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 RogueMage wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 RogueMage wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The answer, of course, is Tentacles.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter!

Alex Trebek: A poster with an anime avatar mentions tentacles and intrigues a Slaaneshi poster.

Me: What are things that make me want to play Tentacle Bento?

Back on-topic: It seems to me there's a good probability that there is a "Warhammer 4k" or similar deep in the mysterious pre-M30 timeline of this franchise. We know there we massive wars in those days. And we know that humanity spread throughout the galaxy.

lol nice....now what the heck is Tentacle Bento?...or would I rather not know?

I have no idea... but I was making a reference to Shoggoth on the Roof.

Governments always withold advanced technology from public view for as long as possible. They could read the date off a coin with satelites in the 50s. etc etc

Chances are people wanted to keep any new technology to themselves, so it was kept secret and not used widely and could have easily added a lot of time to the widespread development.

 Fifty wrote:

 Kerrathyr wrote:
Well after then the Emperor decides times was due to reunite all mankind again, but in the while each colony grew independent, becoming "the world" and keeping memory of Terra as a myth... (Horus Heresy mild spoiler below)

Spoiler:

This, in part, explains why in "Horus Rising" the legion of Luna Wolves goes on "Terra" and Horus slays their "Emperor": they assumed to be the original terrans and not some colonists and were therefore unwilling to comply.

Where on Earth do you get that idea from? The legions were primarily stocked originally from Earth, and only later recruited from the Primarch's homeworlds...

I did not write about where legions came from, I'm well aware that they were first recruited from Earth and - after finding a Primarch - from each homeworld(s)...

I wrote this:
1 - Earth (aka: Terra) colonist went galaxy-wide
2 - following some non well described events, technology (and history records) are partly lost. Tech must be re-discovered (but there is fear, for technology brought the disaster)
3 - Slaanesh birth generates immense warp storms - colonies are cut from Old Earth
4 - Years-decades-centuries of "galactic isolation" transforms stories about Terra into myth
5 - Some planets deform the stories and believe themseves to be 'on Terra' and some even gain their 'emperor'
6 - during Great Crusade the Emperor (capital E) or (a bit later) his legions go to colonies to demand compliance
7 - terra-colony does not submit to Terra-earth
8 - the legion attacks the terra-colony
9 - more or less: we are here around the first chapter of Horus Rising

Those ideas come from the timeline and HH books (as far as I did not misread... anything is possible, although improbable )

McFlabbergasty wrote:
thousands of years to develop advanced genetic engineering,

What are you talking about?

McFlabbergasty wrote:
I know the obvious answer is grimdark far future yada yada yada, but I've wondered if there is an in-universe reason that it took mankind thousands of years to settle the Solar System, thousands of years to develop advanced genetic engineering, thousands of years to resolve the Age of Strife conflicts on Terra, etc etc. I understand before the warp drive was invented, humans could only go to other star systems by riding on generation ships, but even with that being the case, it seems like humanity was taking its sweet time building outposts throughout the Solar System (full of potential colonization sites that are right next door to Earth in the galactic scheme of things).

So basically, why couldn't Warhammer 40,000 be Warhammer 4,000? It seems like there are a lot of years where nothing really happens. Did they shut down the patent office or something?

It didn't take thousands of years to settle the Sol system. It took thousands of years to expand across the galaxy. That because space is big, really big. Really, really, really big. Settling that vast expanse of space pre astronomicon was difficult and slow.

The Age of Strife lasted so long because of all the warp storms which cut the human planets off from one another and made space travel all but impossible. Coupled with psychers appearing for the first time and it's no surprise so many worlds fell into barbarism and conflict.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yes, but 10,000 years has nothing to do with it.

He's talking about the 28,000 years between now and the Great Crusade.

The answer, of course, is Tentacles.

What, you mean the 28,000 years when humanity colonised and terraformed worlds across the galaxy, became transhumans, designed technologies so advanced that they're barely known about let alone understood in the 30-40K timeline, and created an entire race of sentient machines? I think they did pretty well for themselves frankly, particularly when you consider that there were a lot more powerful alien races around in the galaxy before the Emperor's xenocidal Great Crusade, and that 5 - 6,000 of those years were the Age of Strife.

