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Deathwing and DeathRaven are awesome. I'm hesitant about running pure Ravenwing due to the abundance of Heldrakes out there, which seem to be specifically designed to mess up bike armies...

Deathwing. But I'm an odd duck with that, because I am using the Deathwing rules to field a force from the Blood Angels 1st Company. No Knights or anything DA-specific, just 20-odd normal Terminators, A Librarian, a Dread, and a pair of Land Raiders.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 washout77 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
A single Bloodthirster could wipe out an entire Deathwing army without breaking a sweat. We have no answer to FMCs, especially Flying Greater Daemons.

I have so far devastated any Bloodthirster that has come after my deathwing, I use my TH/SS termies to beat them down and with a 3+ invuln they kill almost none of my guys. Greater Daemons so far have failed to make any impact on the termies most of their attacks have bounced and I force them to assault what I want them to assault.

How many can you possibly field? One unit? The BT has wings, it just goes after your non TH/SS termies and the rest of the Daemon force rapes your single TH/SS squad.

Deathwing can comfortably field 3-4 units of TH/SS and have points to spare. I too have pretty much slaughtered any Bloodthirster that tried to assault me, and the rest of the army wasn't too difficult to put down. The only time I lost a full unit to a bloodthirster was when I rolled straight 1's for everything....

3-4? what points level are you playing at, 2000? There's space for one or two, at most, and you lose a 2/5ths of your shooting.

If we're bringing 10 man units of TH/SS units, sure. Not a whole lot of armies can fit even 2 of those in.

With 5 man TH/SS units, I can fit 5 units in at 245 a piece + Belial. I can bump 1 to 10 men for extra power.

Deathwing is literally the least competitive build you can make from this list, and stick to a wing approach. An army made entirely of TH/SS termies WILL lose against anything shooting. [Mod Edit - Rule #1 please -thanks! Alpharius] if that's all you bring and hope for the best, shooting is needed this edition. That's why I prefer RW/DW mixed or DW/GW mixed

I just don't feel Deathwing pull their weight, especially in a Ravenwing list. Why spend points on terminators when you can have 2x squads of Black Knights which are so much better in every possible way?

Greenwing, Greenwing all the way.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Deathwing and DeathRaven are awesome. I'm hesitant about running pure Ravenwing due to the abundance of Heldrakes out there, which seem to be specifically designed to mess up bike armies...

I'll be honest, this is exactly what has kept me from running Ravenwing. Heldrakes seem like they are the perfect answer to an all-bike Army with Vector Strike and a turreted flamer, and given the proliferation of Heldrakes in today's meta (see: BAO), I just don't see how Ravenwing can be competitive in that environment. What answer do they have to one, two or even three Heldrakes?

I'd love to get some insight from Ravenwing players about how they've handled Heldrakes in a competitive environment.

Thansk for all of the replies!
What I find to be interesting is that with all of the talk about how a "pure" Deathwing list would lose in major tournaments it's also the most played list with it being in first place right now! Why do you guys think that??? Is it due to the coolness, 2+/5++, special rules, easy painting, etc....... Thought it would be interesting to ask.

Helldrakes....... What can most armies do against them??? From what I hear and read there isn't really anything you can do against them ATM except to bring your own flyiers and hope for the best. Additionally, You can always bring in loads of ADL + QG or Flakk options but even then the Heldrakes are still wrecking balls that are extrememly hard to deal with.

I'm also surprised that I haven't seen more talk about the, in my opinion, most powerful unit in the DA Codex...........the Black Knights. TL Plasma Talon, Skilled Rider, 6+ rending in CC, and Hit and Run! Man those are by far the best units in the DA Codex, again being my opinion!

Finally, what about those Fluff armies. Has anyone actually fielded a fluff army and had some success with it. IMHO I think this book actually enables you to do that with moderate success on the field. Let me know your thoughts

Regardless of what type of army you take, though, black knights are not typically scoring and they are a massive investment of points. Yes they are effective, but you pay through the nose for it.

Pure Ravenwing.

