons squads? They die fast, but this way they'd be quite cheap.

No. Melta SWS are almost as cheap and might actually accomplish something before they die. GL SWS are just a waste of points.

But melta has completely different role. I'm not sure you can compare it like that.

Flamers, then.

Flamer SWS in vendettas are actually really good. Melta SWS with a specific purpose is good. Demo charge SWS squad is not efficient but is awesome. Anything else SWS is just useless and a waste of points. Its like getting a vet squad without upgrades...possible but why?

Grenade launchers do have a purpose in 500 point games they are okay. AC/GL is only ever okay at best and that is only in relation to lasguns.

Other than that convert them like shown above or if you have space marine guns use the arms/stock to kitbash with the SM gun.

I was thinking GL SWs as cheap mid- or backfield objective campers. Short ranged weapon such as melta or flamer is no good for such a role.

My favorite use for GLs is to convert to plasmas and meltas, but I generally avoid giving these to units with BS3, unless I can get a to-hit re-roll on them somehow (orders, psykers,...).

 Crimson wrote:
I was thinking GL SWs as cheap mid- or backfield objective campers. Short ranged weapon such as melta or flamer is no good for such a role.

I've said before that I like using PCS in a similar way, either walking or inside a Chimera. Either way it provides a little bit extra firepower at range while you're giving orders to run or fire extra flashlights.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I don't think cover and >12" range is "one specific situation".

Of course it is. Inside 12" the plasma gun has double the firepower. Without cover (remember focus fire?) the plasma gun has the same per-point firepower as the GL

Yes, and outside of those strict conditions the GL wins out point-for-point, with the added bonus of not blowing up and killing its user, and the optional small blast. All for 10 points less, you seem to be forgetting this.

and more firepower in absolute terms.

That's why I would't put them on something that I expect to run up to a unit and reliably do damage, i.e. vets. And I'd want melta with my PISs to deter vehicles. W

And plasma guns would average 4 hits, 3.3 kills (as well as killing one of their own) . Assuming a more realistic scatter for the GL for about 2 kills, and you're looking at an extra MEQ kill for an additional 40 points. So again in this situation, grenade launchers win over.

Except that:

1) 2 kills is still optimistic.

Not really. It assumes an average of 4.5 hits on a unit of 10 for a small blast template. I don't think that's too optimistic.

2) The point isn't that plasma guns are amazing at killing deep striking MEQs, it's that the supposed "advantage" the GL's blast mode offers is pretty much worthless. Even in the (completely unrealistic) best possible scenario it's still disappointing, and in an average scenario (1-2 hits at most per shot) it's barely any better than the lasgun it replaces.

It's not "worthless", it cost 5 points, of course it's not going to take out AV 14 or terminators. And it is far more effective than a lasgun vs MEQ, 0.13 kills vs 0.05 kills.

How are you getting 3x PCS in your list? Even taking a huge infantry horde is only going to give you two of them.

6 infantry squads at 300 poitns, 3 PCS for 60. You can easily take 5PCs in a 1500 point game with enough spare points for an Aegis and some Russes. I'd rather they had grenade launchers than plasmas, since with plasmas they'd have a massive "shoot me now" sign over their head. A unit that's deadly at short range, but T3 5+ with no ablative wounds and poor Ld...that won't last long. Whereas with grenade launchers they can still do some damage, but they're cheap enough that losing a squad or five doesn't bother you.

And GL vs. plasma is kind of a false dilemma here. PCS get flamers and ride in Vendettas.

Then I can go play 40k by myself in the dark. Yay!

Crimson wrote:Could GLs be remotely useful in special weapons squads? They die fast, but this way they'd be quite cheap.

Crimson wrote:I was thinking GL SWs as cheap mid- or backfield objective campers. Short ranged weapon such as melta or flamer is no good for such a role.

What? How is die fast a quality you want in objective campers?

 BryllCream wrote:
Yes, and outside of those strict conditions the GL wins out point-for-point, with the added bonus of not blowing up and killing its user, and the optional small blast. All for 10 points less, you seem to be forgetting this.

Do the math again. At under 12" or without cover plasma guns beat grenade launchers both in total kills AND in kills-per-point.

Also, as we've already been over, the small blast is worthless.

Not really. It assumes an average of 4.5 hits on a unit of 10 for a small blast template. I don't think that's too optimistic.

That's pretty optimistic since even fairly low scatter will ruin the shot. Let's do the math: assuming a 7-model unit (the extra three models will be off-center and make it a pain to calculate an average, but it shouldn't make a huge difference) you have a maximum scatter distance of 3.5" before you miss the unit entirely, and anything close to 3.5" is going to only hit 1-2 models at most. Under the unrealistic assumption that any scatter roll where any part of the template touches the unit hits the full seven AND rounding up to 4" of scatter allowed you get an average of 4.44 hits per shot. However this is completely unrealistic, in a real situation any scatter above 1" starts to hit less than seven models with the number of hits dropping to zero very quickly.

In short: the exact average will depend on your assumptions, but it's going to be way less than 4.5. And that's HITS, not unsaved wounds, you still have to deal with the fact that you're shooting a STR 3 AP - weapon.

It's not "worthless", it cost 5 points, of course it's not going to take out AV 14 or terminators. And it is far more effective than a lasgun vs MEQ, 0.13 kills vs 0.05 kills.

Nonsense. It's STR 3 AP -, just like a lasgun is STR 3 AP -. Both of them hit one model at most (outside of the rare situation where your target is bunched up), the only difference is that the GL usually hits one model even when it 'misses', while the lasgun shoots twice within 12". So outside 12" the GL is equal to two lasguns, while inside 12" it's only equal to the lasgun it replaces. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't think that paying 5 points for part of a lasgun is a very big upgrade.

6 infantry squads at 300 poitns, 3 PCS for 60.

But WHY? 6 infantry squads only needs two platoons, so why would you take three platoons and waste points on another redundant PCS? PCS are the prerequisites to unlock the things you want, not a unit you actually want in your army.

Then I can go play 40k by myself in the dark. Yay!

Yeah, because taking Vendettas means nobody will ever play against you...

Peregrine I'm sick of argueing with you. If you're just going to take anyone's argument that disagrees with you even slightly and pretending that they're argueing something completely different, then you can do it on your own.

Have fun with your vendetta and forgeworld lists anyway.

 BryllCream wrote:
Peregrine I'm sick of argueing with you. If you're just going to take anyone's argument that disagrees with you even slightly and pretending that they're argueing something completely different, then you can do it on your own.

I didn't pretend that you're arguing something completely different. I just pointed out that your math is wrong, and your strategy is a bad one.

 Griddlelol wrote:

What? How is die fast a quality you want in objective campers?

It is not, but there is no IG infantry that doesn't die fast. Being cheap however is a quality you might want on objective campers.

 BryllCream wrote:
Peregrine I'm sick of argueing with you. If you're just going to take anyone's argument that disagrees with you even slightly and pretending that they're argueing something completely different, then you can do it on your own.

Have fun with your vendetta and forgeworld lists anyway.

So when your argument is debunked you switch to personal jabs without even explaining what constitutes this perceived Strawman. Have fun with your "moral high ground".