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RegalPhantom wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

It's also not entirely about cost. It's about business practice and GW's asinine marketing and logic (if any) -- the fact that they will stop at nothing to force customers to spend extra money is ridiculous. I get they are a business and need to make money, but there are much better ways to go about it. The last 2 months have been my line in the sand with the Death From The Skies compendium, to the NA trade policy and finally the cancelling of open play in GW stores. It's almost like they WANT to go out of business.... /rant

I'm glad I'm not the only one leaving the game because of their business practices. The prices were part of what got me to look at Warmahordes, but what really did it in for me was their new trade policies restricting online sellers and hurting local stores. That, combined with their low standard for their rules, the rising costs, and the a rampant imbalance were the death blow to GW for me. Also, if I may ask, when did they cancel open play in their stores? I admit I haven't payed any attention to GW since February, but still that is quite surprising that they don't let people play their games in their stores (if I'm interpreting that correctly).

Hmm I can't find the thread.....It's possible that I either misread it or it was simply a rumor, but they had copied what looked to be an e-mail from GW about it....

 NickTheButcher wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

It's also not entirely about cost. It's about business practice and GW's asinine marketing and logic (if any) -- the fact that they will stop at nothing to force customers to spend extra money is ridiculous. I get they are a business and need to make money, but there are much better ways to go about it. The last 2 months have been my line in the sand with the Death From The Skies compendium, to the NA trade policy and finally the cancelling of open play in GW stores. It's almost like they WANT to go out of business.... /rant

I'm glad I'm not the only one leaving the game because of their business practices. The prices were part of what got me to look at Warmahordes, but what really did it in for me was their new trade policies restricting online sellers and hurting local stores. That, combined with their low standard for their rules, the rising costs, and the a rampant imbalance were the death blow to GW for me. Also, if I may ask, when did they cancel open play in their stores? I admit I haven't payed any attention to GW since February, but still that is quite surprising that they don't let people play their games in their stores (if I'm interpreting that correctly).

Hmm I can't find the thread.....It's possible that I either misread it or it was simply a rumor, but they had copied what looked to be an e-mail from GW about it....

i dont think open play is not allowed just not encouraged, as they want a table or so for demo games etc.

Now i am also a new WM player, not defecting from 40k as well iv got a bit of it and still enjoy the game... the battle box will give you a good general insight into the game, but after doing some talking to people i have found that WM really will cost roughly the same as 40k ( yes the BRB and army books are cheaper) initial get in cost is WAY down on 40k or WHFB, but once your neck deep.... you'll be looking at around 100 pts in models ( so that you can freely swap between various different options) and its still not cheap. again i am still new and if people want to refute the 100pts idea please do so.... my break down for how it goes would be

30 pts main army, allow 20 for side-boarding extras for free swapping, a few casters cos only running 1 might get tedious (unless you want to proxy and thats all good) then extra models for say,, ahh i want to run this differently so i want x rather than y this game so say about another 30-40 pts then if your mad keen you have the colossal etc....

that ofcourse unless you just run a net list of "this is awesome and the only things i will ever buy" then well you can keep your costs low....

Just this week. The thread on it is still active in the News and Rumors forum.

Did it get moved to N&R? It was in Dakka Discussions. Regardless it was a single GW store stating no more open gaming last I saw, not a new company wide policy.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

It's also not entirely about cost. It's about business practice and GW's asinine marketing and logic (if any) -- the fact that they will stop at nothing to force customers to spend extra money is ridiculous. I get they are a business and need to make money, but there are much better ways to go about it. The last 2 months have been my line in the sand with the Death From The Skies compendium, to the NA trade policy and finally the cancelling of open play in GW stores. It's almost like they WANT to go out of business.... /rant

I'm glad I'm not the only one leaving the game because of their business practices. The prices were part of what got me to look at Warmahordes, but what really did it in for me was their new trade policies restricting online sellers and hurting local stores. That, combined with their low standard for their rules, the rising costs, and the a rampant imbalance were the death blow to GW for me. Also, if I may ask, when did they cancel open play in their stores? I admit I haven't payed any attention to GW since February, but still that is quite surprising that they don't let people play their games in their stores (if I'm interpreting that correctly).

