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I only ask because I have seen many older posts that loved GLAC formations as they were called and I have to ask... what changed? Because now it seems like almost universally people want to shy away from those, particularly GL

Thanks for the info@

It was never a good combination. Some people didn't realise it until recently.

 Ailaros wrote:
It was never a good combination. Some people didn't realise it until recently.

This.

ACs were good in 5th but are less good in 6th now that AP 2 and AP 4 are no longer equal against vehicles. Grenade launchers were never good, people just focused on the "amazing" 5 points you save over a melta gun on a 60+ point unit and missed the difference between "cheap and efficient" and "cheap but useless".

Interesting! Thank you!

Ac's good in HWTs.
GLs are good to give to PCS if you would prefer them to be a bit more offensive than than flamer PCS.

Still good cynergy with the GL/AC, jsut not a top tier one like plasmagun/LC for example.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
GLs are good to give to PCS if you would prefer them to be a bit more offensive than than flamer PCS.

By offensive, I guess you mean defensive. Dropping a pyro-PCS back field to blast some people off an objective is about as offensive as you can get.

Still good cynergy with the GL/AC, jsut not a top tier one like plasmagun/LC for example.

How? There is no synergy between the GL and AC. They're additive, not synergistic. And they add to gak.

Not everyone got the cash or the intrest or buy some Valkyrie kits.

And GL's can fire Str 6AP4 which works well with the AC's Str7AP4 shots

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Not everyone got the cash or the intrest or buy some Valkyrie kits.

And GL's can fire Str 6AP4 which works well with the AC's Str7AP4 shots

And still worse than the S7 AP2 of the Plasma Gun or S8 AP1 of the Melta Gun.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Not everyone got the cash or the intrest or buy some Valkyrie kits.

And GL's can fire Str 6AP4 which works well with the AC's Str7AP4 shots

Dafuq? Who needs Valkyries to melta people? If you wanna hoof it, then you can, or you can take Al'Rahem and outflank those suckers into side-armour.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
And GL's can fire Str 6AP4 which works well with the AC's Str7AP4 shots

And a STR 8 AP 1 or STR 7 AP 2 shot works better with an AC than STR 6 AP 4.

What about plasma & autocannons? Simple S7 shooting. Hope that AC's ROF makes up for bad AP.

 minigun762 wrote:
What about plasma & autocannons? Simple S7 shooting. Hope that AC's ROF makes up for bad AP.

Plasma and AC synergizes fairly well, especially because the AC is a cheap and fairly effective way to extend the threat range of the plasmas.

What have y'all been playing? I've been playing 6th ed guard with plasma, melta, grenade launchers, autocannons, AND lascannons. Recently I took first in a tournament with a varied list in weapon choice. I don't care what anyone says, assault blast weapons or str 6 will handle most everything. I use alot of str 6 spam like most eldar lists, havn't had a problem

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I don't care what anyone says, assault blast weapons or str 6 will handle most everything.

Everything except properly spaced-out hordes, elite infantry, MCs, and vehicles. IOW, grenade launchers will handle everything except most targets.

I use alot of str 6 spam like most eldar lists, havn't had a problem

Eldar don't use STR 6 spam because STR 6 spam is good, they use it because everything else in their codex is horribly overpriced. Fortunately IG don't suffer from that problem so there's no reason to take weak weapons instead of good ones.

 Peregrine wrote:

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I don't care what anyone says, assault blast weapons or str 6 will handle most everything.

Everything except properly spaced-out hordes, elite infantry, MCs, and vehicles. IOW, grenade launchers will handle everything except most targets.

Don't worry too much about what the Internet says. Grenade Launchers are hardly ideal by any means, and they don't outclass the other special weapons, but they're not "useless". If you like 'em, then good for you.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Don't worry too much about what the Internet says. Grenade Launchers are hardly ideal by any means, and they don't outclass the other special weapons, but they're not "useless". If you like 'em, then good for you.

Which is fine if you want to stubbornly do something just because people tell you not to, or if you "like" grenade launchers and don't care about winning, but if you want to win games the correct choice is obvious.

I could see Grenade launchers being better then the flamer in only one situation. Grots clustered together in the open at 24 inches. Only because you cant reach them with the flamer.

Kingsley wrote:Plasma and AC synergizes fairly well, especially because the AC is a cheap and fairly effective way to extend the threat range of the plasmas.

I'd actually disagree with this. The two weapons share a single stat, but that's about it.

Against light vehicles, plasma guns are a fair bit better thanks to Ap2. Meanwhile, a plasma gun is a serious weapon to use against terminators and monstrous creatures, while the autocannon isn't. Meanwhile, with a guardsman with a plasma gun shooting at other guardsmen you're getting pretty close to killing off your own 20 point model before you kill 20 points worth of enemy guardsmen. Put another way, it's almost better not to shoot plasma guns at hordes (and it definitely isn't if your opponent's hordes have cover saves).