Sammael with a Bolter Banner Ravenwing Command Squad
A Darkshorud
A goodsized Black Knights squad (7 in my case)
As many Ravenwing Bike squads with Multimelta Attack Bikes you can fit (5 in my case).

Has quickly gained a "OMG! That is fricking broken! I am not playing that army again!" level of reputation in my group.

I would have to disagree that the Black Knights would be a huge point sink. For what you get with them and to have a 6 man strong unit for 269pts + PW is a steal IMO.

Actually, Greenwing seems to be a viable option. The other wings are questionable since they are elite armies with a small model count and to vulnerable in take-all-comers games (plasma vs. DW and Helldrake and whatnot vs. RW).

A single Mortis Contemptor is the answer to all Helldrake woes. All flier woes, in fact.

Why do people like to run BKs in large units? I find them horribly overkill in groups larger than five.

I like running them in teams of six. Eight TL Plasma + 2 Grenade shots. In CC Your are looking at 20 Corvus Hammer (on 6s Rending) + 4 AP 3 attacks. If this doesn't do the job then most likely you have been unlucky in the "rolling phase' LOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So we have over 100 votes so far in the poll!
Here are the Top 3;

1. Deathwing
2. Ravenwing/Deathwing
3. Tie Breaker: Ravenwing & Greenwing/Ravenwing/Deathwing

So here are my next questions. First, why is the Deathwing #1 when most people have said that it is the least likely to win going up against most armies both in casual and tournament settings? Second, what are some of the best lists out there for the infamous Ravenwing/Deathwing combo (1250, 1500, 1850, & 2000pts)? Finally, At what point game are you guys playing with all three wings and are actually able to cohesively deliver a winning blow to the opponent (I personally find it difficult to effectively have a good army of all three wings below 1750pts)?

Malik_Raynor wrote:
I like running them in teams of six. Eight TL Plasma + 2 Grenade shots. In CC Your are looking at 20 Corvus Hammer (on 6s Rending) + 4 AP 3 attacks. If this doesn't do the job then most likely you have been unlucky in the "rolling phase' LOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So we have over 100 votes so far in the poll!
Here are the Top 3;

1. Deathwing
2. Ravenwing/Deathwing
3. Tie Breaker: Ravenwing & Greenwing/Ravenwing/Deathwing

So here are my next questions. First, why is the Deathwing #1 when most people have said that it is the least likely to win going up against most armies both in casual and tournament settings? Second, what are some of the best lists out there for the infamous Ravenwing/Deathwing combo (1250, 1500, 1850, & 2000pts)? Finally, At what point game are you guys playing with all three wings and are actually able to cohesively deliver a winning blow to the opponent (I personally find it difficult to effectively have a good army of all three wings below 1750pts)?

Probably because under the old book Deathwing was the only semi-competitive option so many have not adapted to the new bool where ravenwing is fantastic and only has one common hard counter in Heldrakes.

Malik_Raynor wrote:
I like running them in teams of six. Eight TL Plasma + 2 Grenade shots. In CC Your are looking at 20 Corvus Hammer (on 6s Rending) + 4 AP 3 attacks. If this doesn't do the job then most likely you have been unlucky in the "rolling phase' LOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So we have over 100 votes so far in the poll!
Here are the Top 3;

1. Deathwing
2. Ravenwing/Deathwing
3. Tie Breaker: Ravenwing & Greenwing/Ravenwing/Deathwing

So here are my next questions. First, why is the Deathwing #1 when most people have said that it is the least likely to win going up against most armies both in casual and tournament settings? Second, what are some of the best lists out there for the infamous Ravenwing/Deathwing combo (1250, 1500, 1850, & 2000pts)? Finally, At what point game are you guys playing with all three wings and are actually able to cohesively deliver a winning blow to the opponent (I personally find it difficult to effectively have a good army of all three wings below 1750pts)?

Because Deathwing is cheap to field, easy to paint (well... easy in the sense you're painting 15 models instead of 150, bone is a bitch to paint) and fun to play- you're always outnumbered, on the edge, and when your termies roll hot they pwn face.

