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2013/03/21 21:51:04
Subject: 2K Competitive Cheddar-wing Necrons vs Imperial Guard Seer Council w/Sabre Platforms! (Completed)
Coming up later today, someone has challenged my ultra-competitive not-for-casual-play Necron cheese-wing. He is practicing for the 2K Broadside Bash and he wanted to play against a very competitive Necron flyer build. I was happy to oblige as I rarely use my wraithwing tesla-crons anymore, at least not in casual play. So it's my wraithwing with 4 flyers against his Seer Council and guards with perhaps the ultimate Forge World anti-everything weapons platform - the Sabre Platform.
I am going to show you that it is a myth that necrons fear all the anti-air firepower of Forgeworld. Yes, they are good against flyers and most other units. However, what you are playing against isn't just a flyer army. Rather, it is a very strong and balanced Take-All-Comer's Necron army that will destroy all in its path.
Now I hope I don't have to eat my words later on....
So there is this feeling in the air. A feeling that I find strange. People seem to be under the impression that Forgeworld will somehow invalidate flyer armies. To a degree, it is somewhat true. Forgeworld, with all its anti-air options, will help to level out the playing field in terms of discouraging armies that are over-reliant on their flyers. Most of the people seem to believe that this means the death of Necron Air. I say that it only hurts unbalanced necron builds that rely on necron flyers as the foundation of the army. But if you bring a balanced necron army - an army such as my wraithwing tesla-crons (or wraithwing scythe-crons) - then don't believe the hype. A balanced necron army can still give these armies trouble. If you think my army relies solely on its flyers to carry the day, then you are sorely mistaken. Despite the very good Sabre Defense Platforms that my opponent is bringing - which by the ways he is testing in preparation for the Broadside Bash in San Diego - I think his eldar-IG army will still have problems in this matchup.
My opponent for the day is Grant (aka SonsofGrant) and his seer council-blob squad Eldar/Imperial Guards army. I played against him just recently in several practice games for the Bay Area Open:
Back then, he brought Eldar + Dark Eldar and they made a great team. That was one tough list to play against, but my victory against it with my necrons showed the real weakness of his army - the inability to deal with flyers. Now he's gone to the opposite extreme. He's allied his eldar with an IG army with Forgeworld units that is very good against flyers. The question now is....can it also deal with the ground threat that my army presents?
I think he needs to play a mistake-free game in order to beat my necrons. Make even one mistake and I will make him pay. Without the Baron in his list now, I can very easily tie up his deathstar with my wraiths. This will leave the rest of my army to deal with his blob squad and gun platforms and that, I think I should be able to handle. I think sabre gun platforms are good against flyers....but my army isn't just about flyers. He's going to find out just how balanced my army is and difficult it will be to play against.
I get some useless Warlord trait. He gets -1 to my reserve rolls.
For psychic powers, farseer #1 keeps his stock powers - Doom and Fortune. The other farseer #2 trades them in for Telepathy powers - Mental Fortitude, Puppet Master, Terrify and Hallucination. Terrify is the power I need to watch out for. I can't afford to let him multi-assault one of my barges and a terrified wraith unit.
Necron deployment.
Eldar-IG deployment. Of course, he puts his guardian jetbikes in reserves.
Overview of our deployment.
Already, I see 1 crucial mistake in my opponent's deployment. He did not spread his sabre platforms far enough. This is probably because he wants them to be in his Lord Commissar's Leadership bubble, but it is going to come back and bite him. There is a "blind spot" where my flyers should be able to come in out of harm's way of his sabre platforms.
My opponent tries to seize the initiative but fail.
Annihilation barges snap-shot at a lascannon platform....and my opponent makes every single save but 1!
Tesla arc does kill 4 guardsmen from his blob squad though.
Wraiths then run.
Eldar + Guards 1
Spoiler:
Seer council casts Fortune and Mental Fortitude on itself. They are too far away to cast any of their malediction psychic powers (and Doom).
Seer council moves on up. Guardsmen get closer to their aegis line.
Guardsmen fail to First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! (FRF!SRF!). They still manage to kill 1 wraith and put 1W on another (non-Warlord unit).
Sabre platforms manage to penetrate 1 annihilation barge (AB) and immobilize it.