Really, the only thing that the two weapons have in common is that they're both crappy against vehicles of AV12 or better. If you want to talk about real synergy with the plasma gun, your only real option is the lascannon. Honestly, the best special weapon to pair with an autocannon is nothing - better to save the points and just buy more autocannons somewhere.

Well....the grenade launcher has range on the melta, and doesn't blow up in your face like the plasma gun. So there's that. I just sniper rifles were a realistic option.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Well....the grenade launcher has range on the melta, and doesn't blow up in your face like the plasma gun. So there's that. I just sniper rifles were a realistic option.

It has range, but it never does anything at that range. Spending a turn getting into range and firing once with a melta gun is better than firing twice with a grenade launcher.

 Peregrine wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Well....the grenade launcher has range on the melta, and doesn't blow up in your face like the plasma gun. So there's that. I just sniper rifles were a realistic option.

It has range, but it never does anything at that range. Spending a turn getting into range and firing once with a melta gun is better than firing twice with a grenade launcher.

Depends what you're shooting at. works fine for 'ard boyz, light transport, firewarriors..most Geq wound easely Meq

I don't know I've rolled marine razor/rhino spam lists out, knocked planes out of the air, and doubled some characters out with my GL/AC. Anything they couldn't handle I used melta and plasma

I used AC/GL in the two infantry squads in my otherwise mech infantry IG in 5th. I stuck with the GL for three reasons:
1) I didn't rely on those squads for much other than backfield objective holding/bubble wrap
2) Plasma guns weren't nearly as good in 5th as they are in 6th (better cover, no AP2 bonus on vehicles)
3) In my particular list, by the time I included all the units I wanted, there wasn't a lot of room to upgrade the infantry squads. I skimped on units I didn't expect firepower from to upgun other parts of the list. Upping both squads to LC/PG was 40pts, and AC/Pg 20. My list didn't have 20 points of fat in it.

I wouldn't use that combination much in 6th for several reasons:
1) The AC is no longer a clear choice for light vehicles, due to AP4
2) The prime target of the AC, light vehicles, are rarer now.
3) infantry is better, and as such, it's carrying more the load. Las/plas is how line squads do damage.

Add in the fact that Plasma and GLs have the same effective range now that rapid fire can shoot 24" after moving, and GLs go from being a cheap niche weapon to being a cheap, lousy weapon.

To answer a broader question, take conventional wisdom into account, but never be afraid to analyse what your army needs vs. what you have points for when building a list. Just because something is "almost always useless" doesn't mean it's not the best fit for your army. Iv'e seen good players win tournaments with units I couldnt' find uses for. I've won plenty of tournaments with weapons or upgrades that the internet didn't like. In 4th, I loved a PCS with Missile/plasma. In 5th, It was GLAC infantry and a suicide melta CCS in valkyrie.

Good players quickly understand and use the innovaitons of others. Great players do the innovating. And that's a process that requires doing something "wrong."

That all said, I wouldn't bet on GLs being a unit with hidden value.

 Polonius wrote:

2) Plasma guns weren't nearly as good in 5th as they are in 6th (better cover, no AP2 bonus on vehicles)

In 5th you had a 1/3 chance to destroy the vehicle with an AP2 weapon when rolling on the Vehicle Damage Chart. In 6th edition you have a 1/3 chance to destroy the vehicle when rolling on the Vehicle Damage Chart. I really wish people would catch on already. It's been a year soon and this argument is still zooming around. Nothing personal, though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

2) Plasma guns weren't nearly as good in 5th as they are in 6th (better cover, no AP2 bonus on vehicles)

In 5th you had a 1/3 chance to destroy the vehicle with an AP2 weapon when rolling on the Vehicle Damage Chart. In 6th edition you have a 1/3 chance to destroy the vehicle when rolling on the Vehicle Damage Chart. I really wish people would catch on already. It's been a year soon and this argument is still zooming around. Nothing personal, though.

I'm not saying plasma guns weren't as good at kiiling tanks. I just meant as good in general, particularly relative to the other options.

One of the axioms for IG is to never leave a special weapon slot empty. (It used to be never leave a special or a heavy weapon slot empty, but mech vets rarely use a heavy, and neither do blobs)

So, that leaves a heirarchy. Regardless of venue (IS, Vets, CCS, PCS), melta was the huge frontrunner in 5th, followed by plasma, which was closely followed by flamers. GLs were just cheap enough to have a niche. Now? Plasma is the clear frontrunner, with melta/flamer back together, and GLs basically obsolete.

My point was that swapping a GL for plasma (if range is your thing) is a great use of 10 points now, and was only a good use of points in 5th.

That's not the Plasma Gun getting better though, it's the Grenade Launcher getting even worse.

Wait there is definitely a use for grenade launchers...to hack apart to make plasmaguns.

 ansacs wrote:
Wait there is definitely a use for grenade launchers...to hack apart to make plasmaguns.

Would you care to provide the tutorial for that? I'm in need of some and the bloody IG box only comes with Grenade Launchers and Flamers.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/467370.page

May Snrub be your saviour

Woot thanks. Now I'll have to get some more infantry boxes.