Hmm I can't find the thread.....It's possible that I either misread it or it was simply a rumor, but they had copied what looked to be an e-mail from GW about it....

i dont think open play is not allowed just not encouraged, as they want a table or so for demo games etc.

Now i am also a new WM player, not defecting from 40k as well iv got a bit of it and still enjoy the game... the battle box will give you a good general insight into the game, but after doing some talking to people i have found that WM really will cost roughly the same as 40k ( yes the BRB and army books are cheaper) initial get in cost is WAY down on 40k or WHFB, but once your neck deep.... you'll be looking at around 100 pts in models ( so that you can freely swap between various different options) and its still not cheap. again i am still new and if people want to refute the 100pts idea please do so.... my break down for how it goes would be

30 pts main army, allow 20 for side-boarding extras for free swapping, a few casters cos only running 1 might get tedious (unless you want to proxy and thats all good) then extra models for say,, ahh i want to run this differently so i want x rather than y this game so say about another 30-40 pts then if your mad keen you have the colossal etc....

that ofcourse unless you just run a net list of "this is awesome and the only things i will ever buy" then well you can keep your costs low....

I feel the difference is that for 40k, you are not getting something because you think it would be fun or you want to try it out. You are getting something because you must, because its the new meta or because something feels unplayable without getting that thing

To stress the point further, when you want to try something new, you usually only need to buy $30~$50 of new models and it often feels very different, on the other hand for 40k when you want to dip into something new, you usually need to buy multiples of the thing for it to work, easily hitting you for $100~200, even more in some lists. The only exception is usually Grey Knights, but that isn't saying much

Spending $300~400 in WM/H makes you feel like you have dozens of potential lists to try out, Spending $300~400 in 40k makes you feel like you might have just enough for a 1500 pt game, if you stretch out your list and get garbage upgrades you don't need

 Talamare wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

It's also not entirely about cost. It's about business practice and GW's asinine marketing and logic (if any) -- the fact that they will stop at nothing to force customers to spend extra money is ridiculous. I get they are a business and need to make money, but there are much better ways to go about it. The last 2 months have been my line in the sand with the Death From The Skies compendium, to the NA trade policy and finally the cancelling of open play in GW stores. It's almost like they WANT to go out of business.... /rant

I'm glad I'm not the only one leaving the game because of their business practices. The prices were part of what got me to look at Warmahordes, but what really did it in for me was their new trade policies restricting online sellers and hurting local stores. That, combined with their low standard for their rules, the rising costs, and the a rampant imbalance were the death blow to GW for me. Also, if I may ask, when did they cancel open play in their stores? I admit I haven't payed any attention to GW since February, but still that is quite surprising that they don't let people play their games in their stores (if I'm interpreting that correctly).

Hmm I can't find the thread.....It's possible that I either misread it or it was simply a rumor, but they had copied what looked to be an e-mail from GW about it....

i dont think open play is not allowed just not encouraged, as they want a table or so for demo games etc.

Now i am also a new WM player, not defecting from 40k as well iv got a bit of it and still enjoy the game... the battle box will give you a good general insight into the game, but after doing some talking to people i have found that WM really will cost roughly the same as 40k ( yes the BRB and army books are cheaper) initial get in cost is WAY down on 40k or WHFB, but once your neck deep.... you'll be looking at around 100 pts in models ( so that you can freely swap between various different options) and its still not cheap. again i am still new and if people want to refute the 100pts idea please do so.... my break down for how it goes would be

30 pts main army, allow 20 for side-boarding extras for free swapping, a few casters cos only running 1 might get tedious (unless you want to proxy and thats all good) then extra models for say,, ahh i want to run this differently so i want x rather than y this game so say about another 30-40 pts then if your mad keen you have the colossal etc....

that ofcourse unless you just run a net list of "this is awesome and the only things i will ever buy" then well you can keep your costs low....