Seer council then turbo-boosts to the corner.
So far, both of our shooting phases have been duds. That's actually better for me, however.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
Ok, this turn can potentially make it or break it for me.
Like I said, my opponent messes up on his deployment. 2 scythes come in from reserves (despite the -1 on my Reserve rolls) and out of range of his Interceptor guns.
Wraiths go after his seer council. My Warlord joins the unit.
The rest of my army advances.
Wraiths have a number of juicy multi-charge targets.
Here is my plan. Tie up his seer council with my wraithstar. Tie up his blob squad with 1 unit of wraiths. Then my last wraith will rampage through his sabre platforms and everything else back there. If everyone goes according to plan, this game should end early.
My shooting kills 1 sabre platform and its 2 crew. They would pass morale because the are in range of his Lord Commissar.
I also kill 1 of his autocannon platforms and the crew, who are not within range of his Commissar Lord, runs off the table, thus giving me First Blood.
Eldar/IG: 0, Necrons: 1
Then disaster strikes. First of all, we have a debate on whether my wraiths would have to take a difficult terrain test. The front wraiths are ok, but the last wraith and my Warlord may have to go through difficult terrain, depending if they have to move in a straight line or not. BTW, they (my last 2 models in the unit) are more than 12" away. So we roll off and I lose. Thus, I would have to take a difficult terrain check. Overwatch kills 1 wraith and I then fail my charge.
More disaster! Wraiths, who are about 5-6" away, fail their charge as well!
Finally, Overwatch by his blob squad kills 2 wraiths, which then puts me about 11-12" away. Having to charge through difficult terrain (his aegis line), naturally I fail this assault as well.
So I am 0 for 3 charges. Next turn could very well be disastrous. My wraithstar is near my immobilized AB. His seer council is going to Terrify them and set up a multi-charge against my barge and the unit, hoping to sweep that unit in combat....that would be 3 VP's and Warlord if he can do it! Then my middle wraith unit is going to have to survive his blob squad's FRF!SRF! shooting. Now the tides have turned. Next turn could be make it or break it for my opponent!
Eldar + Guards 2
Spoiler:
Uh oh....this may hurt. Seer council casts Fortune, Doom, Mental Fortitude and Terrify. He's going to multi-assault my wraithstar and AB.
Now why is it going to hurt? Because each glance on a vehicle counts towards combat resolution. Moreover, each pen counts as double! So this is his plan. Terrify takes away my wraithstar's Fearlessness. Then multi-assault, putting the majority of the hits on the vehicle, and watch my wraiths lose combat by a lot. Then his I5/6 eldar should be able to very easily sweep my I2 necrons.
If he can do that, he can potentially get 4 VP's in 1 go (2x destroyer lords, wraiths and AB) AND my Warlord!!! That could be game over right there!
2 jetbike units come in. They go after my wraiths.
Griffins put 1W on my wraiths only. Guardian jetbikes do nothing to them.
Blob squad FRF!SRF! onto my middle wraiths. They take out another 2.
Sabre platforms then fire at my 2 AB's, glancing one of them and blowing away the tesla-destructor on the other (as well as taking away its quantum shielding).
Now for the moment that I dread. His warlock issues a challenge. I accept. However, I make a mistake and accept with my non-Warlord Destroyer Lord. I should have accepted with my Warlord instead because I am planning to use the other D-lord as a wound soaker.
Grant puts 3 warlocks on the immobilized AB. They will auto-hit.
His jetbikes then jump back in the Assault phase.
I don't know how I survived, but I did!
6 auto-hits on my AB - he gets 2 glances and 1 pen to wreck it. However, he fails to hurt my wraithstar and I kill 2 warlocks so he only wins by 2. I then pass my morale on an 8!
Eldar/IG: 1, Necrons: 1
Talk about a break! That is lady luck evening up the dice after I failed my 3 charges last turn.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
1 more night scythe comes in.
The other 2 goes after his gun platforms. Time to kill me some sabres!
I decide to preserve my unit of 2 wraiths. They move back behind the center terrain.
1 barge goes after his sabres. The other one - the one without its main gun and quantum shielding - moves back 12" to deny my opponent a VP as well. It would then move flat-out behind terrain to get out of my opponent's LOS.
