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Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
Six is optimal for warmachine crews purely on the basis of with less then that on average your not killing the three models. I still find units of 10 to be the scariest units I've ever come up against, that includes double A-bombs, K'Daai etc

Why would anyone take 10 K'Daii?

No mate not ten K'daai I was comparing how scary it is to play against 10 hexwraiths in comparison to double abombs/k'daai destroyer

Ah I get you now

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
But you also don't want to be held in one combat, not wiping them out in that turn leaves you more prone to charges and static combat res

Typically this, i find more often then not it is better to over run then get stuck, rarely do I get side charged when I overrun, but when you get stuck in a combat you didn't intend to get stuck in, here come the side charges.

 jonolikespie wrote:

They can run through a skaven abomination, hit it with 5 S5 flaming attacks that ignore armour, then have Danse Macabre cast on them, run back through it and kill it in 1 turn. Even better is that they can do that with no threat to them.

Wouldn't this likely result in a severely wounded Abomb and a dead unit of wraiths? Most Abombs I run into have magic attacks, so just approaching it to set this up is dangerous. Once you run through it twice, he will likely be left with a single wound, he then turns and smashes the hexwraiths. Of course if you are allowed to pivot block, then you may be safe.

With all the magic shooting, magic missles, and large static rez units, I would think Skaven in general would be a bad match for hexwraiths. .

How would the abomination hurt the wraiths, does it have magical attacks?

hinge wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

They can run through a skaven abomination, hit it with 5 S5 flaming attacks that ignore armour, then have Danse Macabre cast on them, run back through it and kill it in 1 turn. Even better is that they can do that with no threat to them.

Wouldn't this likely result in a severely wounded Abomb and a dead unit of wraiths? Most Abombs I run into have magic attacks, so just approaching it to set this up is dangerous. Once you run through it twice, he will likely be left with a single wound, he then turns and smashes the hexwraiths. Of course if you are allowed to pivot block, then you may be safe.

With all the magic shooting, magic missles, and large static rez units, I would think Skaven in general would be a bad match for hexwraiths. .

BaconUprising wrote:How would the abomination hurt the wraiths, does it have magical attacks?

They can have magical attacks yes, but I have averaged 3 wounds per run through with 5 hexies so it is dead after running through twice. Upping the unit to 7 works to to ensure it dies or else 2 units of 5 so if it does have 1 wound left it can only turn and kill 1 unit of them then die to the other.
Point is flaming great weapon attacks with no armour save and rarely getting attacks back is nasty.

As regards the war machine discussion, Matt makes a good point about not wanting to kill them on the charge, really. To you guys who are afraid of getting stuck in combat and getting charged in the flank or something, I wonder who or what you're playing against. I don't know if I've ever seen a unit that can kill Hexwraiths get held back to protect a war machine, of all things, because if that situation happened the Hexwraiths would just go elsewhere and that protector unit (which is expensive enough to have magical attacks) is just wasted. Maybe Dwarves castling in the corner would be able to pull this off?

Since war machines are in the back field, getting into combat with them means that very little (if anything) is in a position to counter-charge you if you don't win combat on the first turn.

What I HAVE seen a LOT, though, is war machines being placed right next to each other, such that if you kill one and overrun, you aren't overrunning into the other one, nor are you in a position where you can charge on your next turn (you're facing the enemy's back table edge). That means it takes 3 turns to kill 2 war machines if you overrun, while reforming after you kill one allows you to accomplish that feat in only 2 turns.

Again, it makes me wonder what you're playing against, and makes me think that you're just playing devil's advocate, here. Is it POSSIBLE that your Hexwraiths will get combo charged? Of course. Is it LIKELY? I would say no. Raising that point seems like a waste of time.

Chaos dwarfs, as all ironsworn have magic weapons. A unit of horrors chilling in the back field near their cannon, dwarf heroes etc their just off the top of my head units that could upset hexwraiths which would realistically be near war machines

Lol, Chaos Dwarves was your example? I know, I know.

Look, the point is that it's irrelevant. If you're using Hexwraiths and your opponent holds back a unit to protect his war machines, you use the Hexwraiths for something else. Or, if you really want the war machines, just run through them - you're fast cav with an awesome special ability. You simply don't have to worry about getting flanked charged with one of the most versatile units in the book that are also ethereal.

But I still fall back on my other point which is that I've never seen it happen, and I don't think that enough opponents/armies would/could make the mistake of holding back a unit to protect a war machine from Hexwraiths (who will get it if they want it) such that you should consider it likely enough to argue. And I already conceded Dwarves.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
Chaos dwarfs, as all ironsworn have magic weapons. A unit of horrors chilling in the back field near their cannon, dwarf heroes etc their just off the top of my head units that could upset hexwraiths which would realistically be near war machines

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty happy if somebody uses an expensive special choice to babysit warmachines.
Against daemons, you're pretty much just screwed. Just about anything will take them out.

-Matt

Anything ethereal is utterly stupid against daemons. I think he means though that the irinsworn may be near the war machine not guarding it.

BaconUprising wrote:
Anything ethereal is utterly stupid against daemons. I think he means though that the irinsworn may be near the war machine not guarding it.

Movement 3 has a hard time catching movement 8 fast cav unless you do something stupid.

-Matt

Magical missiles. Hell almost every banner they have can put a dent in a hexwraith unit.

i was gonna run my hexwraiths like this

5 hexwraiths
1 hellwraith

and run 2 groups of these

the hellwraiths are probably gonna be Ringwraiths from the Lotr tabletop game, idk why but i just like using Ringwraiths for characters

at that size hellwraiths aren't worth it. It's been argued that running them 10 strong is good for getting into combat and then you want one, but at less than 10 strong you want to be running through, not charging, you don't get the extra attach running through and it's a waste of points.

 jonolikespie wrote:
at that size hellwraiths aren't worth it. It's been argued that running them 10 strong is good for getting into combat and then you want one, but at less than 10 strong you want to be running through, not charging, you don't get the extra attach running through and it's a waste of points.

You'd have a hard time making less then 10 work in combat.
With 10, you can continuously win combat.
With 6, you won't win on your own. You can just jump in wherever you want either. With crumble hitting all units if you lose combat, you have to be really careful about where you put them.
Black Knights, Blood Knights, and Black Coaches don't give up very much combat res.
If you're running a vampire lord on dragon, having the unit champ and hexwraiths would let the hexwraith champion soak the challenge for the dragon.

Basically, you have to try hard to make worthwhile.

-Matt

Huh, yea I get that anything less than 10 is no good in combat, if you are running less you should not be engaging your enemy but rather charging through, where the unit champ doesn't get his extra attack.

well i will be running with a Black Coach so ill probably crash them into whatever its fighting, and im taking a hellwraith mainly for fluff

 Grimmor wrote:
well i will be running with a Black Coach so ill probably crash them into whatever its fighting, and im taking a hellwraith mainly for fluff

Black Coach is in the same boat as hex wraiths. Vampires have a short list of units that play well together. It kind of splits up your army.
Not saying you can't do it, it just takes a lot more planning than pointing the Red Fury vampire at the enemy.

-Matt