I feel the difference is that for 40k, you are not getting something because you think it would be fun or you want to try it out. You are getting something because you must, because its the new meta or because something feels unplayable without getting that thing

To stress the point further, when you want to try something new, you usually only need to buy $30~$50 of new models and it often feels very different, on the other hand for 40k when you want to dip into something new, you usually need to buy multiples of the thing for it to work, easily hitting you for $100~200, even more in some lists. The only exception is usually Grey Knights, but that isn't saying much

Spending $300~400 in WM/H makes you feel like you have dozens of potential lists to try out, Spending $300~400 in 40k makes you feel like you might have just enough for a 1500 pt game, if you stretch out your list and get garbage upgrades you don't need

i played a 1500 pt 40k game with 1 character 5 models in HS, 2 squads of 7 a squad of 10.... so i think 40k is getting blown slightly out of proportion here,,,,, and thats not 400$ worth of models... and 30$ of new models for Wm is 1 group of units? and that doesnt make that much difference...... the bolded bit above i will go with, but again thats the "entry" cost really for the first 3-400 you are now in a position to make plenty of lists.... Then you can fine tune and add more like you do 40k till you spend LOTS. and lets be honest here 1 new squad for either format is in the 30-40 region.

again im not here defending 40k. im new to WM and im seeing both sides here. and am more than happy to be corrected..

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

It's also not entirely about cost. It's about business practice and GW's asinine marketing and logic (if any) -- the fact that they will stop at nothing to force customers to spend extra money is ridiculous. I get they are a business and need to make money, but there are much better ways to go about it. The last 2 months have been my line in the sand with the Death From The Skies compendium, to the NA trade policy and finally the cancelling of open play in GW stores. It's almost like they WANT to go out of business.... /rant

I'm glad I'm not the only one leaving the game because of their business practices. The prices were part of what got me to look at Warmahordes, but what really did it in for me was their new trade policies restricting online sellers and hurting local stores. That, combined with their low standard for their rules, the rising costs, and the a rampant imbalance were the death blow to GW for me. Also, if I may ask, when did they cancel open play in their stores? I admit I haven't payed any attention to GW since February, but still that is quite surprising that they don't let people play their games in their stores (if I'm interpreting that correctly).

Hmm I can't find the thread.....It's possible that I either misread it or it was simply a rumor, but they had copied what looked to be an e-mail from GW about it....

i dont think open play is not allowed just not encouraged, as they want a table or so for demo games etc.

Now i am also a new WM player, not defecting from 40k as well iv got a bit of it and still enjoy the game... the battle box will give you a good general insight into the game, but after doing some talking to people i have found that WM really will cost roughly the same as 40k ( yes the BRB and army books are cheaper) initial get in cost is WAY down on 40k or WHFB, but once your neck deep.... you'll be looking at around 100 pts in models ( so that you can freely swap between various different options) and its still not cheap. again i am still new and if people want to refute the 100pts idea please do so.... my break down for how it goes would be

30 pts main army, allow 20 for side-boarding extras for free swapping, a few casters cos only running 1 might get tedious (unless you want to proxy and thats all good) then extra models for say,, ahh i want to run this differently so i want x rather than y this game so say about another 30-40 pts then if your mad keen you have the colossal etc....

that ofcourse unless you just run a net list of "this is awesome and the only things i will ever buy" then well you can keep your costs low....