Those damn sabre platforms! I just can't kill them all. I wipe out another 1 gun platform and put 1W on another. Tesla arcs and kill 3 more guardsmen as well as put 1W on the quad-gun.
Wraiths multi-charge the autocannon sabre platform and guardian jetbikes....
....and wipe out both.
Eldar/IG: 1, Necrons: 3
He kills another wraith in assault and I fail to get through any of his Fortuned saves. I lose by 2 again! Fortunately, my wraiths pass their LD yet again.
Eldar + Guards 3
Spoiler:
My opponent needs to stop my unit of wraiths. If he doesn't, I am going to clear out his entire backfield. His blob squad manages to move 6" through terrain. Now he will have to make a 6" charge (at least) through difficult terrain.
Griffons and jetbikes move away from my wraiths.
1 lascannon shoots down 1 scythe. My other scythe makes its jink save against his other lascannon.
Eldar/IG: 2, Necrons: 3
Griffons fire at my unit of 2 wraiths but I make my saves.
His blob squad makes the charge!
I actually win combat this time. The space elves pass their morale.
Finally, despite about 25 attacks, I roll well on my saves and only lose 1 wraith. In return, the wraiths kill 4 guardsmen.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
Last flyer comes in as does the crew from the destroyed night scythe.
Flyer movement. I make sure to always move my AB to get the jink save.
Wraiths and AB continue to retreat.
Night scythe snap-fires at his griffons. I roll 4 's!!!
I destroy both griffons. The explosion also kills 1 biker.
Eldar/IG: 2, Necrons: 4
Those sabre platforms sure are hard to kill, especially when my opponent is making most of his saves. The night scythe and AB combine to only kill 1 lascannon platform.
Tesla arcs into my wraiths and kill 1!!!
In combat, the seer council wins and downs my Warlord. However, I would again pass morale.
My Warlord would then get back up!
In the wraith-blob combat, I roll well once again on my saves. 29 attacks only put 1W on my wraiths and I kill 7 more guardsmen in return.
Eldar + Guards 4
Spoiler:
His last unit of jetbikes come in. Both bike squads turbo-boost to the other side of the board (with the wraithstar-seer council battle).
Sabre platforms fire at my scythes. I believe both hit and I make both of my cover saves.
So it's off to combat we go. I believe we tie combat (or my opponent may have won by 1). I drop 1 warlock and he drops my Warlord.
He would not get back up. My opponent gets Slay the Warlord.
Eldar/IG: 3, Necrons: 4
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
I expect to clinch it this turn. Scythe goes after his bikers. AB can either target his bikers or sabre platforms.
My other 2 scythes go after his sabres.
Wraiths and AB move back. Warriors move into terrain. They should be more than safe here.
I then fire 1 night scythe and the AB into his bikers and 2 night scythes into his sabre platforms.
He would make every single save!!!
In combat, the seer council kills another wraith. Fortunately for me, I just cannot fail a morale test.
His blob squad is running lower and lower.
Eldar + Guards 5
Spoiler:
My opponent turbo-boosts his jetbikes back to his deployment zone to get away from my scythes.
However, I think my opponent forgot about Linebreaker. But it would turn out that what he forgot is that we were playing Vangard Strike instead of Dawn of War. He thought that his seer council was claiming Linebreaker already.
He kills a wounded wraith and I kill 2 guardsmen.
The wraith-seer council combat would be a draw once again.
My opponent then rolls to see if the game would continue. It would not.
I am currently winning in 4-3 in VP's. My opponet has only got Warlord. I've got First Blood (Autocannon sabre platform) and Linebreaker (wraiths in combat with his blob squad).
Wow! That was a much tougher game than I thought. It was made much tougher by phenomenal saves/dice by both parties. He saved very well with his sabre platforms. I should have probably killed at least 4 out of the 5 units if not for his very good saves. Then at the end, I should have wiped out at least 1 of his guardian jetbike units with 2 gunboats targeting them, but he made every single save there. His seer council was also saving well, though with the Fortune re-roll's, it wasn't as spectacular as his sabre saves. However, I did hit him with a good number of power weapon/rending attacks that he was saving and also making on re-rollable 4++'s.