Also, the Solar System evidently was colonised; there was a human civilisation on Mars, two around Saturn(the Ringers and the Saturnine Polity), the unnamed society that inhabited some or all of the moons of Jupiter who were enslaved by xenos during Old Night, and Neptune was evidently made suitable for human habitation at some point as the Emperor's armies had to wipe out the mutated-beyond-redemption populace when he began the Great Crusade.

Yep, those 28,000 years.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yep, those 28,000 years.

And?

foxyfennec wrote:
Governments always withold advanced technology from public view for as long as possible. They could read the date off a coin with satelites in the 50s. etc etc

Chances are people wanted to keep any new technology to themselves, so it was kept secret and not used widely and could have easily added a lot of time to the widespread development.

That's laughable. The first satellite was put into orbit in 1957.
When new technology is made, there's a scramble to get the IP and then start making money for it as fast as possible. In fact a lot of copy rights are registered before the tech is even at the prototype stage. That doesn't fit with hiding things from the public. Materials science and tech is open access like all sciences.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yep, those 28,000 years.

And?

I... really don't know why you keep bringing this up. The post you're trying to tear apart was clarifying the purpose of the thread for another poster. I wasn't making any stances or statements. Are you trying to drag me into another pointless tangent discussion?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yep, those 28,000 years.

And?

I... really don't know why you keep bringing this up. The post you're trying to tear apart was clarifying the purpose of the thread for another poster. I wasn't making any stances or statements. Are you trying to drag me into another pointless tangent discussion?

Oh! I apologize then. I wasn't actually arguing with you. I myself was asking of clarification. We misunderstood or more like I misunderstood you. I wasn't trying to drag you into anything. IIRC, I haven't gotten into a discussion with you at all before this.

 Kerrathyr wrote:
There have been... accidents, so to speak:

Between M3 (now) and the Great Crusade (M31): mankind lost great part of historical and scientific records, crossing (at least) a second dark age. Only the Emperor (who was already there) knows...
Highly probable that this was caused by a major war.

Then the slowly reconstruction, the expansions "to boldly go where no man has gone before"...

Then Slaanesh is born and this causes warp storms.

Well after then the Emperor decides times was due to reunite all mankind again, but in the while each colony grew independent, becoming "the world" and keeping memory of Terra as a myth... (Horus Heresy mild spoiler below)

Spoiler:

This, in part, explains why in "Horus Rising" the legion of Luna Wolves goes on "Terra" and Horus slays their "Emperor": they assumed to be the original terrans and not some colonists and were therefore unwilling to comply.

You've got your timeline a bit mixed up there. The warp storms start about the time the Eldar enter their descent full swing: some ten thousand years before their fall and the birth of Slaanesh.



It should also be noted that the warp storms didn't completely block warp travel: the Adeptus Mechanicus, founded in that time period to escape the wars on Terra and preserve what technology remained at the time, also founded basically every forgeworld then too. They sent out colonisation vessels through calm spots or during momentary lulls, and these went on to found forgeworlds and conquer vassal worlds to supply them with resources. This goes a long way to explaining why each forgeworld is so protective of its knowledge, often refusing to share any data or schematics with other forgeworlds.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yep, those 28,000 years.

And?

I... really don't know why you keep bringing this up. The post you're trying to tear apart was clarifying the purpose of the thread for another poster. I wasn't making any stances or statements. Are you trying to drag me into another pointless tangent discussion?

Oh! I apologize then. I wasn't actually arguing with you. I myself was asking of clarification. We misunderstood or more like I misunderstood you. I wasn't trying to drag you into anything. IIRC, I haven't gotten into a discussion with you at all before this.

I guess I'm pretty forgettable next to Melissia and Lynata. ^^;

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 Kerrathyr wrote:
There have been... accidents, so to speak:

Between M3 (now) and the Great Crusade (M31): mankind lost great part of historical and scientific records, crossing (at least) a second dark age. Only the Emperor (who was already there) knows...
Highly probable that this was caused by a major war.

Then the slowly reconstruction, the expansions "to boldly go where no man has gone before"...

Then Slaanesh is born and this causes warp storms.

