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Yeah, it seems you forgot that Wraiths have Wraithflight which says that they are never slowed by DT. They would still strike at I1, per the FAQ, but are not otherwise affected. Although in the case of the unit with the Destroyer Lords, if you're charging without using their Jump Pack (having used their Jump Packs in the movement phase) then they obviously would be affected by moving through the terrain like normal infantry.

Now, assuming that Destroyer Lord WAS charging without his Jump Pack, the question still remains on turn #2: Should you have to roll for DT in that situation? It is a tough one that nobody can really answer for sure until GW steps up and issues some sort of FAQ. However, my personal take is this: you do take into consideration the MAXIMUM the models are potentially able to move (12" in this case) when determining whether or not they will have to move through DT, because I think this is the only way you can really know for sure.

However, even saying that, your models are still only required to move through DT to fulfill the basic tenants of charging:

1) Must end its move in coherency with an already charged model.
2) Must attempt to contact an enemy model that is not already contacted, or if impossible, into contact with an enemy that has already been contaced.
3) If #2 is impossible, then must move to within 2" of a friendly model that is in contact with the enemy.


Given that your back two models were beyond 12" from the enemy, this means they could not possibly make it into contact with the enemy and therefore they would only have to follow guidelines #1 & #3. And there is absolutely no doubt that they could fulfill both those requirements while moving around the Difficult Terrain, and therefore your unit should NOT have had to roll for DT in that particular case IMHO.

POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Wow! That was a much tougher game than I thought. It was made much tougher by phenomenal saves/dice by both parties. He saved very well with his sabre platforms. I should have probably killed at least 4 out of the 5 units if not for his very good saves. Then at the end, I should have wiped out at least 1 of his guardian jetbike units with 2 gunboats targeting them, but he made every single save there. His seer council was also saving well, though with the Fortune re-roll's, it wasn't as spectacular as his sabre saves. However, I did hit him with a good number of power weapon/rending attacks that he was saving and also making on re-rollable 4++'s.

My wraiths were just superb in making their saves this game, against both his blob squad and his seer council. I swear, if they were any more average, then his seer council would have probably swept my wraithstar long ago and his blob squad should have finished off my wraiths. In my estimate, I was probably making a good 80% of my saves. And then there were my jink saves. Even with 5+ jink saves, I was probably making more than half of them. More importantly, I was making them on my night scythes more than on my annihilation barges. And lastly, I made a bunch of clutch Morale tests with my wraithstar. If I had failed even one, it might have been game over. The mixture of good saves on both of our armies made the game such a low-VP game....we both just couldn't kill anything!

As I've already noted, my opponent made a huge mistake on his deployment. Basically, he negated his only advantage against my flyers with his deployment and boy, did I capitalized on it. To be fair, this is probably only his 2nd or 3rd game with his Eldar/IG build and he is still learning. I think he should have learned a lot from out game.

I felt that I should have dominated this matchup. I have enough tesla weaponry to wipe out his gun platforms and I probably should have had the dice been more average. I don't think I would have wiped out his seer council, but locking them in combat with my wraithstar was something that I was expecting. The second unit of wraiths was supposed to tie up his blob squad, but Overwatch, a failed charge and subsequent IG shooting killed 4 of my wraiths and I had to scratch that plan. Then the last unit of wraiths was supposed to wipe out his entire backcourt, but Grant did a very good job catching them and tying them up in combat with his blob squad.

Lastly was the controversial failed charge between my deathstar wraithstar and his deathstar seer council. I agree with Yakface and that was my reasoning as well. Only the first guy - the initial charger - had to take the shortest route to the closest enemy model. Everyone else was fine until the last 2 models: 1 wraith and my Warlord. However, those 2 were too far away to make it into base contact or even to 2" from a model in base. Thus, they only had to keep coherency and didn't have to go through terrain. But in the heat of battle, I really don't like to waste too much time trying to go through the rulebook so we just made it simple by rolling for it. In the grand scheme of things, however, I don't think it would have made too much of a difference, other than the fact that my immobilized AB may have still been alive.

