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Yeah, I have MLs on my dreads for fluff reasons, but you'd be better off having tlac instead just for the rate of fire if nothing else.

Ok, so if we ignore the ML, what would be a good layout for a Venerable Dreadnought that will be with a unit of GH hanging back roughly mid-field to provide some AT, some fire support, but also to take objectives while the rest of my army is assaulting?

Assault Cannon/TL LC?

Assault Cannon/AC?

AC/TLLC?

I personally run my vanilla Venerable with a DCCW/PC as the higher bs makes for a bit less scatter. Sometimes the AC for rending but usually the plasma cannon.

Can't SW use riflemen dreads? Just use those.

We get regular Dreads, and Venerable. That's it.

Riflemans just means 2 tl Autocannons, which is considered to be the most versatile loadout for long range.

I see, well in that case, yes they do!

Rifleman Dreads are pretty cool. I always feel cheated when I see a GK list with Str:8 versions though.

Seems like a nasty build, and I hear others talking about it a lot. Once I can work the Dreads in, I'll have to try it. I think it would be great with GH to support it if things do manage to get too close.

Yes, the GK basically have auto-krak missile launchers. For anti-vehicle work, certainly. As AP 4 and AP 3 are the same vs a vehicle. Why doesn't GW have the same group/author write the codices again? So we don't get things like the GK codex?

I think GK is a fairly balanced codex right now. Sure it has some issues, but less so than guard or necrons.
The thing that bugs me about guard is that the main over-powered unit fills a role that nothing else in the codex can. In GK there's nothing like that. Just lots of annoying little things that are better than you can get in other SM codices. They do pay a decent amount for them though.

I sorta lump the GK in with the Guard and Necrons; but you are right that in practice, they have fewer issues than the Guard or Necrons.

I think dreads are pretty heavily meta based. I usually take just one hellbrute with dreadnought CCW with heavy flamer and multimelta. Tends to do enough damage with the melta to make the enemy want to tarpit them. They hold up a lot better in CC than everyone on dakkadakka acts. Plus if you hurt a helbrute, at least they get to go insane for a turn and really pour on the pain. The key, to me at least, is to keep them versatile and use them to run interference. I usually do things like run him next to my cultist squads or marines and use him when you need a bit of extra punch to even out the fight.

I agree they hold up better in CC than is usually assumed. Krak grenades are one attack, hit on 4+, glance on 4+ usually. But the issue is getting said dread into CC.

Martel732 wrote:
I agree they hold up better in CC than is usually assumed. Krak grenades are one attack, hit on 4+, glance on 4+ usually. But the issue is getting said dread into CC.

Krack grenades are S6. So hitting on a 4+ (generally) and glancing on a 6, one attack a model. Should take a dozen guys to strip a HP off in a turn. Unless you are mangled before heading into CC, you should have a round or two of fighting, depending on how the dice are feeling. And smaller squads might just do nothing to you in a round.

Now you are only going to be crushing about one guy a round in CC unless you get lucky, so odds are you are better off shooting. Unless you are tying up something important.

OH right. I totally jelloheaded that math. They glance on a SIX. So that makes it much, much worse.

That's unsurprising, and a bit of a relief. Got a soft spot for Dreads.

it goes along with my experience though. I did a lot of reading prior to starting the game, much of it here. I really thought my vehicles would be like so many bubbles ready to burst but it just isn't the case so far. Even despite some less than intelligent moves, my Land Speeder has fared relatively well in the games I've used it, as far as surviving. My Rhino/Razorback got popped in my first game, but that was a rough one anyway and has done well ever since.

No reason to believe Dreads should be any different, as long as one doesn't go charging them across the field like a maniac. Unless it's a Helbrute...

I understand your wish not to spam Dreads, I really do... but there's a home truth to why people do. The alternative is to take enough other things with Armour Values, so in a sense you're spamming vehicles and not just Dreads in particular (which it sounds like you're doing already, so well done).
If you change this and only take the Dreadnought, every high Strength weapon the opponent has will want to shoot at that Dreadnought asap and smack it straight down. It's a waste throwing lascannons at basic infantry and it's an easy kill point AND potentially an easy First Blood point as well. So you're either losing it early, or wasting it by being tucked away in your deployment zone trying to keep it out of sight.

