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USR do transfer unless specifically stated i.e feel no pain death company models

SR do not transfer unless specifically stated, ie Mark of Death or Hyperspace Hunter etc (faq set aside for RC)

Chris Lysander wrote:
USR do transfer unless specifically stated i.e feel no pain death company models

SR do not transfer unless specifically stated, ie Mark of Death or Hyperspace Hunter etc (faq set aside for RC)

For special rules it depends on the rule.

1. A model with this special rule...: Only the model benefits from the rule. (example FNP)
2. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule...: As long as one model has the rule, every model in the unit benefits. (example Stealth)
3. A unit that consists entirely of models with this special rule...: The special rule applies to the whole unit as long as every model has it. (example Fleet)

Chris Lysander wrote:
USR do transfer unless specifically stated i.e feel no pain death company models

SR do not transfer unless specifically stated, ie Mark of Death or Hyperspace Hunter etc (faq set aside for RC)

There is no distinction between Special Rules and Universal Special Rules. The are all Special Rules, and do not transfer from unit to IC (or vice versa) unless stated in the rule itself. Happyjew has outlined the main ways in which this is stated outright.

The issue I have is this is an older codex, so I can't be sure what the meaning behind the terminology use might mean, in connection to 6th edition rules.

That leaves this squarely in the 'I have no clue' category, because they do use the word unit within the special rule itself but don't make it clear if they intended for it to work with Independent Characters. The exact term they use is DeathMark unit, so you can see part of the problem there. I have no clue if they are talking about the unit as a whole, in which case an independent character is included. They could easily be using the name of the unit to mean models that start within the unit, in which case the independent character clearly is not but a Royal Court member would be.

This all comes back to the 'unit type' section, that stupid bloody page that should of been 'model type,' and the fact it is very likely they have duel terms for the word unit and could be using either one in this situation.

I'm not honestly sure how someone could read the independent character rules and then still come to the conclusion that Imotekh does not count as a part of the unit. The rules are rather clear.

I still stand by my statement that this is not a very good combo however; given he effectively negates their ability to deepstrike if you join them together in reserves (and/or cannot deploy with them at all and would need to be on the board relatively close to where you deepstrike them in in order to join them), and at str 8 the lightning will wound on a 2+ versus virtually everything anyway.

Whomever said that the 'Hunters from Hyperspace' special rule is not a 'Universal' special rule is technically correct, though that is a semantic difference at best.

Necron Codex pg 36
Hunters from Hyperspace
When a deathmark unit deploys, choose a non-vehicle enemy unit on the battlefield (even a unit in a transport) to be there prey - place a counter next to the chosen unit to serve as a reminder. Any deathmark UNIT that shoots at, or strikes a blow against, a unit marked in this fashion will score a wound on a roll of 2+.

RB pg 39
Independent Character
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for ALL RULES purposes, though he still follows rules for characters.


HE GETS THE SPECIAL RULE...
This argument is so done

KonTheory wrote:
Necron Codex pg 36
Hunters from Hyperspace
When a deathmark unit deploys, choose a non-vehicle enemy unit on the battlefield (even a unit in a transport) to be there prey - place a counter next to the chosen unit to serve as a reminder. Any deathmark UNIT that shoots at, or strikes a blow against, a unit marked in this fashion will score a wound on a roll of 2+.

RB pg 39
Independent Character
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for ALL SPECIAL RULES purposes, though he still follows rules for characters.


HE GETS THE SPECIAL RULE...
This argument is so done

Well yeah, of course the argument is done when you misquote the rules and ignore other parts you don't like. The quote from page 39 is "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows rules for characters."
The word special isn't used at all.

And you're ignoring the section on the same page "Special Rules" where it says "Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and " vice versa.

So any attached IC's absolutely don't receive the "Hunters from Hyperspace" rule, so the question becomes "Is 'the Deathmark unit' sufficient to include attached IC's?" I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion, but you weaken your argument when you doctor quotes and don't deal with sections that may cast doubt on your conclusions.

I'm of the opinion that a non-Deathmark model attached doesn't benefit from the rule - as mentioned above, special rules need to state they transfer. The ones that do simply say "unit". For the rule not to transfer to ICs is the only reason for the term "Deathmark unit" to be used. I would think that GW somehow thought that all the players would then pull out their crystal balls and see that that was somehow supposed to make it apply to Royal Court members, otherwise there would be no reason to use "Deathmark unit" at all and simply say "model with this rule" instead...

Oh. And one more thing. I appreciate the confusion for us hoary old vets, but please please please drill this next bit into your heads:
There is no such thing as "universal" special rules any more.

Ok yes, I added special.. my mistake, wasn't my intent to botch that


Automatically Appended Next Post:
fixed it.. but still.. a rule is a rule.. special or not

True, it is a rule. And of course, an IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes (point 1).
*BUT* we're also told that special rules don't transfer to joined ICs unless specified. (point 2) This, by its very definition, is also a rule.

