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 Deadshot wrote:
And I'm almost certain a Stormraven/Storm Eagle/ Thunderhawk would be able to. I mean they are sealed enough resist space so they could survive water, and they have turbines to propel them.

Well, the pressurization needs of space and water are exactly opposite, so I wouldn't bet on it. I'm reminded of a scene from Futurama where their ship was sinking underwater. "How many atmospheres of pressure can the ship take, Professor?" "Well, it's intended to fly in the vacuum of space, so anywhere between zero and one." *ship begins to crumple*

Bludbaff wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
And I'm almost certain a Stormraven/Storm Eagle/ Thunderhawk would be able to. I mean they are sealed enough resist space so they could survive water, and they have turbines to propel them.

Well, the pressurization needs of space and water are exactly opposite, so I wouldn't bet on it. I'm reminded of a scene from Futurama where their ship was sinking underwater. "How many atmospheres of pressure can the ship take, Professor?" "Well, it's intended to fly in the vacuum of space, so anywhere between zero and one." *ship begins to crumple*

Leela: "Depth at 45 hundred feet... 48 hundred, 50 hundred. 5,000 feet."
Professor: "Dear lord! That's over 150 atmospheres of pressure!"
Fry: "How many atmospheres can the ship withstand?"

wait for it...

Professor: "Well, it's a spaceship... so I'd say anywhere between zero and one."


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Bludbaff wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
And I'm almost certain a Stormraven/Storm Eagle/ Thunderhawk would be able to. I mean they are sealed enough resist space so they could survive water, and they have turbines to propel them.

Well, the pressurization needs of space and water are exactly opposite, so I wouldn't bet on it. I'm reminded of a scene from Futurama where their ship was sinking underwater. "How many atmospheres of pressure can the ship take, Professor?" "Well, it's intended to fly in the vacuum of space, so anywhere between zero and one." *ship begins to crumple*

Woooops, I probably should have read you full post before I quoted you, well played sir.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well I remember reading that with his helmet on a marine could basically survive in void indefinately in combination with Sus-An membranes to slow metabolic rate way down. So if they could do that, then a battle underwater isno problem. I believe its the DoW2 novel. Will check.

C.S. goto wrote that, disregard evertything he wrote.

And the multilung, the book I take as hard fact as far as fluff can go, the codex, says they can breathe in poisonous air and even water.

I'd just add, to a certain degree on the poison, there are still toxic climates which will off an Astartes in a matter of minutes.

Seriously, C.S. Goto is the guy who managed to turn a land raider into a razorback into different landraider in 3 pages. Also, backflipping terminators.

Good thing Goto didn't write the book I'm talking about then! Don't start assuming things. I know all about Goto and I wouldn't bother to quote in a fluff discussion.

And yes, there will be poisonous atmospheres too bad for SMs. Mortarion's homeworld springs to mind. Mortarion himself couldn't breathe at the worst parts so...

My bad, forgot that DoW2 books we're written by Roberson.

I got most of my info from the deathwatch RPG books. For note.

They had a detailed analysis on the SM suit somewhere.

Deadshot wrote:And the multilung, the book I take as hard fact as far as fluff can go, the codex, says they can breathe in poisonous air and even water.

I checked the current Codex last night and it turns out you are correct! The Codex seems to conflict with the Index Astartes regarding this detail.
Then again, I guess that only proves my suspicion regarding different sources telling different things on this topic too. I just didn't expect this from two GW books.

Hruotland wrote:Another case of authors didn't do their physics? Air can only take so much moisture. When maximum saturation is reached, humidity has 100%. When there is more, the water starts to fall out. If this happens over your head, it is called clouds, if it happens on your level, it is called fog. When temperature rises, the air is able to hold more water, before 100% humidity is reached, but how hot must the air be? I have heard heat and moisture make life miserable for people not accustomed to it in the monsoon, but never that someone drowned by breathing. Is this actually possible? Physician, anyone?

I certainly don't think the authors spent much time thinking about scientific background here, yet ... as a lay person, I don't see the problem (ignorance is a bliss!). If water only starts to fall out when humidity reaches 100%, what about air that has "only" 98%-99%? At some point, I could well imagine people having trouble separating sufficient air out of the atmosphere they breathe and basically asphyxiate.
I also understand that too much moisture in the air will cause issues with your lungs, but I take it that this is a long-term concern rather than something you'd notice right away? Hmmh.

On a sidenote, I believe that how much moisture the air can take would also depend on atmospheric pressure. That much I know.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I got most of my info from the deathwatch RPG books. For note.
They had a detailed analysis on the SM suit somewhere.