Taking them in drop pods is a great idea, particularly with a multimelta or twin-linked lascannon (with the latter, make sure you get behind your target of course). You do still have to be careful where you put that pod though, or it's still just another easy kill point. Ideally you want it so that the pod blocks line of sight or gives you cover against everything else except your target. Unfortunately I don't think a pod is an option for Bjorn in particular.

...have you considered taking 2? It's not exactly spamming but still gives you some decent redundancy.

I certainly understand the point of taking multiples, as I am with thanks. So multiple Dreads as you point out would be no different.

I guess it boils down to figuring out in my head what constitutes spamming in a derogatory sense. Target/Threat saturation isn't quite the same.

Spamming is often also associated with taking the identical thing multiple times. Taking 3 rifleman dreads would be spamming. Taking a MM one in a drop pod, an AC/DCCW walking across the table, and a 2xTLAC hiding behind an ADL would not be spammy. Same number of dreads, but worlds apart from how it feels.

Mixing things up, even using the same unit, prevents cries of spam. At least in my opinion.

I run two Dreads in almost all of my lists above 1500.
I always use a Rifleman (2x TL-AC) and then either a TL-LC/ML or an Ironclad. I, like you, abhor spamming, so I may use two Dreads, but they have different enough uses that to call them spammed is laughable.

I love Dreadnoughts fluff-wise so I like to field them. They all come with spotlights and smoke launchers too, which can be situationally useful. Shooting based Dreads can move 6" and shoot with full BS and can be placed in terrain (buildings, ruins, hills, etc) that normal vehicles can't be placed in to gain great LoS and cover saves.

The Rifleman is just rock solid for 125pts. The twin linked auto cannons are reliable for putting wounds on anything that is less than AV13. With 48" range, the Dread can always shoot something, but isn't a huge enough threat to warrant a huge amount of retaliatory fire. This guy is a firebase unit, he sits back and shoots.

The TL-LC/ML Dread has proven more useful than I would have thought. I'd have run him with a TL-AC instead of the ML if I had the model, but I don't, so I used the ML and found it pleasantly effective. Don't get me wrong, ML's in general aren't stellar, but the ability to ID many things as well as bypass armor saves and have a +1 str against armor is something to consider. The TL-LC is a great too for my particular list. I have used it to ID a number of units including HQ's and other characters. The near guaranteed str9 ap2 hit on armor has also proved quite useful. Coupled with the ML, this Dread is my heavy hitting scalpel. The 145pt price tag is a bit steep, but as I mentioned, if I am not fielding my Ironclad, I won't hesitate to field this Dread.

Ironclad. An AV13 behemoth. The quintessential combat oriented Dreadnought. I use the SH+MG/DCCW+HF with Assault Launchers in a pod with a beacon. This guy has one shotted a Land Raider first turn (among other vehicles), plastered other CC oriented Dreads in combat, wiped entire squads with his flamer and ensuing charge, slowly ground through two or three squads over the course of a game, and generally imposed my will onto the opponent. Dropping him turn 1 onto a weaker flank unit or onto a piece of armor I want to die has always ALWAYS affected my opponents game plan. Keep him away from melta and don't foolishly give your enemy a rear armor shot (both surprisingly easy to accomplish) and the Ironclad will not go down without a fight. The best use is to drop the Ironclad onto a unit who has no real way to deal with him, then laugh and watch as the heretics and xenos flee before his fury.

My most general and basic Dreadnought advice would be this:

They need to be part of a force with existing armor saturation.
A Dread with little other armor to support it, or weak armor that leaves the Dread as the highest threat, will end with your Dread dying quickly and uneventfully.
A Dread that is part of a force with appropriate armor saturation and other threats that are more pressing than the Dreadnought, will be a Dread that brings the pain.

The problem with taking shooty dreads with SWs is that LFs generally do it better and can't be one shotted. 4 MLs is better than 4 ACs, even TL, due to Split Fire. And assault dreads are pathetic thanks to no frags and AV 12- Lone Wolf is much better.

I love my SW dread models, but they are currently shelf fodder.

That makes sense. I like the sounds of those loadouts. In my current list, popping my LR early like that would create major problems, potentially devastating.

This is all very good info. I made a promise to stick to my current list before I start trying other things. I can't wait to start working out Dread strategies. The Ironclad sounds really nasty. I don't know why SW can't take them.