Well after then the Emperor decides times was due to reunite all mankind again, but in the while each colony grew independent, becoming "the world" and keeping memory of Terra as a myth... (Horus Heresy mild spoiler below)

Spoiler:

This, in part, explains why in "Horus Rising" the legion of Luna Wolves goes on "Terra" and Horus slays their "Emperor": they assumed to be the original terrans and not some colonists and were therefore unwilling to comply.

You've got your timeline a bit mixed up there. The warp storms start about the time the Eldar enter their descent full swing: some ten thousand years before their fall and the birth of Slaanesh.



It should also be noted that the warp storms didn't completely block warp travel: the Adeptus Mechanicus, founded in that time period to escape the wars on Terra and preserve what technology remained at the time, also founded basically every forgeworld then too. They sent out colonisation vessels through calm spots or during momentary lulls, and these went on to found forgeworlds and conquer vassal worlds to supply them with resources. This goes a long way to explaining why each forgeworld is so protective of its knowledge, often refusing to share any data or schematics with other forgeworlds.

This be correct.

Timeline is essentially this:

Deathwatch core rulebook pg 290 wrote:THE AGES OF HUMANITY

1st to 5th Millennia—The Age of Terra
Humanity dominates Earth. Civilisations rise and fall. The Solar System is colonised. Mankind lives
on Mars and the moons of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune.

15th to 18th Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
Mankind begins to colonise the stars using sub-light spacecraft. At first only nearby systems can be
reached and the colonies must survive as independent states since they are separated from Earth by up
to ten generations of travel.

18th to 22nd Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
The invention of the warp drive accelerates colonisation of the galaxy. Federations and empires are
founded. The first aliens are encountered and the first Alien Wars are fought. The first human psykers
are scientifically proven to exist and begin to appear throughout the human worlds.

22nd to 25th Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
The first Navigators are born, allowing human spaceships to make even longer, quicker warp jumps.
Mankind enters a golden age of enlightenment as scientific and technological progress accelerates.
Human worlds unite and non-aggression pacts are secured with dozens of alien races.

25th to 26th Millennia—The Age of Strife
Terrible warp storms interrupt interstellar travel. Sporadic at first, the storms eventually prevent any
warp jumps being made. The incidence of human mutation increases rapidly and Mankind enters a
dark period of anarchy and despair.

26th to 30th Millennia—The Age of Strife
Human worlds are ripped apart by civil wars, revolts, alien predation and invasion. Human psykers and
other mutants dominate some worlds and these rapidly fall prey to warp creatures, leaving Humanity
on the brink of extinction.

30th Millennium—The Great Crusade
Earth is conquered by the Emperor and enters an alliance with the Mechanicum of Mars. The warp
storms finally abate and interstellar travel is possible again. The Emperor builds the Astronomican and
creates the Space Marine Legions. Human worlds are reunited by the Emperor in a Great Crusade that
lasts for two hundred years.

31st Millennium—The Horus Heresy
Warmaster Horus, the Emperor’s most beloved gene-son, turns upon those he was sworn to serve and
leads one third of Humanity’s hosts against Earth. The Emperor faces his erstwhile servant in single
combat. The Master of Mankind is victorious, yet suffers such horrific wounds that only his ascension
to the life-sustaining Golden Throne can save him. The Age of the Imperium begins.

31st to 41st Millennia—The Age of the Imperium
Humanity is bound within the organisations and societies of the Imperial administration. The
Emperor’s life is only maintained by the arcane workings of the Golden Throne and continuous human
sacrifice. Imperial servants work for the furtherance of Humanity and its survival against the myriad
perils that threaten to destroy it. Psykers and the horrors of warp space are controlled by the vigilance
of the Inquisition, planetary commanders, and other Imperial servants. Psykers continue to emerge
in ever greater numbers. Anarchic, anti-governmental and predatory groups associated with warp
creatures and alien domination are steadily gaining power in spite of every effort to suppress them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yep, those 28,000 years.

And?

I... really don't know why you keep bringing this up. The post you're trying to tear apart was clarifying the purpose of the thread for another poster. I wasn't making any stances or statements. Are you trying to drag me into another pointless tangent discussion?

Oh! I apologize then. I wasn't actually arguing with you. I myself was asking of clarification. We misunderstood or more like I misunderstood you. I wasn't trying to drag you into anything. IIRC, I haven't gotten into a discussion with you at all before this.