I feel the difference is that for 40k, you are not getting something because you think it would be fun or you want to try it out. You are getting something because you must, because its the new meta or because something feels unplayable without getting that thing

To stress the point further, when you want to try something new, you usually only need to buy $30~$50 of new models and it often feels very different, on the other hand for 40k when you want to dip into something new, you usually need to buy multiples of the thing for it to work, easily hitting you for $100~200, even more in some lists. The only exception is usually Grey Knights, but that isn't saying much

Spending $300~400 in WM/H makes you feel like you have dozens of potential lists to try out, Spending $300~400 in 40k makes you feel like you might have just enough for a 1500 pt game, if you stretch out your list and get garbage upgrades you don't need

i played a 1500 pt 40k game with 1 character 5 models in HS, 2 squads of 7 a squad of 10.... so i think 40k is getting blown slightly out of proportion here,,,,, and thats not 400$ worth of models... and 30$ of new models for Wm is 1 group of units? and that doesnt make that much difference...... the bolded bit above i will go with, but again thats the "entry" cost really for the first 3-400 you are now in a position to make plenty of lists.... Then you can fine tune and add more like you do 40k till you spend LOTS. and lets be honest here 1 new squad for either format is in the 30-40 region.

again im not here defending 40k. im new to WM and im seeing both sides here. and am more than happy to be corrected..

It depends on the unit. I just grabbed a unit of Widowmakers for $17. From what I've read, they work in almost any Khador list and this will probably be the only unit of them that I have to buy.
A unit of Winterguard -- yes is $40, BUT again, I will probably only need 1. In 40K I'm looking at the same price for 10 Tac marines and I'll need at least 3 of them for a 1500 point game.

At the same time -- both of these units will fit well with just about any list I try to make.

Same can be shown for Warcasters. I bought a second Warcaster (Butcher) for $12. The last HQ I bought for 40k (Vulkan) was $20

Now -- I'm not up to 35 points yet, but so far I've got:

2 Player Battle Box - $43, (sold the other half)
The Butcher - $12
Widowmaker Unit - $17
Wardog - $9

$81 Total

Add a Winterguard unit ($40) with UA ($9) and Kovnik Joe ($10) I could have a 35 point list (I'm still new so not sure it's optimal, but from what I've seen these are the standard units to get)

That's only $140

For a core to a 1500 points of Space Marines that is roughly standard (at least IMO):

HQ: Roughly $15-$20
3x Tactical Squads - $35 per unit, so $105 total
3x Rhinos or some form of transport - $30ish dollars a piece for $90 total

That's $215 -- and that's not even the full 1500 points. You still have to add elites, FA or HS.....

These costs are based on Ebay, so there could be some deviation (albeit minimal)

I understand that costs go up later down the road, but with WM, it feels like you get a lot more for the money......plus a decent company backing it and less rules-fighting amongst friends

So with that, yeah $400 may be a little hyperbolic, but it's not THAT far off. When we see that $215 for roughly 750 points of models and we need 750 more, it's going to be near/over $300 at least......

Just a thought for you people who want to compare prices. The only good way to compare is using MSRP as your basis. Some people may have access to special discounts others may not. Everyone has access to MSRP priced models if only from the manufacturer themselves.
Then build a list that you like from each game system (1500 40K is about 35 WM/H) find out the cost add in the cost of a basic rulebook and any other book that is required by the game. Total up the money it would take to make the lists and viola.
Then build a second list doing the same as above. "Buy" what ever other units, books or whatever, that you need add that to your total above and that should give you a more true idea of how much each game would cost you.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Just a thought for you people who want to compare prices. The only good way to compare is using MSRP as your basis. Some people may have access to special discounts others may not. Everyone has access to MSRP priced models if only from the manufacturer themselves.
Then build a list that you like from each game system (1500 40K is about 35 WM/H) find out the cost add in the cost of a basic rulebook and any other book that is required by the game. Total up the money it would take to make the lists and viola.
Then build a second list doing the same as above. "Buy" what ever other units, books or whatever, that you need add that to your total above and that should give you a more true idea of how much each game would cost you.

That's true, I hadn't noticed the previous post to my response was someone in Australia

 NickTheButcher wrote:
So I'm a long time 40k player who recently wanted to look into alternative TT games and came across WM. Initially this was mostly driven by cost and the way that GW essentially forces me to spend money unnecessarily (Death From The Skies ammiright?)