And TERMINATORS! they are still the most awesome unit GW has ever sculpted (except for some of the glaring armour thickness issues around the thighs)

 Flinty wrote:
And TERMINATORS! they are still the most awesome unit GW has ever sculpted (except for some of the glaring armour thickness issues around the thighs)

That and the Shoulder height. BUT WE GET THUNDERHAMMERS!!!!!

I personally enjoy seeing the faces of my opponents when I field ALL of my bikes (even though it is only around 25). All of those TL Bolters and Plasma! The Deathwing bring up some nice detail with all of the Dark angel themed behind it and it is even funnier when I would drop 9 Termies + Belial right behind them Only thing that gets me all worked up about Termies is the fact that they, of all models, only have 1W :(

 Amaya wrote:
Ravenwing or Deathwing. I don't know why you would play Dark Angels to field Tactical Marines unless you were into the "hey guys a long time ago some of were jerks so now we're hunting them down and if anyone finds out we'll all be killed!" and "omg we are the most superty secrety chapter EVAR!1!11!!!" fluff.

Greenwing can field TAC marines for cheaper than any other SM codex and, with the right banner, those marines can fire four bolter shots each/shooting phase. Thats not something to scoff at.

Malik_Raynor wrote:
I like running them in teams of six. Eight TL Plasma + 2 Grenade shots. In CC Your are looking at 20 Corvus Hammer (on 6s Rending) + 4 AP 3 attacks. If this doesn't do the job then most likely you have been unlucky in the "rolling phase' LOL

Do you not think that's too much? I mean, you don't want to kill your opponent outright, or you're going to be sitting there for their shooting phase. Eight plasma shots will deal with pretty much anything anyway.
I feel like Black Knights are limited because they can't not get shot up. Although with their cover save, they should be fine...unless of course the Heldrake makes an appearance.

Which do you think is the best combo for a mostly greenwing army? I've been trying rw to accompany my marines to marginal success, might try dw and see how differently it plays.

In my experiences anything less then 6 Black Knights will shot up by basic bolter fire before being getting to the assault phase. Typically, I have about 3 Black Knights left after taking loads amount of fire. That is the reason I run with a 6 man squad.
Additionally, you can always forgo the shooting phase or decide not to fire all of your plasma shots and stick with the grenades to help lower their chances of survival of in the assault phase. Does this answer your question???

Sort of, but if that's the case, why not just take two squads of three or four? That way your opponent can't tunnel both squads down. It also means you can assault two things.

I suppose it would limit your other FA choices, but do DA players take more than one Dark Shroud?

With bikes, do your opponents react badly if you assault with the base turned to the side? I'm thinking it might be worth taking a larger squad if you can multi-assault things by turning the bases.

I'm asking these questions from a position of ignorance. I've not played DA, but I'm finding I like the look of them more. So my opinions are only based on armchair general guess work.

Dawnofthedoug wrote:
Which do you think is the best combo for a mostly greenwing army? I've been trying rw to accompany my marines to marginal success, might try dw and see how differently it plays.

Spam TAC marines & Devs in the bubble of a CCS with the salvo banner. A pattern like the following should work:

T = TAC marine
D = Dev Marine
C = Company Command Squad marine
B = Banner guy in CCS

TT DD TT TT TT TT DD TT
TT DD TT TT TT TT DD TT
TT DD TT TT TT TT DD TT
TT DD TT TT TT TT DD TT
TT DD TT TT TT TT DD TT
C C B C C

Your bubble should be able to affect all squads, effectively giving you 76 marines with bolters that fire 4 times each any target within 24 inches so long as you don't move. Thats 304 BS4 S4 shots. Prepare to be a rape train.

Edit: It doesn't show it but the B should be in the middle of all those squads.

Also this will have some obvious vulnerabilities to blasts. Spread out if necessary & just keep the guys at the back trailing into the CCS.