I think we both ended up learning a lot from this game. I came out really impressed with the sabre defense platforms. They are a really good unit and super resilient as well. I think my opponent learned a lot tactics-wise on how to play against my "type" of army as well as the pitfalls of deployment. In my book, that's a win-win for the both of us.

That is a very nasty Necron build.

If the Destroyer Lord had to pass through DT taking the most direct route into b2b contact then you'd have had to roll for DT. Like I said previously this could have been easily mitigated.

 y0disisray wrote:

 jifel wrote:
How did your opponent justify your wraiths having to move through terrain? I thought wraiths ignored that.

This is correct as they are never slowed down by difficult terrain.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The D Lord was attached.

Two things in that situation...

Move the models such that they do not have to pass through DT, or failing that de-attach the D Lord prior to assault.

Correct.

My argument was that the last 2 models would never be able to get into base or probably even within 2" of someone in base so all they had to do was to move into coherency. They didn't not have to move through terrain to stay in coherency.

But rather than trying to take up too much time going through the BRB and looking up the rules, we thought it much simpler to resolve this with a roll-off.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea his rear D-lord had to go through terrain which slowed the unit. I believe you played it right. Funny he flopped so bad in assault, he needed as many bi8kes as possible in combat with that barge, no way 3 was enough IMO.

He needed at least 7's to glance. With 6 attacks, 3 results is right at average. I felt that he could have probably put 1 more seer council on the tank, but one of the issues was that he would also have to try to base as many models (my wraiths) as his charge move would allowed him.

The problem is that he couldn't get my wraithstar unit to fail any of their saves.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Yuck, so many mistakes this game!

Regardless, I'm interested to see how it plays out. Could end up being a nailbiter. Nice work so far. Seems like his shooting should have done more damage, but I know what it's like.. When Wraith saves are hot, they're HOT.

Yeah, he made a couple of mistakes.

Saves were HOT for both of us. That's a rarity in my games but what can you do? If even 1 side was rolling more average, it might have been a blowout.

MarkyMark wrote:
Arent Dlords jump pack? so can ignore terrain tests if they use his JP in assault phase, just taking a DT for himself?. If not or if you used your JP move in movement then yes you should be testing for difficult terrain, the difficult terrain says if one model has to move through terrain, so as long as th Dlord has to go through terrain test should be made.

Now the interesting question, as one model has gone through terrain, would the whole squad be striking at I 1 as they have no 'nades, or would the wraiths ignore terrain rule mean they still go at I 2?. Matters if they are armed with whip coils or going up against TH or power fists.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Wraiths ability to ignore terrain only affects movement. They'll swing at I1 no matter what. No special rules override that currently.

Correct.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Heh. Good to see that seer council tarpitted. I loathe that thing.

Yeah, I despise all things eldary.

The seer council can be just downright nasty, especially if they get the right psychic powers. However, this particular is not as good because they can get bogged down by certain units (particularly the ones with 2+ saves).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Haha, the best is when you remove it's hit and run with zandrekh and then tarpit it, quite humorous to see the opponents aggrivation.

Great report JY2 sonofgrant seems like a very good player but just can't get over the hump that is your crons. I have the same problem with a SW/GK player at my FLGS. No matter what I do I just can't squeak anything better than a draw haha.

I wonder if you had adjusted the rear wraiths to not have to go through terrain how this would have worked out. Man those sabers are NASTY with that T7 haha. Despite not doing a ton in this game they just appear so powerful because of their durability. But your right not spreading them out more have you a great lane to not get intercepted.

The seer council doesn't have Hit & Run unless they ally in the Baron from Dark Eldars. But unless you have 2+ save units or ATSKNF, you have to risk getting swept because they can take away your Fearlessness with Terrify.