I guess I'm pretty forgettable next to Melissia and Lynata. ^^;

Once again I put my foot into my mouth. I do remember chatting with you on threads. I don't remember what we specifically talked about though . What I meant by my last sentence, which on renewed reading is not what I had actually wanted to say, is that I don't think I've ever gotten into an argument or long discussion with you.

So GW doesnt incur the rage of fanboys whose armies got decimated in the fluff.

One of the main things that has held back exploration of our solar system isn't so much that the technology isn't there, because arguably the same technology that put man on the moon could be scaled up to put man on mars, its simply that the cost in resources is prohibative (or its incredibly environmentally unsound, like Nuclear pulse propulsion) . It's never been that we cant do it, its just not cost effective to. Technology is advancing quickly now and given the number of private ventures investing in space exploration currently, its probably going to be practical in our lifetime to put people on other planets.

Even then, its easier, and cheaper to put robots on other planets rather than incur the massive expense, not to mention danger, of a manned mission, look at what the curiosity rover is achieving on mars, for example. but there are several projects being undertaken by private companies, as well as governments to establish settlements on mars in the next 20-25 years. mars one in 2023 ish, the chinese plan a mars mission in the next 10-15 years, and the USA plans them by the 2030's. even if they all get launched, or only one of them, thats still going to be 60 years since mankind landed on the moon, and that was more a political stunt than anything else.

Given that our modern world is generally percieved to be more dynamic and vibrant, and progressive than the 40k universe, it it takes us 60 years to make the short trip to mars, then how much longer will it take us to go further? say to the outer planets, or even on a generation ship to another planet?

The technology for a generation ship exists today, simply put it would likely be an o'neil cylinder with a Nuclear pulse drive. it would be a massive undertaking, probably the largest single engineering project in history, but certainly technologically achievable (if a little expensive..). Given that journeys on such ships would take hundreds of years, and the cost involved, unless something drastic happens, there isn't much incentive to do so, particularly when there would be no return on the investment other than the warm fuzzy feeling of getting to other solar systems. it wouldnt make any appreciable impact if you tried to reduce the planets population, not unles you were building dozens, or even hundreds of mile long spacecraft.

Most FTL drives in science fiction either use short cuts (warp drive, hyper drive, jump drive) to bend space or use alternate dimensions. Now if that were to happen, and a short cut was found, then you wouldn't need a generation ship, or a massive spacecraft, all you would need is a spacecraft with the engine on it, and that would be far, far cheaper, far smaller, and far far more practical. missions might still take months, if not years for a return trip, but that is far and away faster than a 200 year one way trip to go 5 lightyears.

40k has such engines, and many many 'cheats' to facilitate FTL travel, warp drive being the main one, the webway being another, necrons have superluminal drives. and it would only be after these drives are discovered that space travel would become cost effective, fast, and colonisation would be achievable. 40k has humanity on millions of worlds, across the galaxy, that is a monumental achievement, and is by no means slow. if anything its a little fast given it was achieved in a little under 8,000 years

As for why it took so long for Humans to get to the point they were at when everything fell apart in the Dark Age of Technology:

Imperial records are spotty at best about things that happened at all before the Great Crusade. Hell, half of the knowledge of the Great Crusade itself has been lost to myth. Who's to say that humanity had a single solid and stable galactic civilization all the way from the current real-world date of M2 until the birth of Slaanesh?

Maybe there's been several incarnations of humanity's galactic civilization building to it's height and then stagnating, only to begin anew? Even given the massive time-frame that it took humanity to build itself up out of the ashes from the Great Crusade in M31 until M41, that could have happened 3 other times between M2 and M41.

Well I am sure the whole outline of the timeline was invented by R. Priestly and some friends drinking beer and writing notes on a napkin when he was coming up with Rogue Trader.

Probably people are over analyzing things a bit.

Like much of 40k's general background, it's exaggeration.

The human mind, generally speaking, has a poor understanding of timescales beyond a few months or years; centuries and millenia is just "a long time," the numbers cease to have much impact. 40k is a supposed to be a very stagnant setting, and completely detached from today, thus the time scale. It's not terribly realistic, but it leaves no room for doubt just how bloody messed up the time period is.

Well, with the minor exception of 999 M41, that's a bloody busy year.