That'd be yet another source that tells a different story on a lot of things, yes.

Yeah the funny part would be SM with the bends due to coming up from the sea bed to fast.

They definitely cannot swim without some pretty beefy floaties...yeah that would be interesting.

A vehicle that can handle space has no guarantee whatsoever to be able to handle underwater. In fact the design principles of the two are so opposed that often the space vehicle has a lot of surface area to collect light/heat and to radiate excess radiation off that when it gets into water it crumples worse than a paper cup (which due to being fill-able with water is very resilient).

100% humidity is a really foggy day do you have trouble breathing? (you may have asthma or other lung issues if you do please see your doctor)
You can get some long term issues from living in cold damp places but this is usually long term and tied in with the prevalence of mold and poor health conditions (yer cold and damp get a fire going ya git).

I thought fog was more like ~90-97% humidity. Here I only know that it's also a matter of temperature..

Upon further reading it turns out that air can also be "supersaturated" beyond 100%, however. Guess I allowed myself to be confused by the percentage.
We need a weather guy in this thread!

I remember an Iron Snakes novel where there is a ecret cult that swims in a forbidden trial... Though im not sure they wear armour then

 Deadshot wrote:
Well, while they may not be able to swim, they could just walk along the seabed. Or take a Land Raider. And I'm almost certain a Stormraven/Storm Eagle/ Thunderhawk would be able to. I mean they are sealed enough resist space so they could survive water, and they have turbines to propel them.

Absolutely not on anything designed for high-altitude or space flight. Why? Because in the sky and space, pressure drops from one atmosphere to zero, and the craft attempts to explode outwards thanks to the pressure from the expanding air inside. Under water the pressure is incredibly high, hundreds and hundreds of times greater than that on the surface.

Turbines cant'r work both in the air and in fluid. The shape, yes, a pitched blade cuts through water or air, but the engines are entirely different. A Thunderhawk would fail utterly underwater, the turbines would stop, the engine would likely tear itself apart from the hydraulic shock and the body of the craft would potentially compress and be crushed like a tin can.

Land Raiders, well, perhaps if they were entirely sealed off, had air tanks for the reactor and properly valved exhausts to prevent water ingress but.... very unlikely.

A few people mention the Space Wolves Novels, I remember one of them I read yonks ago, so the details may be wrong. But Ragnar is death-rolled by a Hippocrocagrillapotamous or something and has a big underwater fight with it, then swims back to the canoe they are in.

Maybe SM armour is able to auto ballast itself like a submarine to allow the Marine to float, Ceramite might also be a lot lighter than everyone thinks being a fictional alloy and all.

 Miraclefish wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well, while they may not be able to swim, they could just walk along the seabed. Or take a Land Raider. And I'm almost certain a Stormraven/Storm Eagle/ Thunderhawk would be able to. I mean they are sealed enough resist space so they could survive water, and they have turbines to propel them.

Absolutely not on anything designed for high-altitude or space flight. Why? Because in the sky and space, pressure drops from one atmosphere to zero, and the craft attempts to explode outwards thanks to the pressure from the expanding air inside. Under water the pressure is incredibly high, hundreds and hundreds of times greater than that on the surface.

Turbines cant'r work both in the air and in fluid. The shape, yes, a pitched blade cuts through water or air, but the engines are entirely different. A Thunderhawk would fail utterly underwater, the turbines would stop, the engine would likely tear itself apart from the hydraulic shock and the body of the craft would potentially compress and be crushed like a tin can.

Land Raiders, well, perhaps if they were entirely sealed off, had air tanks for the reactor and properly valved exhausts to prevent water ingress but.... very unlikely.

You assume that its impossible to make an engine thats capable of operating in water and in space, having the componants to be in both.

As for Land Raiders, they have Nuclear Reactors. The only air needed would be for the crew to breath. And it is stated many times that Land Raiders are indeed amphibious.

And in regards to the crew, due to Machine Spirit, there needs be none. And if there is they can where their armour wifh O2 supply.

 Deadshot wrote:
And in regards to the crew, due to Machine Spirit, there needs be none. And if there is they can where their armour wifh O2 supply.

While a Land Raider can function on its own, its not as effective as if it has a crew. The Machine Spirit enhances the abilities of the Land Raider and reduces the needed crew.

My vote = Sink Like a Stone.

But I can't recall it coming up in any of the books I've read.