Griddlelol
If I took two squads of three or four then yes, the squads would be more effective but then my 3 FA slots would be down to just one. I then at that point would have to chose between a Darkshourd or Jet Fighter. Believe it or not, the Jet Fighter does serve a purpose. It has 10 shots that can do subpar damage and it can handle itself against other flyers. The Darkshourd on the other hand, going up against a good opponent, is only sitting at A10 all around and carries only a HB :( That is a free first blood kill.

I personally have never assaulted with my bikes turned to the side. I'm not sure how they would react or is that even legal??? I was under the impression that if I will combat then I could jump into combat again??? Anyways, once I win combat I would just Hit & Run then get ready for the shooting phase again

I think I have found the perfect Space Marine army so far. This Codex offers the DA to pretty much run any type of 'Wing" with moderate to great success!

So as an update to this thread, I have since played two games with completely different lists with different results.

My first game was against a Tau player with 72 FW and some other Tau devilish things. I ran with a Raven/Green Wing army and we ended up bringing the game to a draw. Wasn't so impressed the Greenwing part so have decided if I do use the Greenwing with the Ravenwing it will be with Drop Pods and Tanks mostly not footslongin Marines

My second game was a complete success and was actually made from a fun stance point-of-view. I went up against MC/Horde Bug army and brought the Death/Raven Wings with me. Leading the charge was no other than Sammual and Belial. I also decided to bring a squad of Company Vets but they again didn't do much even with a drop pod.

So at the end of the day I think I will almost always bring either a Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Death/Ravenwing composition from now on Hope this thread has helped some of you decide how to creatively play with the DA Codex. It sure has been quite fun for me the past couple of months. Cheers Mr. Raynor

Malik_Raynor wrote:
So as an update to this thread, I have since played two games with completely different lists with different results.

My first game was against a Tau player with 72 FW and some other Tau devilish things. I ran with a Raven/Green Wing army and we ended up bringing the game to a draw. Wasn't so impressed the Greenwing part so have decided if I do use the Greenwing with the Ravenwing it will be with Drop Pods and Tanks mostly not footslongin Marines

My second game was a complete success and was actually made from a fun stance point-of-view. I went up against MC/Horde Bug army and brought the Death/Raven Wings with me. Leading the charge was no other than Sammual and Belial. I also decided to bring a squad of Company Vets but they again didn't do much even with a drop pod.

So at the end of the day I think I will almost always bring either a Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Death/Ravenwing composition from now on Hope this thread has helped some of you decide how to creatively play with the DA Codex. It sure has been quite fun for me the past couple of months. Cheers Mr. Raynor

Yep, this sums it up! A fun army.

I was never impressed with Greenwing. I mean, if I wanted more normal Space Marines where Tacticals are key I would play Vanilla or SW. I play DA for the bikes and for the Terminators (which, are my favorite unit. I just love the fluff behind them, and the idea of the best soldiers in the Imperium wearing pretty much indestructible armor was cool. I guess my first tastes of 40k being Space Hulk doesn't help) haha.

Deathwing seems weak on it's own, Ravenwing still seems to me to be the best build, but a Death/Ravenwing combo seems to be fun

 Flinty wrote:
Terminators are awesome, and are made more awesomer with the addition of Ravenwing teleport homers.

I'm going to agree with this and then add my own two cents. Two squads of Tactical marines with Missile Launchers + two deep striking terminator squads with assault cannons makes for a very very scary alpha strike. Against anything, especially gunlines that don't want you in their deployment zone

Ravenwing bikes are just the icing on the cake, letting you race around and ice vehicles with multi meltas and better toughness than your average marine.

People expect terminator's. They don't often expect biker armies, you can use that to your advantage. Plus, relentless twin linked salvo guns...yes yes

Black Knights are Terminators on bikes! By far my favourite unit in the DA Codex.
So with over 150 votes now; Deathwing is still in the lead :/ Followed closely by the covenant Death/Ravenwings. Out of all the new 6th Ed Codexs I think that the Dark Angels have got the most versatile book. Hell even if you did want to play Greenwing you could!
So what is our weakest unit and most powerful unit?
Which army counters ours the hardest?

Great discussions guys