Grant is ok, though he does make mistakes at times. And in each of our games so far, I have capitalized on them. However, his army is very good and a very tough army to fight against. I'm probably more like your SW/GK friend, not that I run the same army, but because most people just have a hard time trying to beat me.

Yeah, sabre platforms, like any artillery, is just such a pain in the rear to try to shoot down. Statistically speaking, I should have enough firepower to do so, but he was just making his saves. Him not spreading out his sabres was because he was trying to fit as many of them as possible to within 6" of his Commissar Lord in order to use his LD10 bubble. One of the weaknesses of the sabres is their low LD. He was also trying to use as much 4+ cover as he could, though against an army like mine, it didn't really help him.

 JGrand wrote:
Your opponent's deployment was just awful. Bunched up units and weapon platforms, the aforementioned blind spot, and of course, not breaking up his blob. Seriously, he could have created speed bumps of 10 Guardsmen. When Wraiths overkill them, he would effectively gain another chance to shoot them down. The single blob was a slow grind that he was doomed to lose.

I also think that this battle shows exactly why the Seer Council needs a hit and run character. It is far too easy to tarpit them.

Finally, I do think that Sabre Platforms are a bit OP. With good deployment and play, you take a beating against this list. I think that while every army should have access to something like the Sabres, they should not have interceptor.

Well, we were playing Victory Points so that it would make sense for him to blob up. Offensively, this would make sense as well for FRF!SRF! purposes. His deployment was a mistake but I think he has learned that in this game. I think he forgot about tesla arcing, but I didn't have any blast weapons so he probably felt it was safe to bunch up.

I agree with the seer council needing the Baron for H&R. I actually told my opponent that I liked his Deldar build better because of H&R.

If I had not been making my jink saves, who knows, my opponent might have won. Those twin-linked lascannons on such a resilient platform are nasty! Yes, they are a very good unit. However, bring a horde army and they become a non-factor so it is a delicate balancing act with regards to how many platforms you should bring in your army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 yakface wrote:

Yeah, it seems you forgot that Wraiths have Wraithflight which says that they are never slowed by DT. They would still strike at I1, per the FAQ, but are not otherwise affected. Although in the case of the unit with the Destroyer Lords, if you're charging without using their Jump Pack (having used their Jump Packs in the movement phase) then they obviously would be affected by moving through the terrain like normal infantry.

Now, assuming that Destroyer Lord WAS charging without his Jump Pack, the question still remains on turn #2: Should you have to roll for DT in that situation? It is a tough one that nobody can really answer for sure until GW steps up and issues some sort of FAQ. However, my personal take is this: you do take into consideration the MAXIMUM the models are potentially able to move (12" in this case) when determining whether or not they will have to move through DT, because I think this is the only way you can really know for sure.

However, even saying that, your models are still only required to move through DT to fulfill the basic tenants of charging:

1) Must end its move in coherency with an already charged model.
2) Must attempt to contact an enemy model that is not already contacted, or if impossible, into contact with an enemy that has already been contaced.
3) If #2 is impossible, then must move to within 2" of a friendly model that is in contact with the enemy.


Given that your back two models were beyond 12" from the enemy, this means they could not possibly make it into contact with the enemy and therefore they would only have to follow guidelines #1 & #3. And there is absolutely no doubt that they could fulfill both those requirements while moving around the Difficult Terrain, and therefore your unit should NOT have had to roll for DT in that particular case IMHO.

I agree, and that was my reasoning as well.

NoArmorSave wrote:
That is a very nasty Necron build.

Yeah, it is a really competitive tournament build that I run. I only use it upon request right now, or if I want to test out how competitive one of my armies are. My philosophy is this - if you can beat my necrons, then your army has what it takes to win a tournament.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If the Destroyer Lord had to pass through DT taking the most direct route into b2b contact then you'd have had to roll for DT. Like I said previously this could have been easily mitigated.