So, I just ordered the Prime MkII (Hardcover) and the 2 Player Battlebox ($80!!!!). I like both Khador and Menoth factions but plan to play Khador (those Man-O-War models look fantastic).

Now to convince my 40k Circle to join me (I'm going to give Menoth and mini rulebook to one of them as an incentive )

Any particular things I should consider adding? I've got dice and the other essential stuffs (aside from counters and templates).

Also, if I wanted to upgrade the Khador side to 25 points, what's an efficient way to do so? I'm comfortable with just about any play style, so any common addition that works well with what comes in the box is something I'm all for considering.

Thanks!

Welcome to the Motherland, Comrade! *Bear hug and gives you a big bottle of vodka* Here's to hoping you can convince your other players to defect .

Yes those Man O Wars are awesome! If you want one of the most powerful melee units in the game, get Demo Corp. Cheaper, hit harder, but less armor.

As to your question, I suggest a unit of Iron Fang Pikemen. These are some of the best melee troops in the game, that knockdown can really hurt and, even though they have only one hp, their shield wall ability can help them get tot hat target and hold locations.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I like the mortars. Quirky but nonetheless effective troop killers. Just don't try moving them around, at all.

Hell, even Winterguard are made more effective if you take the unit attachment (okay, the Grapshot ability that the attachment gives the WG can get absolutely sick).

Just some suggestions, have fun Comrade!

HAHA can i base 40k off US pricing please i will freely admit the pricing system of WM/h is a universal price as far as i can see... aussies tend to get ripped by GW..

anyway.. for a 1500 pt list of 40k i went with
1 lord $20
10 cultist $20
2 squads of 7 PM $90
5 oblits in 2 squads $80

so $200 bucks, for models, RB from ebay another 20 and 50 for codex... so 270 all up

now whats WM cost not using a box set to start with? roughly the same id dare say...

edit:just realised thats a 1k list my bad. max apologies

anyway of the WM i have played so far and its not alot i am enjoing it... back to guessing distances... and the real punishment of when you stuff that up (caster assasinations) but live and learn...

I just took the first 1500 point 40K army and added in the codex and the BRB Necrons at 1500
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/517355.page
The total cost was 539.29 MSRP and that allowed for 2 extra scarab bases being included for free.

Then I took the first 35 point Warmahordes list that I saw added in Primal and a set of tokens EKaya 35 points
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/516806.page
The total came to 241.92 MSRP

I bought everything a la carte since I don't know what is included in some box sets. I also make no judgement as to the quality of either list since I just took the first ones that showed up on the thread lists. All prices in US$.

RegalPhantom wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

It's also not entirely about cost. It's about business practice and GW's asinine marketing and logic (if any) -- the fact that they will stop at nothing to force customers to spend extra money is ridiculous. I get they are a business and need to make money, but there are much better ways to go about it. The last 2 months have been my line in the sand with the Death From The Skies compendium, to the NA trade policy and finally the cancelling of open play in GW stores. It's almost like they WANT to go out of business.... /rant

I'm glad I'm not the only one leaving the game because of their business practices. The prices were part of what got me to look at Warmahordes, but what really did it in for me was their new trade policies restricting online sellers and hurting local stores. That, combined with their low standard for their rules, the rising costs, and the a rampant imbalance were the death blow to GW for me. Also, if I may ask, when did they cancel open play in their stores? I admit I haven't payed any attention to GW since February, but still that is quite surprising that they don't let people play their games in their stores (if I'm interpreting that correctly).

I found that thread....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/516952.page

Welcome. Godspeed.

Comparing prices is a bit misleading. There will be high points and low points to all games and army builds.

Try running tier lists, they get pricey.


But as someone who has 200+ points of Cryx and 50+ points of Gators, I will say that a unit swap or a caster swap can massively change the stratgey of your list. I run subpar units with odd ball casters just to see what happens. And if you play it right, it's still able to win (ymmv).