I usually field a dread with AC/HF, parked preferably in cover near my Dev Squad. Gets a shot down range every turn and is there to soak up a drop pod squad aiming to kill my Devs and their flakk missiles.For his cheap pt cost, he is effective in protecting them for a turn or two.

 jmurph wrote:
The problem with taking shooty dreads with SWs is that LFs generally do it better and can't be one shotted. 4 MLs is better than 4 ACs, even TL, due to Split Fire. And assault dreads are pathetic thanks to no frags and AV 12- Lone Wolf is much better.

I love my SW dread models, but they are currently shelf fodder.

I don't think that 4 ML is better than 4 ACs in 6th edition, even with split fire. If I had a SW army, I still wouldn't use MLs. They suck in the hands of anyone, I don't care how cheap they are.

LF can be nasty, but IMO you HAVE to genuinely spam them. For that reason, and the fact that any SW list discussion usually devolves into requiring LF, is why I don't include them in my main list. Plus, I like armor.

As for Dreads, prepare for noobness, what makes ML so terrible? Or is it a bit of an exaggeration? Similarly, what makes AC so great by comparison?

The ML is bad because both of its ammunition types lack efficacy. STR 8 AP 3 ROF 1 is basically a very slow way to strip HP, since you need a "6" to explode a vehicle. By contrast, most vehicles that can be effectively stripped by STR 8 can be stripped fast by STR 7 ROF 2. Sure, the krak missile can pop power armor, but who cares? You've got plasma AND melta for that. Plus teqs laugh at krak missiles.

The frag missile just kinda sucks.Small template and only STR 4. Even guardians and guardsmen get saves against it. You have to really mass ML up against hordes to any any effect, and that leaves you vulnerable to AV 13 and AV 14.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
LF can be nasty, but IMO you HAVE to genuinely spam them.

I disagree. I've ran a list that took me to 3rd in a tournament with only 1 squad of Long Fangs. The other HS slots were filled by two Vindicators. Also in a doubles tournament I don't touch Long Fangs.
However, they are really good and really points efficient. Their lack of ablative wounds is their major problem in the current meta filled with Heldrakes though.

Edit: I also feel this word "spam" has got too many negative connotations, when in essence, "spamming" long fangs is bringing a whole 3 squads. When I open my mail box and see 3 unwanted emails it's not so much spam, when I see 30 then it's a lot more like spam.

Martel732 wrote:The ML is bad because both of its ammunition types lack efficacy. STR 8 AP 3 ROF 1 is basically a very slow way to strip HP, since you need a "6" to explode a vehicle. By contrast, most vehicles that can be effectively stripped by STR 8 can be stripped fast by STR 7 ROF 2. Sure, the krak missile can pop power armor, but who cares? You've got plasma AND melta for that. Plus teqs laugh at krak missiles.

The frag missile just kinda sucks.Small template and only STR 4. Even guardians and guardsmen get saves against it. You have to really mass ML up against hordes to any any effect, and that leaves you vulnerable to AV 13 and AV 14.

That makes sense.

Griddlelol wrote:

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
LF can be nasty, but IMO you HAVE to genuinely spam them.

I disagree. I've ran a list that took me to 3rd in a tournament with only 1 squad of Long Fangs. The other HS slots were filled by two Vindicators. Also in a doubles tournament I don't touch Long Fangs.
However, they are really good and really points efficient. Their lack of ablative wounds is their major problem in the current meta filled with Heldrakes though.

Edit: I also feel this word "spam" has got too many negative connotations, when in essence, "spamming" long fangs is bringing a whole 3 squads. When I open my mail box and see 3 unwanted emails it's not so much spam, when I see 30 then it's a lot more like spam.

I suppose my disinclination to using them is also partly to many people insisting that they're a must, and the only effective option. I'll be honest, I've only ever seen them used that way with their lack of ablative wounds being given as the reason why. I suppose there's no real reason they couldn't work mixed in with other Heavy Support options. I'll have to experiment with it, I like the sounds of it. A 'mixed' list would also keep more models in rotation.

As far as the word 'spam' goes, I at least intend it to be negative, similar to cheese (though I think Logan lists earn the title of cheese in a less negative connotation). It's all relative though, three LF units is all you CAN take, and if they're all the same, even if it is effective and point efficient, I think 'spam' applies.

That being said, I don't fault anyone for using them that way. It's effective. Also, I'm just trying to find info on different ways people use Dreadnoughts effectively which doesn't have much to do with LF.

Since 6th, I've stopped taking all three with all ML, just isn't effective anymore.