Agreed, with the caveat being if they can even make it into B2B, which they couldn't. And getting to within 2" of someone within B2B may require you to move through terrain that is in your way, but that isn't necessarily a case of have-to-move-through-the-shortest-path.

 jy2 wrote:
Lastly was the controversial failed charge between my deathstar wraithstar and his deathstar seer council. I agree with Yakface and that was my reasoning as well. Only the first guy - the initial charger - had to take the shortest route to the closest enemy model. Everyone else was fine until the last 2 models: 1 wraith and my Warlord. However, those 2 were too far away to make it into base contact or even to 2" from a model in base. Thus, they only had to keep coherency and didn't have to go through terrain.

Very interesting outcome. I'd agree on your analysis of deployment issues - if you're going to spend that many points on Interceptor weapons, it's important to blanket the field with them. Terrain wasn't his friend there - he wanted nice, tall ruins to use, and that led him to castle-up in one corner. Trust the Aegis! It's why it's there!

On the charge:

40k Errata wrote:Page 22 ¬ Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.
Change the first sentence to read “If, when charging, one or
more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

It's not just the first model who has to take the shortest route. That said, if it is literally impossible to reach the enemy with a given model, I don't see a requirement to go through terrain.

Hmm... I have a question, which I might have to shuffle across to YMDC. But at the moment I'm more interested in how you played it:

 jy2 wrote:

... each glance on a vehicle counts towards combat resolution. Moreover, each pen counts as double! So this is his plan. Terrify takes away my wraithstar's Fearlessness. Then multi-assault, putting the majority of the hits on the vehicle, and watch my wraiths lose combat by a lot. Then his I5/6 eldar should be able to very easily sweep my I2 necrons.

The assault rules state that wounds in excess of the model's wounds characteristic don't count for determining combat results. Do you impose a similar limit on vehciles and their remaining hull points, or do you just let all the glances and pens count towards the result?

 DexKivuli wrote:

The assault rules state that wounds in excess of the model's wounds characteristic don't count for determining combat results. Do you impose a similar limit on vehciles and their remaining hull points, or do you just let all the glances and pens count towards the result?

Seeing as you resolve hits one at a time in 6th edition, once the vehicle has suffered enough damage to wreck it (or it explodes) then there is nothing left to resolve any further hits against, meaning it is impossible to get further glancing or penetrating hits.

So the rules for vehicles kind of take care of that issue on their own, IMHO.

So I suppose you should roll the dice in groups until the vehicle is finally snuffed. At best you could roll three non destructing pens for the equivalent of 6 wounds, correct?

 Janthkin wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Lastly was the controversial failed charge between my deathstar wraithstar and his deathstar seer council. I agree with Yakface and that was my reasoning as well. Only the first guy - the initial charger - had to take the shortest route to the closest enemy model. Everyone else was fine until the last 2 models: 1 wraith and my Warlord. However, those 2 were too far away to make it into base contact or even to 2" from a model in base. Thus, they only had to keep coherency and didn't have to go through terrain.

Very interesting outcome. I'd agree on your analysis of deployment issues - if you're going to spend that many points on Interceptor weapons, it's important to blanket the field with them. Terrain wasn't his friend there - he wanted nice, tall ruins to use, and that led him to castle-up in one corner. Trust the Aegis! It's why it's there!

On the charge:

40k Errata wrote:Page 22 ¬ Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.
Change the first sentence to read “If, when charging, one or
more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

It's not just the first model who has to take the shortest route. That said, if it is literally impossible to reach the enemy with a given model, I don't see a requirement to go through terrain.

Yeah, sometimes you have to resist the urge to always deploy into cover. Other factors - such as LOS-blocking terrain, lanes of fire and maximum threat coverage - also need to be taken into consideration.

The Errata does make a difference in how assaults are performed, but I agree that you don't have to go through terrain if you can't make it into combat with the enemy (either base or to 2" of a model in base).