If you give the attached IC a rule that doesn't state it transfers, you've broken point 2 in trying to apply point 1. Not only is point 2 more specific, but if you have an IC as a member without special rules transferring, *they are still a member of that unit*, having the unit's special rules isn't a prerequisite, so nothing is broken. This is why the special rules each state "model" or "unit".

To reverse it, if you're saying an attached IC picks up all properties of a unit it joins, that means it must also:
1) pick up the profile of that unit as well, since characteristics are rules
2) lose its own special rules as well as unit type, since the unit didn't have them and the IC is now a member.

While I do believe any IC will benefit from the rule, the Lord of Storms special rule is not a shooting attack FROM Imhotek based on the definition of shooting attacks in the BRB and the rule in the codex, so the lightning strike gains no benefit (so no 2+ to wound WK and WL).

Furthermore, if it WAS a shooting attack from Imhotek, the first model/unit hit by the lightning strike would HAVE to be the target the rest of the Deathmarks shoot at, because a unit has to fire at the same target.

The rule doesnt transfer; the effect of it does

An IC without stealth joining a unit WITH stealth does not gain the stealth rule, just the benefit of it

Hunters is a rule that affects the whole DM unit; the IC is a member of the unit, and so is affected by it. He never gains the rule

Same as Painboy with Warboss

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rule doesnt transfer; the effect of it does

An IC without stealth joining a unit WITH stealth does not gain the stealth rule, just the benefit of it

Hunters is a rule that affects the whole DM unit; the IC is a member of the unit, and so is affected by it. He never gains the rule

Same as Painboy with Warboss

This is all true, because the rules state "unit". The issue is that this rule states "Deathmark unit"... and it's then FAQed to make it clear this applies to Royal Court attached characters, but makes no mention of ICs.
If it's genuinely supposed to apply to ICs as well:

1) why does the rule not simply just say "unit", as Stealth, Hunters and FNP (and all the rest) do?
2) why did the FAQ specify the Royal Court in particular?

 Super Ready wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rule doesnt transfer; the effect of it does

An IC without stealth joining a unit WITH stealth does not gain the stealth rule, just the benefit of it

Hunters is a rule that affects the whole DM unit; the IC is a member of the unit, and so is affected by it. He never gains the rule

Same as Painboy with Warboss

This is all true, because the rules state "unit". The issue is that this rule states "Deathmark unit"... and it's then FAQed to make it clear this applies to Royal Court attached characters, but makes no mention of ICs.
If it's genuinely supposed to apply to ICs as well:

1) why does the rule not simply just say "unit", as Stealth, Hunters and FNP (and all the rest) do?
2) why did the FAQ specify the Royal Court in particular?

I would believe the reason it is written differently is because it was written for 5e, and how they formatted the books back then, instead of 6e.

How dose it specify for the RC? Dose it say the RC counts as part of the unit for all accounts like IC, but lacks the part where they can leave like an IC, or is it written too different for us to make that connection?

It is stated "Deathmarks unit" in the event the player has multiple Deathmark units in play.
Each unit of Deathmarks, ic's included can share thier hunted targets with any other Deathmarks unit. Wounding any of them on 2+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They could of just ad easily wrote Deathmarks model and accomplished the exact same thing and excluded ice, rc

Slayith - that does make sense, but it's made clear from the FAQ that RC characters (at least) are supposed to be included.

And? the IC is a member of the Deathmark Unit, as he IS a normal member of the unit for ALL rules purposes.

Nos, does the rule specify it affects attached ICs? If not it doesn't work.

So a painboy doesnt give the whole unit, including the IC, FNP?

Technically stubborn doesn't specify it affects IC's and yet it does include IC's.

Edit: Contractions make the sentence.

 Happyjew wrote:
Nos, does the rule specify it affects attached ICs? If not it doesn't work.

Affected != Conferred. The latter is what page 39 states.

The IC rules specify the rule is not *conferred* to the IC. Which it doesnt have to be for the IC to *benefit* from the rule.

not sure if this is mentioned (kinda skimmed the last few pages), but a RC member attached to a squad does not count as a member of that squad for everything. if all the deathmarks die, and only the RC guy is left up, no RP rolls for the deathmarks. only an EL roll for the court member. and as soon as the last deathmark goes away, all the RP counters go with him.

But thats because that is specified as such in the rules for EL.

It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

 Super Ready wrote:


1) why does the rule not simply just say "unit", as Stealth, Hunters and FNP (and all the rest) do?

Because it was not only intended for the unit that "marked" the target to benefit from that mark. If you had more than one unit of Deathmarks in your army, each could mark a target and the other Deathmark unit could benefit from that mark. The specificity of the "Deathmark" modifier is required here.

2) why did the FAQ specify the Royal Court in particular?

Because, unlike the BRB rules that specifically address how to treat an IC that has joined a unit, the Necron book doesn't speak to this at all for the RC. Are they part of the unit or not? The Necron book says that they're still part of the RC after all. Since the RC are not ICs, the rules in the BRB concerning ICs do not apply to them, as such they lie in a grey area as far as rules transfer goes. Space Wolves have a similar issue with the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders that needed a fairly lengthy FAQ response to clarify.