My wraiths were just superb in making their saves this game, against both his blob squad and his seer council. I swear, if they were any more average, then his seer council would have probably swept my wraithstar long ago and his blob squad should have finished off my wraiths. In my estimate, I was probably making a good 80% of my saves. And then there were my jink saves. Even with 5+ jink saves, I was probably making more than half of them. More importantly, I was making them on my night scythes more than on my annihilation barges. And lastly, I made a bunch of clutch Morale tests with my wraithstar. If I had failed even one, it might have been game over. The mixture of good saves on both of our armies made the game such a low-VP game....we both just couldn't kill anything!
As I've already noted, my opponent made a huge mistake on his deployment. Basically, he negated his only advantage against my flyers with his deployment and boy, did I capitalized on it. To be fair, this is probably only his 2nd or 3rd game with his Eldar/IG build and he is still learning. I think he should have learned a lot from out game.
I felt that I should have dominated this matchup. I have enough tesla weaponry to wipe out his gun platforms and I probably should have had the dice been more average. I don't think I would have wiped out his seer council, but locking them in combat with my wraithstar was something that I was expecting. The second unit of wraiths was supposed to tie up his blob squad, but Overwatch, a failed charge and subsequent IG shooting killed 4 of my wraiths and I had to scratch that plan. Then the last unit of wraiths was supposed to wipe out his entire backcourt, but Grant did a very good job catching them and tying them up in combat with his blob squad.
Lastly was the controversial failed charge between my deathstar wraithstar and his deathstar seer council. I agree with Yakface and that was my reasoning as well. Only the first guy - the initial charger - had to take the shortest route to the closest enemy model. Everyone else was fine until the last 2 models: 1 wraith and my Warlord. However, those 2 were too far away to make it into base contact or even to 2" from a model in base. Thus, they only had to keep coherency and didn't have to go through terrain. But in the heat of battle, I really don't like to waste too much time trying to go through the rulebook so we just made it simple by rolling for it. In the grand scheme of things, however, I don't think it would have made too much of a difference, other than the fact that my immobilized AB may have still been alive.
I think we both ended up learning a lot from this game. I came out really impressed with the sabre defense platforms. They are a really good unit and super resilient as well. I think my opponent learned a lot tactics-wise on how to play against my "type" of army as well as the pitfalls of deployment. In my book, that's a win-win for the both of us.
This message was edited 24 times. Last update was at 2013/03/26 05:23:40
You are playing 2k point game, whether or not you are at 2k points the game is agreed to be 2k points so I would say yes you can do dual force org.
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
2013/03/21 22:32:16
Subject: 2K Jy2's Hyper-Competititive Cheddar-wing Necrons vs Imperial Guard Seer Council w/Sabre Platforms!
MarkyMark wrote: You are playing 2k point game, whether or not you are at 2k points the game is agreed to be 2k points so I would say yes you can do dual force org.
I would tend to agree with you. Looking forward to this game!
2013/03/21 23:27:27
Subject: Re:2K Jy2's Hyper-Competititive Cheddar-wing Necrons vs Imperial Guard Seer Council w/Sabre Platforms!
Looking to see how the game goes, I dislike almost everything about the Necrons, so no offense, but I would like the necrons to get their tin heads kicked in. Now that being said, it is not too likely with an old codex like Eldar. Even a Seer council with 2 farseers - 1 with invisibility and one with regular powers - esp fortune will not be able to deal with all the flyers. However if he has other jetbike units he will be fast and able to cap or contest objectives easy like you. Look forward to report.
Armies
Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Eldar Corsairs, Orks, Tyranids, Genestealer Cult, Chaos, Choas Space Marines, Tau, Sisters of Battle, Inquisition, Necrons, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Ad Mech, Knights, Skaven, Sylvaneth
2013/03/21 23:29:01
Subject: 2K Jy2's Hyper-Competititive Cheddar-wing Necrons vs Imperial Guard Seer Council w/Sabre Platforms!
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: 6 Wraiths is probably better than another AB though, Necrons win in any case.
Well, my original list had 17 wraiths and 4 barges. The single-FOC list has 18 wraiths and 3 barges. Both lists are still very strong, but IMO, the double-FOC will prove to be the stronger list due to its extra shooting.