For an adolescent to become a genuine Space Marine he has to undergo some pretty gruesome stuff. As mentioned earlier, one of them is the Multi Lung which explicitly states confers the ability to breath in water. They also have their musculature and tissues augmented for faster and more defined growth but I don't recall them having the density of their bones altered so they probably still buoyant if their held their breath.

Now, in fairness, they do have Power Armor which is quite heavy but is clearly capable of withstanding changes in pressure. SM are ground troops, they wear heavy armor to protect themselves from weapons fire, but they fight quite commonly in inter-atmospheric engagements which means that they are subject to the gravity of many varieties of planets (some quite a bit weaker than Terra, some quite a bit stronger).

Additionally, the armor can withstand impact from Autcannons (low rade tank rounds) so I think it's both thick and dense enough NOT to crush them under pressure.

Their bones are altered as well, they eat special ceramic compounds to strengthen them through the Ossmodula.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Progenoid#Progenoids

Of course this shouldn't alter the body's density all that much.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
And in regards to the crew, due to Machine Spirit, there needs be none. And if there is they can where their armour wifh O2 supply.

While a Land Raider can function on its own, its not as effective as if it has a crew. The Machine Spirit enhances the abilities of the Land Raider and reduces the needed crew.

Source please? I suppose the Land Raider alone wpuld a bit less tactical and more animalistic but thats not nessecarily ineffective.

Just logic, its not going to be as functional as a true intelligence. Remember a Machine Spirit isn't a true AI. Its more like what were have nowdays, a simple logic engine that puts in parameters and responds according to a set and finite list of reactions. It can't think for itself or truly learn.

I have never heard that. As far as I'm aware, Machine Spirit is an entirely functioning "being," with emotion and that, but just has linited "intelligence." For example a Power Armour's machine spirit is very basic, akin to fish sentience. A Rhino may be more advanced but still pretty "dumb" with linited physical imput. And the Land Raider being more akin to something just off human. Emotional driven rather than thought but capable of the latter. Leading all the way up to Titan which are basically true AI, memeries, feeligs, grudges vs old rivals, etc. At least this is the way I feel its is presented.

Again something where the sources will differ. To me, it was always apparent that it is the contemporary human habit of cursing your car or PC when it doesn't work, and dialed up to eleven so that people actually believe it contains an entity.

In case of the Land Raider, I do remember a GW cross-section poster showing a human brain in a jar labeled "machine spirit".

From the Black Library Grey knight Omnibus there was a section in "Dark Mechanicus" where they had to pass a moat of liquid quicksilver and the Grey Knight sergeant states directly they can infact swim, and we would be surprised what they have been trained to do in PA suits. There is also a section about PA being an enclosed environment and able to be used in deep space with no drawbacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
I have never heard that. As far as I'm aware, Machine Spirit is an entirely functioning "being," with emotion and that, but just has linited "intelligence." For example a Power Armour's machine spirit is very basic, akin to fish sentience. A Rhino may be more advanced but still pretty "dumb" with linited physical imput. And the Land Raider being more akin to something just off human. Emotional driven rather than thought but capable of the latter. Leading all the way up to Titan which are basically true AI, memeries, feeligs, grudges vs old rivals, etc. At least this is the way I feel its is presented.

Read "Titanticus" by abnett. Good insight into the titan Machine Spirit

 Lynata wrote:

Deadshot wrote:And the multilung, the book I take as hard fact as far as fluff can go, the codex, says they can breathe in poisonous air and even water.

I checked the current Codex last night and it turns out you are correct! The Codex seems to conflict with the Index Astartes regarding this detail.
Then again, I guess that only proves my suspicion regarding different sources telling different things on this topic too. I just didn't expect this from two GW books.

Hruotland wrote:Another case of authors didn't do their physics? Air can only take so much moisture. When maximum saturation is reached, humidity has 100%. When there is more, the water starts to fall out. If this happens over your head, it is called clouds, if it happens on your level, it is called fog. When temperature rises, the air is able to hold more water, before 100% humidity is reached, but how hot must the air be? I have heard heat and moisture make life miserable for people not accustomed to it in the monsoon, but never that someone drowned by breathing. Is this actually possible? Physician, anyone?

I certainly don't think the authors spent much time thinking about scientific background here, yet ... as a lay person, I don't see the problem (ignorance is a bliss!). If water only starts to fall out when humidity reaches 100%, what about air that has "only" 98%-99%? At some point, I could well imagine people having trouble separating sufficient air out of the atmosphere they breathe and basically asphyxiate.
I also understand that too much moisture in the air will cause issues with your lungs, but I take it that this is a long-term concern rather than something you'd notice right away? Hmmh.