 DexKivuli wrote:
Hmm... I have a question, which I might have to shuffle across to YMDC. But at the moment I'm more interested in how you played it:

 jy2 wrote:

... each glance on a vehicle counts towards combat resolution. Moreover, each pen counts as double! So this is his plan. Terrify takes away my wraithstar's Fearlessness. Then multi-assault, putting the majority of the hits on the vehicle, and watch my wraiths lose combat by a lot. Then his I5/6 eldar should be able to very easily sweep my I2 necrons.

The assault rules state that wounds in excess of the model's wounds characteristic don't count for determining combat results. Do you impose a similar limit on vehciles and their remaining hull points, or do you just let all the glances and pens count towards the result?

 yakface wrote:

 DexKivuli wrote:

The assault rules state that wounds in excess of the model's wounds characteristic don't count for determining combat results. Do you impose a similar limit on vehciles and their remaining hull points, or do you just let all the glances and pens count towards the result?

Seeing as you resolve hits one at a time in 6th edition, once the vehicle has suffered enough damage to wreck it (or it explodes) then there is nothing left to resolve any further hits against, meaning it is impossible to get further glancing or penetrating hits.

So the rules for vehicles kind of take care of that issue on their own, IMHO.

I agree. However, we kind of played it wrong and he rolled all the damage results together. Thus, if you get 2 pens and 2 glances, which ones would happen first? I guess in this case, you just have to roll 1 damage result at a time.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So I suppose you should roll the dice in groups until the vehicle is finally snuffed. At best you could roll three non destructing pens for the equivalent of 6 wounds, correct?

Sounds about right. However, what if the first pen wrecks the vehicle? This may require enquiring within YMDC.

 jy2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So I suppose you should roll the dice in groups until the vehicle is finally snuffed. At best you could roll three non destructing pens for the equivalent of 6 wounds, correct?

Sounds about right. However, what if the first pen wrecks the vehicle? This may require enquiring within YMDC.

I think Yak is right, the rules are the rules, and that's what they say. I was discussing it with some mates, and if you are really trying to game the system, you're best placed to have a high S, bad AP weapon in CC to try and maximise the number of points you get for combat resolution. On a 3 hull point vehicle, 3 pens at AP - are actually better than 3 pens at AP1.

That said, it will very rarely matter. It only really comes in to play when you're multi-combating a vehicle and another unit.

Nasty Necron list. Nice BATREP.

@jy2- I didn't quote as that post was huge lol. I know 3 results is average sorry if it wasn't clear, I meant 3 models was not enough to dedicate to that AB. Not sure he could get more but if possible he should have.

 Red Corsair wrote:
@jy2- I didn't quote as that post was huge lol. I know 3 results is average sorry if it wasn't clear, I meant 3 models was not enough to dedicate to that AB. Not sure he could get more but if possible he should have.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was kicking himself after that 1st round of battle and with hindsight, he would have probably put more guys on it.

But from what Yak said, that might have been overkill since the hits are done one at a time and once the vehicle is wrecked, excess hits are wasted, meaning that he shouldn't have gotten more than 2 damage results from it (since it was already immobilized and only had 2 HP's left).

Congrats beating Eldar + IG using Necrons.

When both players rolls extremely well for saves, that's when First Blood, Line Breaker, and Slay the Warlord really counts.

Excellent battle report! Love the table as well.

This whole battle.....yikes. I stopped reading turn three.

Cron player. You have a million fliers, quit worrying about a couple crap anti air. Having one tiny safe area to come in is what I would want to do to that army. I'm dictating to you rather then you just flying in.

Guard player.....deployment dude. Griffons on the end? Asking for outflank. Blobs all right up next to each other? Put one normal Commissar with the blobs and take the lord in a nice building with the hws.

Ignore the damn eldar, he managed to pull like a quarter or third of your army in the wrong direction. He was going to reach you first on those bikes. May as well do it in his table quarter.

Good report. Poor tactics.