Now here is the real question...did the IG person actually buy that many FW sabre platforms or did he convert them? If he bought them then good god he will show up in a potato sack.
I like the lists looks like an interesting match up.
2013/03/24 19:24:48
Subject: 2K Jy2's Hyper-Competititive Cheddar-wing Necrons vs Imperial Guard Seer Council w/Sabre Platforms!
ansacs wrote: Now here is the real question...did the IG person actually buy that many FW sabre platforms or did he convert them? If he bought them then good god he will show up in a potato sack.
I like the lists looks like an interesting match up.
He's proxying them in our game. I think he still has time to convert some heavy weapon platforms to sabre platforms, or perhaps the tournament will allow his proxied/converted sabre platforms. I don't know, and I don't care. I just want to face an army that will give my crons a challenge.
Yeah, I can't take his army lightly even if I feel that my army can handle it. I won't under-estimate the capabilities of those platforms. At the same time, almost any army will have problems against 18 wraiths led by 2 destroyer lords!
Out of curiosity, how could the Sabres pen and immobilize one of your Annihilation Barges? I thought that autocannons would only be able to glance it, due to Quantum Shielding.
EDIT: Nevermind, noticed that some of them are lascannons. Great report so far, looking forward to the rest!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/24 21:59:43
Yea his rear D-lord had to go through terrain which slowed the unit. I believe you played it right. Funny he flopped so bad in assault, he needed as many bi8kes as possible in combat with that barge, no way 3 was enough IMO.
Regardless, I'm interested to see how it plays out. Could end up being a nailbiter. Nice work so far. Seems like his shooting should have done more damage, but I know what it's like.. When Wraith saves are hot, they're HOT.
Arent Dlords jump pack? so can ignore terrain tests if they use his JP in assault phase, just taking a DT for himself?. If not or if you used your JP move in movement then yes you should be testing for difficult terrain, the difficult terrain says if one model has to move through terrain, so as long as thDlord has to go through terrain test should be made.
Now the interesting question, as one model has gone through terrain, would the whole squad be striking at I 1 as they have no 'nades, or would the wraiths ignore terrain rule mean they still go at I 2?. Matters if they are armed with whip coils or going up against TH or power fists.
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
2013/03/25 13:11:38
Subject: 2K Competitive Cheddar-wing Necrons vs Imperial Guard Seer Council w/Sabre Platforms! (Completed)
MarkyMark wrote: , or would the wraiths ignore terrain rule mean they still go at I 2?.
Wraiths ability to ignore terrain only affects movement. They'll swing at I1 no matter what. No special rules override that currently.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2013/03/25 14:35:51
Subject: 2K Competitive Cheddar-wing Necrons vs Imperial Guard Seer Council w/Sabre Platforms! (Completed)
Haha, the best is when you remove it's hit and run with zandrekh and then tarpit it, quite humorous to see the opponents aggrivation.
Great report JY2 sonofgrant seems like a very good player but just can't get over the hump that is your crons. I have the same problem with a SW/GK player at my FLGS. No matter what I do I just can't squeak anything better than a draw haha.
I wonder if you had adjusted the rear wraiths to not have to go through terrain how this would have worked out. Man those sabers are NASTY with that T7 haha. Despite not doing a ton in this game they just appear so powerful because of their durability. But your right not spreading them out more have you a great lane to not get intercepted.
2013/03/25 23:38:24
Subject: Re:2K Competitive Cheddar-wing Necrons vs Imperial Guard Seer Council w/Sabre Platforms! (Completed)
Your opponent's deployment was just awful. Bunched up units and weapon platforms, the aforementioned blind spot, and of course, not breaking up his blob. Seriously, he could have created speed bumps of 10 Guardsmen. When Wraiths overkill them, he would effectively gain another chance to shoot them down. The single blob was a slow grind that he was doomed to lose.
I also think that this battle shows exactly why the Seer Council needs a hit and run character. It is far too easy to tarpit them.
Finally, I do think that Sabre Platforms are a bit OP. With good deployment and play, you take a beating against this list. I think that while every army should have access to something like the Sabres, they should not have interceptor.
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