On a sidenote, I believe that how much moisture the air can take would also depend on atmospheric pressure. That much I know.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I got most of my info from the deathwatch RPG books. For note.
They had a detailed analysis on the SM suit somewhere.

That'd be yet another source that tells a different story on a lot of things, yes.

When you have 98%+ humidity, you have Florida. Hot as hell, miserable as all feth... but not lethal to the average person who takes even slightly reasonable precautions (that is, avoid physical exertion, and if you must physically exert yourself, hydrate, hydrate, hydrate!). You can breathe with humidity at 100%, too. People don't suffocate in rainstorms... and if you've got a third lung that allows you to breathe underwater? Well, so much the better.

There is also the instance of Rafen floating/swimming to the surface in the Black Tide novel from the Blood Angel series. So it seems they dont exactly sink to the bottom, but have some sort of flotation or swim capability.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Just logic, its not going to be as functional as a true intelligence. Remember a Machine Spirit isn't a true AI. Its more like what were have nowdays, a simple logic engine that puts in parameters and responds according to a set and finite list of reactions. It can't think for itself or truly learn.

Rynns Might would like to disagree. It's crew died and it got so fetchingissed off it singlehandedly shot/crushed an ork warband apart before being forced to stop due to the ork clogging its tracks, then overloaded it's plasma reactor when they boarded.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Just logic, its not going to be as functional as a true intelligence. Remember a Machine Spirit isn't a true AI. Its more like what were have nowdays, a simple logic engine that puts in parameters and responds according to a set and finite list of reactions. It can't think for itself or truly learn.

Rynns Might would like to disagree. It's crew died and it got so fetchingissed off it singlehandedly shot/crushed an ork warband apart before being forced to stop due to the ork clogging its tracks, then overloaded it's plasma reactor when they boarded.

Thats not exactly what I would call success. It does show what it is capable of, but it would still be much better with a Crew.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
From the Black Library Grey knight Omnibus there was a section in "Dark Mechanicus" where they had to pass a moat of liquid quicksilver and the Grey Knight sergeant states directly they can infact swim, and we would be surprised what they have been trained to do in PA suits. There is also a section about PA being an enclosed environment and able to be used in deep space with no drawbacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
I have never heard that. As far as I'm aware, Machine Spirit is an entirely functioning "being," with emotion and that, but just has linited "intelligence." For example a Power Armour's machine spirit is very basic, akin to fish sentience. A Rhino may be more advanced but still pretty "dumb" with linited physical imput. And the Land Raider being more akin to something just off human. Emotional driven rather than thought but capable of the latter. Leading all the way up to Titan which are basically true AI, memeries, feeligs, grudges vs old rivals, etc. At least this is the way I feel its is presented.

Read "Titanticus" by abnett. Good insight into the titan Machine Spirit

I have, that's influence of my interpretation. The titan in Betrayerlso does to a small extent.

guardsmen can swim, doesnt make them effective at combat in open water....


thats what boats are for ya know

 Deadshot wrote:
I have never heard that. As far as I'm aware, Machine Spirit is an entirely functioning "being," with emotion and that, but just has linited "intelligence." For example a Power Armour's machine spirit is very basic, akin to fish sentience. A Rhino may be more advanced but still pretty "dumb" with linited physical imput. And the Land Raider being more akin to something just off human. Emotional driven rather than thought but capable of the latter. Leading all the way up to Titan which are basically true AI, memeries, feeligs, grudges vs old rivals, etc. At least this is the way I feel its is presented.

For the most part, Imperials have a very animistic understanding of technology, and attribute agency to tools that have no AI component whatsoever. I'm pretty sure they would believe that a wrench, for example, has a machine spirit that makes it able to tighten bolts. When the phrase is used, sometimes it refers to an actual computer control system, and sometimes it's just the religious dogma. So the examples you've given are pretty much correct (except maybe the power armor, I'm not sure if it has any level of AI interface or if it just responds to unconscious impulses from the Black Carapace). But Imperials see those quasi-AIs as part of a continuum that includes all levels of technology, and they're just as likely to venerate the spirit of their bolter as their rhino.

Rynns Might would like to disagree. It's crew died and it got so fetchingissed off it singlehandedly shot/crushed an ork warband apart before being forced to stop due to the ork clogging its tracks, then overloaded it's plasma reactor when they boarded.

It really should be reclaimed and returned to service by the Angry Marines.

I remember reading that the Land Raider Template are built for all terrian exploration. Including underwater.

Forget the angry marines, it should join the DeathWatch xenos hatred at it's highest